Winter use upgrades

[DeltaDave]

Hi every one. This is my first question on this forum. I own a PW Exel TS 2001. Very low miles 40k everything works perfect. We want to use it during the winter in Northern Cal, Nevada etc. Cold weather camping. Should I do extra insulation on the plumbing and tanks? Should I add tank heaters? We were up in Carson City for a few days got down in the 20's at night we kept the furnace on and had no problems. But I am still worried and need some knowledge on how to properly gear up for this kind of use.

Thanks All
Dave

 

[avanti]

You should seriously consider adding a hydronic heating system with an always-hot glycol loop, heated by something like an Espar D5. ARV developed a system by which tanks and exposed pipes are heated by wrapping them in insulation along with a glycol hose. I copied this approach in our GWV Legend and it works great. Trying to keep all exposed plumbing and tanks warm electrically is a big challenge. With the Espar, you have plenty of BTUs to work with.

 

[Belzar]

Any solution requires reliable 24/7 energy which is not practical for how many of us use our class B's. For winter, we have plenty of extra insulation, carry fresh water inside, use sink liner and lidded bucket for washing/grey water, flush toilet with antifreeze (or use wag bags) and use tea kettle for "hot running water". We camp down to -10F and except for showering don't feel like we are losing much utility due to being winterized.

 

[avanti]

Any solution requires reliable 24/7 energy which is not practical for how many of us use our class B's.

Why is a diesel-fired heater not practical for you? Diesel consumption of an Espar D5 is .16 gal/hour, which is less than four gallons/day, and that assumes it runs constantly, which it typically doesn't.

Electric usage is less than 4 amps.

 

[gregmchugh]

You should seriously consider adding a hydronic heating system with an always-hot glycol loop, heated by something like an Espar D5. ARV developed a system by which tanks and exposed pipes are heated by wrapping them in insulation along with a glycol hose. I copied this approach in our GWV Legend and it works great. Trying to keep all exposed plumbing and tanks warm electrically is a big challenge. With the Espar, you have plenty of BTUs to work with.

Would probably make sense for him to use the gasoline Espar hydronic heater rather than having to have a separate diesel fuel tank?

 

[rowiebowie]

Hi every one. This is my first question on this forum. I own a PW Exel TS 2001. Very low miles 40k everything works perfect. We want to use it during the winter in Northern Cal, Nevada etc. Cold weather camping. Should I do extra insulation on the plumbing and tanks? Should I add tank heaters? We were up in Carson City for a few days got down in the 20's at night we kept the furnace on and had no problems. But I am still worried and need some knowledge on how to properly gear up for this kind of use.

Thanks All
Dave

Welcome to the forum Dave!

 

[avanti]

Would probably make sense for him to use the gasoline Espar hydronic heater rather than having to have a separate diesel fuel tank?

Yeah. Probably. Parameters are roughly equivalent, I think.

 

[gregmchugh]

Yeah. Probably. Parameters are roughly equivalent, I think.

147,000 BTU/gal for diesel, 125,000 BTU/gal for gasoline,

 

[GeorgeRad]

I had a 4 season Bigfoot Camper and a Bigfoot trailer, both fiberglass chassis. Camper's tanks and plumbing was inside the fiberglass shell. On the trailer all plumbing and tanks below the floor were enclosed in between trailer floor and a thin foam / fiberglass sheet. Ducting from the LPG furnace routed hot air into this enclosure keeping plumbing and tanks above freezing.

If you can build a hot air enclosure around plumbing / tanks using hot air which you already have would likely be easier to build winterizing system instead building a hydronic heating system from scratch. This hot air enclosure doesn’t have to be perfectly sealed, just good enough to keep inside temperature above freezing.

Building reliable hydronic system from scratch is not easy, any air pockets have to have deairing provisions, finding a place for expansion / filling tank with minimum volume of 6l. could be difficult, I mounted mine under the hood.

 

[avanti]

Building reliable hydronic system from scratch is not easy, any air pockets have to have deairing provisions, finding a place for expansion / filling tank with minimum volume of 6l. could be difficult, I mounted mine under the hood.

I was responding to the question of whether it was practical, not whether it was easy.

That said, a hydronic system isn't rocket science. I agree that the expansion tank is the biggest challenge. Are air pockets really an issue? My Rixen's system doesn't seem to address this in any way, nor does my 4-season add-on loop. It all seems to self-purge without issue.

I did also create insulated compartments underneath the vehicle to retain heat, but I think it was mostly kind of belt-and-suspenders, except around the tanks. Trying to do this as the exclusive solution would trade the hydronic complexities for air ducting ones, depending on what you were starting with.

 

[GeorgeRad]

I was responding to the question of whether it was practical, not whether it was easy.

That said, a hydronic system isn't rocket science. I agree that the expansion tank is the biggest challenge. Are air pockets really an issue? My Rixen's system doesn't seem to address this in any way, nor does my 4-season add-on loop. It all seems to self-purge without issue.

