Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[peteco]

We have been lifted for years and very happy with the setup, and handling.

As a side note, going up two inches in a 190 or 210 Chevy Roadtrek is actually not even a lift. It just gets you back to the GM recommended ride height, so all the steering and suspension work better, with improved geometry over stock.

Same here: have been lifted for 6 years and no regrets.

I also agree with Booster's comment about putting the vehicle back to GM recommended ride height helping. I found the alignment spec much easier to attain than before the lift. Tires have worn perfectly in over 50,000 miles.

I am adding this update here because there are frequent discussions about bottoming out and lift on other Roadtrek sites and I just point them to this discussion.

 

[Photog-ClassB]

Is this Sept 2012 summary a relatively current summary of the results of your valiant efforts? With over 30 pages it's hard for those of us not yet retired to read everything!

Appreciate the assist!

The only difference from 2012 is the use of Tuff Truck modified (set down) 1618 springs. Honestly, I don't know if TT makes any springs the same as these TTC-1618-Mod or the old TTC-1617's. I think the Erb springs and possibly one of the factory Diesel springs will be a better standard to go by. If I were buying springs today, I would likely go with Bill Erb's springs, as he has good knowledge and experience with our heavy Roadtreks.

 

[booster]

The only difference from 2012 is the use of Tuff Truck modified (set down) 1618 springs. Honestly, I don't know if TT makes any springs the same as these TTC-1618-Mod or the old TTC-1617's. I think the Erb springs and possibly one of the factory Diesel springs will be a better standard to go by. If I were buying springs today, I would likely go with Bill Erb's springs, as he has good knowledge and experience with our heavy Roadtreks.

Good to hear from you again, it has been a while, plus the update.

I decided to test a set of Erb springs last year, as he promised 3/4" higher than we are with the Tufftruk springs we have (that turned out are wrong at 1.030 wire instead of 1.060 wire) and smoother ride due to the 1.00 wire he uses.

Details here, warning it is ugly

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5/erb-spring-for-lifts-warning-6871.html

 

[Photog-ClassB]

Booster,
Wow, that is a bit ugly!

Way back, when I first started messing with the springs, I acquired a set of aluminum spring spacers. I believe they are 1" thick. This may lift the front suspension about 2", depending on how much the bump-stop was being engaged. Do you think the factory spring (gas engine) would compress to the solid position, with a 1" spacer installed? That factory spring has 2 less coils of the 1.00" wire (6 instead of our current 8 coils). Seems like there should be plenty of room.

 

[booster]

Booster,
Wow, that is a bit ugly!

Way back, when I first started messing with the springs, I acquired a set of aluminum spring spacers. I believe they are 1" thick. This may lift the front suspension about 2", depending on how much the bump-stop was being engaged. Do you think the factory spring (gas engine) would compress to the solid position, with a 1" spacer installed? That factory spring has 2 less coils of the 1.00" wire. Seems like there should be plenty of room.

That is a really tough one to guess, I think. The factory springs are pretty soft so they definitely would compress more than the bigger wire units.

I do think you could get a pretty close guess once the spring was out of the pocket by calculating the solid height by wire diameter and turns, and then measure how much space there would be from bump stop to the spacer. I would guess you would go about 1/2 the way down the bump stop in measuring. The good is that the factory springs don't have a lot of turns like the Tufftruk does, so they will have a lower solid height, but of course you might hit yield, too.

You had mentioned some porpoising with your current 1" springs after you put them in. Now that you have more time on them what do you think?

You might also be interested in the changes we made to the rear suspension lately, which has really worked out well for us.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8/get-rid-of-massive-chevy-overload-leaf-6715.html

 

[Photog-ClassB]

Here is another supplier of a 3" spindle lift. This one is welded chro-moly steel, instead of the cast ones from Boulder Off Road, that I have. They are expensive, and they won't solve any of the spring issues.

WeldTec Designs

https://weldtecdesigns.com/product/chevrolet-express-lift-spindle/

WeldTec also carries Fox shocks for these vans. They may have a good recommendation for the front shocks. I have sent them a request for info on the shock model that would fit our purposes.

 

[Mat Mobile]

Here is another supplier of a 3" spindle lift. This one is welded chro-moly steel, instead of the cast ones from Boulder Off Road, that I have. They are expensive, and they won't solve any of the spring issues.

WeldTec Designs

https://weldtecdesigns.com/product/chevrolet-express-lift-spindle/

WeldTec also carries Fox shocks for these vans. They may have a good recommendation for the front shocks. I have sent them a request for info on the shock model that would fit our purposes.

Brian, it's great to see you back on this forum. You've inspired many people to lift their Roadtreks! :bow:

GpnAz (build thread) and I (build thread) have both went with Weldtec Designs. Except my van is a 1998 and the install will be done at the beginning of March.

I believe the Fox shocks are assembled and valved at Weldtec designs shop but you'll have to check with the owner Jeremy. You might want to give him a call as he's really busy in the shop and works better by phone.

