Advancing Alvar

[Davydd]

Advanced RV posted a new video describing their ordering process. It is a little bit different now than what we experienced. 3D image drawings were not available back then. That was not a concern of mine since I was adept at figuring out my own drawings and was able to work out details with them, but it would have been nice. We combined our first visit with their first Advanced Fest in May. Our initial selection period went fast since we had most things figured out ahead of time. We did return in the fall to see our selected raw cargo van and to work with a mockup articulated bed to confirm our design.

Our whole process was about 8 month then and could have been shorter if it weren't for the beds. They had at the time a room full of CPM (Critical Path Method) diagrams filling a room. They are now suggesting 12 months. There have been fast track deliveries such as accepting an already purchased van in inventory or taking advantage of buying one of their rentals.

Phone calls and emails were constant. You do work in a partnership manner. You do work with a whole team working on your RV and get to know them well. ARV delegates responsibility right down the line. If you know what you want to achieve this is the way to go as you get exactly what you want.

 

[B Eventually]

Losing the awning adds stealth and I don't look that much different from an airport shuttle van.

What other reason did leaving the awning off? There are 420 watts of solar panels on that roof. Do you see them? Barely if you are looking for them. They are flex panels tight to the roof instead of being hiked up on carriers to clear the awning that would shade them especially in the low sun angle winter, fall, spring.

We've found our Trend's awning about as useful as you did. We've used ours, but not enough to want one when we finally move up to a B.

How efficient have you found your flex panels? I imagine with a fast enough travel pace and large lithium bank, efficiency ceases to be a factor especially given the stealth benefits.

 

[avanti]

We've found our Trend's awning about as useful as you did. We've used ours, but not enough to want one when we finally move up to a B.

How efficient have you found your flex panels? I imagine with a fast enough travel pace and large lithium bank, efficiency ceases to be a factor especially given the stealth benefits.

We ordered our Legend without an awning for the reasons cited. Unfortunately, they screwed up and installed one any way. At least they didn't charge us for it.

 

[booster]

We had thought the same way about the awning for the first 6 years we had our Roadtrek. Essentially unused in that time. Then we spent a week in Zion National Park during a surprise late hot spell. 93-98*F highs for the whole time. Went hiking in the cooler mornings and rolled out the awning and took it easy under the awning in the heat of the day. Convinced us that hauling the awning around all that time was more than worth it, as it would have been tough time without it.

 

[GeorgeB-ClassB]

As usual, it all depends on individual lifestyles.

We find the most interesting use of an awning is to extend the living area. It defines the boundaries of the exterior area. The van becomes a house. It is also a ritual of establishing the camp area, much like lifting the top of a Westfalia.

It is not only useful for protecting from sun rays but also for cooking and eating outside when it rains. Sometimes we extend it just enough to protect the sliding door opening from the rain (see photo). We would love to install a sturdier setup (like class Cs) when using it in windy areas or a legless with a wind sensor but they would require an important structural retrofit of our small camper.

Slight extension of the awning to protect the sliding door opening.

Stopping for an hour in a rest area by the river.

Very useful when it rains!

.

 

[Keyne]

We rented a Sprinter B that didn't have an awning and we really missed it during rain when opening the side door. Also on sunny days I think it helps keep the van cooler when you can't find a spot in the shade but that might be more psychological than actually cooler but the shade seems to help.

 

[Davydd]

How efficient have you found your flex panels? I imagine with a fast enough travel pace and large lithium bank, efficiency ceases to be a factor especially given the stealth benefits.

I was discussing this subject in the Facebook, "B"ing in an Advanced RV just this week. Keep in mind this is in regard to an Advanced RV setup. This is what I posted.

"We have 420 watts of solar with the tight to the roof flexible panels. Their weight is not all that much I think to come into the consideration. If you leave your inverter on for 24/7 convenience to use your 120v AC systems and have your refrigerator on, you are going to draw down your battery 7-9 amps per hour doing nothing. That is 168-208 amps per day. You’ll actually use much more.