I did also create insulated compartments underneath the vehicle to retain heat, but I think it was mostly kind of belt-and-suspenders, except around the tanks. Trying to do this as the exclusive solution would trade the hydronic complexities for air ducting ones, depending on what you were starting with.

Indeed, none of camper conversion stuff is rocket science, but without direct experience it could be frustrating at times, just like installation of my Espar D5. Right upfront I made a “little” mistake which gave me installation headaches; I purchased an Espar model with integrated pump following recommendation from Espar folks. This mistake led to necessity for deairing device, without it I was unable to reliably start my D5. Since, a few folks on the Sprinter Forum installed it as well so there must some need for it. If coolant pump can be run independently from the furnace this deairing would likely be not necessary in most cases, but my Espar D5 internal wiring would have to be modified to run independently, another headache. https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/21773/page-49#post-586098

 

[Davydd]

Hi every one. This is my first question on this forum. I own a PW Exel TS 2001. Very low miles 40k everything works perfect. We want to use it during the winter in Northern Cal, Nevada etc. Cold weather camping. Should I do extra insulation on the plumbing and tanks? Should I add tank heaters? We were up in Carson City for a few days got down in the 20's at night we kept the furnace on and had no problems. But I am still worried and need some knowledge on how to properly gear up for this kind of use.

Thanks All
Dave

Getting back to your question. The more insulation you have for the windows the better. Quilted insulated window curtains with magnets to attach tightly around the frame are easy to make yourself if you have any sewing skills or know someone who has. That would get the most bang for your buck and the most perceived comfort. Sleeping bags rated down to 20 deg. and you could sleep without the heat on or greatly minimize your heating requirements to maybe keep at 40 deg. If it gets above freezing during the day I would not worry about your black and grey tanks. You could dump some pink RV anti-freeze in them if you think you might have to dump in freezing weather. As for your water lines, my 2005 Pleasure-way had copper lines under the van. You could turn off your water pump and open your faucet valves. Another precaution is to open cabinets where water lines are so what heat you have gets to them. Most likely water will drain down to the low points or back to the water tank. Your water tank can withstand overnight freezing. Remember, though the tanks are outside, if you heat your van overnight there will be a radiation heating effect on all your tanks. We camped many a time in our Pleasure-way and subsequent vans down to 20 deg. overnight with no damaging effects. I would assume you are camping where it gets above freezing during the day and you are not prolonging your duration to more than a night or two. Of course you could go waterless if there are toilet facilities in the campground and carry a few gallons of water inside for washing, teeth brushing, coffee, drinking and food preparation. If you have camping access to shore power then it gets a lot easier. We go to the Winter Freezeout in Michigan's UP in January with some 30 RVers mostly Class Bs of all kinds and all years and everyone survives with electrical shore power down to one time a -15 deg. F. over a three nights alway below freezing night and day.

 

[Belzar]

Diesel heater certainly has plenty of BTU's to spare. I have one in my Roadtrek and its almost too powerful for just interior heating such a small space (rapid cycling). To protect tanks and plumbing you would have to run heater 24/7 when below freezing.

 

[avanti]

To protect tanks and plumbing you would have to run heater 24/7 when below freezing.

A hydronic glycol loop and corresponding expansion tank represents a significant heat reservoir. I run our glycol pump 24/7 (summer and winter). But it would require a very cold day to cause the Espar D5 to run continuously. Even then, this is completely practical.

 

[Belzar]

Avanti - Agree its quite doable and probably best solution out there if need full plumbing systems . But I travel throughout the winter - days and weeks well below freezing, sometimes below zero. Sometimes the van is unattended for days or even more. The requirement for continuous heat and access to reliable 24/7 electricity, or always insuring sufficient fuel in diesel tank, would be a big constraint/worry. But short of skirting and being plugged in, the hydronic option is best solution if need showers in winter.

 

[Davydd]

Kind of moot in my mind but is anyone really going to convert to a hydronic system in a 20 year old van?

Also, has anyone, commercially offered a gasoline Espar hydronic heating system off the chassis fuel or has anyone in the North America done it as a DIY?

 

[avanti]

Kind of moot in my mind but is anyone really going to convert to a hydronic system in a 20 year old van?

I don't see why not.

Also, has anyone, commercially offered a gasoline Espar hydronic heating system off the chassis fuel or has anyone in the North America done it as a DIY?

Yes, there are many of both. This has been covered before.

 

[Davydd]

I don't see why not.

Yes, there are many of both. This has been covered before.

I've seen it discussed. I don't recall an installation.

 

[avanti]

I've seen it discussed. I don't recall an installation.

LMGTFY:

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f46/hello-from-az-sprinter-10590-2.html#post110747

 

[DeltaDave]

Thanks all

Thanks all for the conversation. I kinda figure it is probably easiest to winterize the plumbing and go that route. Still use it just not the water system and tanks. Maybe hard on my old bladder at night. We just love this rig being it's a little older it's not that great on gas about 12 mpg but it sure has a lot of power and will be easy to work on. Thanks again until next time see ya.