Just to let you know, he had a leaf pack built to my van's weight.

 

[Photog-ClassB]

Thanks Mat,
I just came across WeldTec, when I was looking for custom lower arms, to see if there is a way to use custom coil-overs in the front suspension. They had built a complete suspension system for a Quigley 4x4 Chevy Express, using coil-overs.

The last bit to do on our van is to get the front shocks figured out, and the rear springs (and probably shocks).

I believe our front suspension porpoises a bit, due to poor rebound control in the shocks. It sounds like GpnAZ may have the back-road suspension figured out.

 

[Mat Mobile]

Thanks Mat,
I just came across WeldTec, when I was looking for custom lower arms, to see if there is a way to use custom coil-overs in the front suspension. They had built a complete suspension system for a Quigley 4x4 Chevy Express, using coil-overs.

The last bit to do on our van is to get the front shocks figured out, and the rear springs (and probably shocks).

I believe our front suspension porpoises a bit, due to poor rebound control in the shocks. It sounds like GpnAZ may have the back-road suspension figured out.

Just to let you know, my kit includes a modified lower control arm (for ball joint angle) that was also upgraded with a uni-ball:

Actually, after talking with Jeremy about a week ago, he has all the pieces necessary to do a IFS 4x4 conversion on 2003+ chevy vans. So you don't need to go to Quigley's anymore. To my understanding he just has to make sure they're covering all the variations from one van to another.

Also, I think he can also offer Kings shocks.

He's gotten super busy since about 3 years ago when he started focusing on vans. So it's worth having a chat with him as not everything appears on his website.

 

[themexicandoctor]

"HELP, I NEED SOMEBODY*" like the Beatles song

*from anyone who has enjoyed long lasting success with lifting their Roadtreks - I have a 2004 190 Versatile

First entered this forum on page 26 in 2013 after studying this thread for many months & riding on the Engineering Giants Booster & Photog then having Bill Erb of Valley Spring Works give me what I believed was a 2.75inch lift up front.

(I had already worked with Supersprings in Santa Barbara who gave me 4 inch lift at the rear with a Helper Spring System plus oversized Bump Stops up front).

It worked fantastically, suddenly it drove like a Car although the ride was harsh in the back but only after I went overboard & had Bill add another Leaf Spring along with firing my existing springs in his oven.

I will try to add the photos in the next link of my present situation but in words the front KYB shock bushings are gone, the shocks are about to fracture & the coils appear to have fatigued with the chassis sitting on the oversize Supersprings bump stops (about 1.5 inches longer & thicker than OEM).

Has anyone had any lasting success with the two wheel drive roadtreks?

If so, what did you do?

Do I need to add different or custom control arms, different shocks, etc?

I did call Paul Dean at McAllister Industries who seems to have taken over from Randy (is this Otto Max), & asked if the 1618 or 1617 TuffTruck springs would work & he said there was some success but not with 2003-04 models* & that there was now a 1619 model?

*is this accurate? Did Chevy make a departure from design in those two years?

Can the 190 04 plug & play with the diesel springs or is the ride too harsh or they won't fit?

Or do I go back to Dixon & see Bill?

I am fairly handy but not overly mechanical & am NOT an Engineer - any work would be done by someone else in a shop - I read that many have had different results.

Any help, recommendations & suggestions would be appreciated greatly.

Thank you!

 

[themexicandoctor]

Photos

I hope the photos appear on this reply

 

[themexicandoctor]

More photos ...

Using Coke Cans as a scientific measure

 

[themexicandoctor]

More photos ...

And Coke Cans ...

You can see the difference between the 2 photos.

You can also see the oversized Rear Bump Stocks from Supersprings of Santa Barbara

 

[booster]

We haven't heard from you for a while, always good to get longer term feedback.

A few things related to Erb have happened while you were gone, including me buying a set of his springs to test as folks seemed to be getting very differing results with them. Here is a link to the thread on the test and results:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5/erb-spring-for-lifts-warning-6871.html

IMO, you results confirm what I suspected after the testing. Erb is making his springs to still for their size and load so the actually yield when being put in with spring compressor (that is why the varying results), and then sag over time. He is getting stiffness by over heat treating and using fewer coils and overstressing the material.

As for options, the Moog spring mentioned in the link will work. They are bigger wire, more coils, stock length and are essentially what we have from Ottomax that we got years ago. They will give about 1.75" lift over stock, or about 35.5-36" at the front wheelwells. Adding a 1/2" spacer would give you and inch higher, but starts to affect the alignment. If you were OK with handling before, you could do that. Other than that, you would be into another custom spring and have to have someone make them. You would want to be identical to the Moog spring but about 1/2" longer, with same wire size and material and number of coils.

The shocks thing is very common in the Chevies. All the aftermarket brands tend to use their own upper mounts which don't hold up. The solution is to use the stock GM upper mounts which will hold up fine with aftermarket shocks. I don't know if Bilsteins come with the GM mounts now or not, ours did not, so we used the GM ones when the Bilstein mounts failed in 300 miles.