The Rule of Thumb: A 100 watt solar panel produces an average of about 6 amps per peak sun hour, or about 30 amp-hours per day. That is 126 amp-hours with a 420w setup. That would optimally cover the refrigerator but not much else. My observation is the rule of thumb is rather optimistic coming from solar manufacturers and true believers. If you camp in the southwest in the winter you are not going to meet that average on the best of sunny unobstructed desert days because of short hours and the fact flat panels with a low angle sun are going to be way on the low side of the “average”. In the more optimum summer, especially in the east, few park in unobstructed camp sites or desire to be in the full sun. In the south you will most likely seek shade or shore power, thus negating solar need.

So, for off grid boondocking, you will need to rely on your other systems of driving and engine idling. 30 minutes of idling or driving with the second alternator is equivalent to the best you can get out of your solar panels. When you are driving in the open you don’t need solar input. Stopping for an afternoon and staying overnight and heading out again in the morning is going to draw down about 200 amps off the battery under normal use. If you stayed 24 hours you are probably going to draw closer to 400 amps. The solar will never top off the batteries. The second alternator is way more efficient in time, certainty and convenience to charge batteries. You can do it transparently without engine idling touring locally daily while staying at a campground. Solar is basically a whipped cream and cherry topping.

Solar is probably more effective with traditional RV setups with around 200ah (2 lead-acid battery) capacity, no second alternator and not using an inverter for 120v AC systems and appliances. That is not a typical Advanced RV setup."

I later said to another response...

"If you are going to just sit for any length of time you could save a lot more turning off the inverter than you can gain in solar. I've done that parked in a driveway and the 800ah battery bank lasted a week with limited use, refrigerator on, no idling or driving and with the solar aid."

As for my panels I have three separate panels. Each panel is zoned so shading partly on a panel will not affect the output of the whole panel. I have an MPPT controller for each panel. Three total. The flex solar is backed with what looks like an ABS plastic board that is about 1/8" thick and trimmed on the edges with aluminum channels that fasten to a rain gutter railing. Since the metal Sprinter roof has spaced front to back ridges about an inch high the panels rest on the top of the ridges and follow the slight curvature of the roof. They are not adhered directly on a flat roof so there is air cooling circulation under them. There is an output meter I can read but not while driving because it is in the back under the beds. There is a computer app I could use with our internal wifi network to monitor that readout but it is Windows PC and I use a Mac so I never bothered about it. It hasn't been that important to me.

Here is the roof. Two panels in front and one in back behind the air conditioner.

 

[Davydd]

We carry a 14' x 14' Eddie Bauer screen tent if we want shade or sit outdoors in the rain. In Minnesota it is also great for bug and mosquito control. It folds up in an 8" x 8" x 28" canvas bag. We have plenty of room for it. In reality we seldom use it either. Mostly in northern Minnesota in the summer.

 

[avanti]

IMO, there are only two sensible scenarios of RV solar:
1) The folks who enjoy extreme power frugality while camping (I am not critical of these folks--it is as good a hobby as any other). If this is your taste, adding the biggest possible solar array can make a big difference, because the denominator of the fraction is small.

2) The folks (such as us) who store their rigs outdoors without access to shore power. In this case, even a small panel will keep your battery charged and happy and ready to go. In this scenario, there is little point in a large array.

For everybody else, it is mostly just kidding yourself.

Those low-profile panels that ARV likes to use look great--if I wanted more solar, I would be tempted. Note, however, that you pay a significant efficiency hit by not having a space for air to flow beneath the panels.

 

[wincrasher]

I only have 260 watts on the roof of my Travato. It can keep ahead of the refrigerator without any issues. I don't count on it for any serious battery charging. I'm fine with that - it eliminates any anxiety of running out of power due to the refer.

On my bus, I installed 960 watts. I have the residential refrigerator in that one - it can easily draw 10-12 amps depending on the weather. With the winter sun, I still got 145 amp hours out of the array for the day. Again, it can keep up with my refer, but the winter time it's still a death spiral. Summer should be alot better, with higher amps and much longer days.

 

[booster]

I think I would add a 1.5 group of solar users to Avanti's list. Those would be folks that aren't extreme power savers, may have a compressor frig, and use in the 50-100 amp hours of power a day. Usually, they would have a bit more than the common 200ah of battery bank, also, and probably 3-400 watts of solar.

A setup like that gives you enough solar to cover all usage in good sun and enough battery to cover bad sun. Worst case you get 4+ days off grid without moving, best case you can sit forever.

The solar is also an excellent way for those of us with AGM batteries to complete a large recharge of the batteries after driving to get most of it done.

Put in an engine generator or big alternator, and group 1.75 picks up even more by also having rapid recharge capability.:thumbup:

 

[Keyne]

We bought 200w solar just to trickle charge the van went not in use. I agree that anything else would be really expensive and for our typical use really not worth it. I think most people seem to think the solar will do more than it can but to make it really useful it's expensive and marked up by the RV manufacturers playing off the idea that it will do it all.

 

[skagitstan]

I think I would add a 1.5 group of solar users to Avanti's list. Those would be folks that aren't extreme power savers, may have a compressor frig, and use in the 50-100 amp hours of power a day. Usually, they would have a bit more than the common 200ah of battery bank, also, and probably 3-400 watts of solar.

A setup like that gives you enough solar to cover all usage in good sun and enough battery to cover bad sun. Worst case you get 4+ days off grid without moving, best case you can sit forever.

The solar is also an excellent way for those of us with AGM batteries to complete a large recharge of the batteries after driving to get most of it done.

Put in an engine generator or big alternator, and group 1.75 picks up even more by also having rapid recharge capability.:thumbup:

I fall into this group.
Our Annie has 400AH AGM and 560W of solar. We have a compressor fridge, and will mainly run the inverter when we're heating something in the microwave or watching a movie.
The fridge is the major single consumer. At ~4A and 50% duty cycle it is at ~50AH/day. Lighting, heater fan, micro and media combined are in the same ballpark, maybe a tad lower. All told, probably 100AH tops/day.
If we assume only 10% rated solar output, that covers the fridge indefinitely. For the rest, the batteries should keep us autonomous for about 4 days to 50% SOC.
But even up here in the Nothwet winter, our solar is putting out closer to 75AH/day (once the snow is off the panels).

Stan

 

[mojoman]

I found using the van's alternator which supplies 120amps through a battery to battery charger to the lithium bank, while running the dash ac and roof ac cools down a hot interior very quickly. My Promaster came with a 220amp alt. Once all of the van's interior contents are cooled down, it doesn't take much for the roof ac to keep it cool.
For the DIY, you can install a solar system for about 1/4 of the dealer cost. I now have 455 watts total, an MPPT controller and it all cost me under $900 for everything.

 

[avanti]

I think I would add a 1.5 group of solar users to Avanti's list. Those would be folks that aren't extreme power savers, may have a compressor frig, and use in the 50-100 amp hours of power a day. Usually, they would have a bit more than the common 200ah of battery bank, also, and probably 3-400 watts of solar.

A setup like that gives you enough solar to cover all usage in good sun and enough battery to cover bad sun. Worst case you get 4+ days off grid without moving, best case you can sit forever.

The solar is also an excellent way for those of us with AGM batteries to complete a large recharge of the batteries after driving to get most of it done.

Put in an engine generator or big alternator, and group 1.75 picks up even more by also having rapid recharge capability.:thumbup:

Ironically, I am in that category, too. It is just that given our travel style, we almost NEVER sit for a day without driving SOMEWHERE, and with a second alternator it takes so little drive time to make up a day's solar, our fridge does fine and I rarely think about it.

What I would REALLY like is to be able to reliably park for a week in the middle of a trip (say, taking the ferry for a stay at Isle Royale) and leave the fridge running. That is a tricky requirement for most setups.

 

[booster]

What I would REALLY like is to be able to reliably park for a week in the middle of a trip (say, taking the ferry for a stay at Isle Royale) and leave the fridge running. That is a tricky requirement for most setups.