Re the model year. 2003 was the model change for the vans. The 2003 up has longer springs than the previous versions. There is a possibility that a 2003 Roadtrek could be built on a 2002 van, so check the doorpost for the actually GM sticker to determine model year.

Unless you want to go very high, you don't need new control arms and such. I am not a fan of knuckle lifts like that, but others here like them. Getting up a couple of inches has been fine for us.

 

[themexicandoctor]

Thank you Booster - need some further clarification

I pored over this thread http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5/erb-spring-for-lifts-warning-6871.html but couldn't find any mention of a Moog Spring, there was simply a discussion between you & one other member talking about your long term results with Bill.

Maybe I need to search this original thread.

1. If you could please point me in the right direction as far as the parts numbers for the spring, the spacers*, shocks (do I need extended shocks perhaps from a Silverado?), etc.

But if I can find it on a thread, I can do the work.

2. Is there such a difference on the 2003-04 models between the other years? Did they make these 2 years differently & then go back to the original design?

3. I went to the truck & discovered that it was made in 06/2004 but the Roadtrek was blanked out from cleaning or age.

Once again, thank you. Wakefield

PS. For everyone who has tried reaching Bill, know that he was dealing in the last year or so with a very daunting medical condition of which I believe he is overcoming - perhaps this is why he hasn't been so communicative.

I have total respect for the guy & he did mention in passing that in a week or he was getting in a new shipment of stronger steel & could I wait until then.

 

[themexicandoctor]

The photos are visible on my girlfriend's computer on this thread - are they visible to you?

 

[booster]

Here is another thread that has the Moog numbers. 81004 is the spring

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8/new-front-springs-and-air-bags-2008-roadtrek-210-a-6322.html

The spacers are a bit tougher. I made a set of flat ones for our van that worked OK, but not a normal DIY job. You may be able to get taller spacers, like the 1 or 2 inch heights and have the cut down though. The only penalty of going without a spacer is a bit of lift, which really isn't all that bad as you still get good road clearance and ride. I will look around a bit and see if something new has shown up lately.

I hope Bill Erb gets well soon, wouldn't wish health issues on anyone. I do wonder about the material improvement though, as he was telling everyone the previous material was better than stock, but it was actually worse, it appears.

 

[themexicandoctor]

This is what I found while poring over the thread for Moog ...

See BELOW - THANK YOU AGAIN BOOSTER

I've been researching coil springs this week and found some info that would apply to 2003 & newer Express 3500 / Savana 3500 vans

I found some interchange part numbers for the Husky SC20470 springs peteco posted:

Husky SC20470
Moog 81006
ACDelco 45H0341
Napa 277-3436
Raybestos 585-1341

A choice for a bit more lift on 2003 & later model Savana and Express vans might be the Moog 81004.

ID: 4.068
Wire Dia: 1.031
Rate/Inch: 1570
Load at rated height: 5934
Rated compressed height: 14
Free length: 17.78

Interchange part numbers for it:

Moog 81004
ACDelco 45H0340
Napa 277-3435
Husky SC20468
Raybestos 585-1340

The Moog 81004 looks to be just a bit softer than original Tuftruck 1617's that may or may not still be available. I'm basing that opinion on Booster's compiled data here: http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...html#post17158

Verify all the above info for yourselves before buying or trying as I just turned this up through web searches.

 

[themexicandoctor]

I am now going on that link & seeing what I can find - I trust that when you worked with Bill you were impressed with his knowledge, skills & his character.

Dont know anything about steel & don't know if the steel he has used for others after my work in early 2013 has been variable* or not - sometimes the suppliers themselves are to blame for varying quality.

Maybe that is where the variable results have come from?

 

[booster]

I am now going on that link & seeing what I can find - I trust that when you worked with Bill you were impressed with his knowledge, skills & his character.

Dont know anything about steel & don't know if the steel he has used for others after my work in early 2013 has been variable* or not - sometimes the suppliers themselves are to blame for varying quality.

Maybe that is where the variable results have come from?

Actually, and really hate to badmouth Erb, I was totally unimpressed with the entire process of dealing with him. His lift claims were way off, as were his predicted ride quality, and he gave springs that couldn't even survive being compressed with a spring compressor by .4" without taking a set. He never returned calls, never sent Fedex to pick up the bad springs as promised, and stalled and lied about giving credit until I had only a week left to file a dispute with Visa. He finally gave credit when I told him I would file a dispute, nearly two months after the first promises.

In the initial contact, and later, he couldn't even give a springrate for what he would build, and his promise of lift went from 1.75 up to 3.5" depending on when he was talking.

I can tell you his spring design was very poor for the application. Not big enough wire size, not enough coils, made progressive but wasn't because of the load when in use, wrong material or heat treat.

Now seeing your results, what I got was not a fluke, and had been going on for years, so I would not recommend anyone use Erb at this point.

Very sad, but seems to be true. He does talk a big line, but he doesn't appear to actually be all that technically competent.