I an actually a little surprised that you can't do that pretty easily. We have similar battery capacity at 440ah and a compressor frig (probably35-40ah a day average use in hot weather) so we figure we could do that without issue. 40ah for 7 days is 280 and an extra 10ah a day for parasitic would be 350ah or 80% capacity on the batteries, which is on the low end, but not a huge deal. And that is with no solar input. Even in really bad weather, we will see 5-10ah per day of solar from our 300 watts so an extra 35-70ah available for the week, but likely much more than that because continuously bad weather is pretty rare.

The biggest thing is probably being sure you are totally full on the batteries at the beginning, based on the amps to the batteries. If not you may give up 20% of your capacity just because you aren't totally charged.

 

[Davydd]

Those low-profile panels that ARV likes to use look great--if I wanted more solar, I would be tempted. Note, however, that you pay a significant efficiency hit by not having a space for air to flow beneath the panels.

Look at that photo again. Those roof ribs are about an inch high the panels are not tight to the roof and there is plenty of air circulating beneath the panels with no cowling stopping the flow. The heat or cooling or whichever way you want to look at it only has an 1/8" of plastic to disperse through.

Hiking them up higher and making them rigid only adds structure and weight in my opinion, and probably creates more drag as the owner of that Solar Womp ARV seems to believe.

After two years there is no cupping as had been reported by a lot of reviewers of flex panels. The very slight arch following the roof gives very positive water shedding.

 

[avanti]

I an actually a little surprised that you can't do that pretty easily. We have similar battery capacity at 440ah and a compressor frig (probably35-40ah a day average use in hot weather)

Well, 40aH/day is low for our big NovaKool. It is rated at 5.2 amps. So, assuming a 50% duty cycle that is more than 62Ah/day. Plus, (a) I actually read somewhat more than 5.2, probably due to a pair of fans I added to vent behind the unit; and (b) I don't think I can count on a 50% duty cycle if it is very hot (not sure about the latter). So, unless I get lucky with good sunlight it isn't going to work, and you just can't count on that.

 

[Davydd]

Well, 40aH/day is low for our big NovaKool. It is rated at 5.2 amps. So, assuming a 50% duty cycle that is more than 62Ah/day. Plus, (a) I actually read somewhat more than 5.2, probably due to a pair of fans I added to vent behind the unit; and (b) I don't think I can count on a 50% duty cycle if it is very hot (not sure about the latter). So, unless I get lucky with good sunlight it isn't going to work, and you just can't count on that.

I think you're right. Those two separate from the refrigerator fans add to the battery draw. We have them too. Little details people overlook. I know watching my Silverleaf screen is crude and rounding off on amps but reading the NovaKool and listening to how much it actually runs leaves me to believe, like solar, the manufacturers like to quote the most optimum of conditions like on a pedestal wide open in a climate controlled lab and everyone tends to want to believe it. Like gas mileage people will swear they can get 30 mpg because they monitored it coming down Pike's Peak one time.

BTW, I don't think I could spend a week on Isle Royal. After I see a moose I would be ready to go. Wolves you are not going to see now. They are breaking policy and thinking about restocking the depleted wolf population.

We easily sat 5 days mostly unused at my sister's house in Indianapolis in May with the refrigerator running. We stayed in her house but were in and out of the B for some reason or another daily. We were parked facing west to east so we got the maximum solar benefit. The test ended because our time was up and we left.

 

[booster]

I certainly can't argue that the manufacturers don't fudge the specs on the compressor refrigerators. I set ours up on the bench first to see if it met spec, and it did come very close, but not in the van. I spent a lot of time and effort to get it just as good in the van as on the bench. We don't need any extra fans to do that. The van builders don't do that work, and the customers pay for it in lowered performance. We use between 17 and about 44 amp hours a day to run the frig with temps up to 98*F with the frig side in the sun. These are measured usages so real, I think. Using a 50ah per day top for life calcs is really safe for us.

It is like so much else in mass produced B's. They don't have the time or inspiration to make the stuff as good as it can be, but it looks good in the sales literature. Not really all that different from solar claims or Roadtrek's recharge and running AC claims.