Roadtrek 190P dual dump setup

[booster]

I figured I would continue with the dual dump setup we are putting together here on the Tweaks section to keep it separated from what Peteco going on in another discussion.

As mentioned, the goal is a true dual dump system with minimal work to switch between the systems and without removing plugs, adding fittings, etc for an emergency gravity dump. Also there have come up some questions as to how the macerator should be mounted, and if the Roadtrek original mount could be improved to help durability of the pumps.

I finally got back to working on it after being a bit under the weather (again) for a while. Today was the first of the real dry fits to see if it all is really going to fit, and if there is anything I don't like, or that could be made better. The earlier stuff was measure and guess rough cuts.

I put the pump/gravity dump conversion subassembly together on the bench and got things roughly lined up. The pump is reversed from the original location to get the inlet to the modified pipe so the motor faces the passenger side, rather than the driver side. The pipe to the macerator inlet is plastic welded into the big pipe as low as it can go (be kind, it is the first time I have ever welded plastic in my life). When I put it in, I changed the new valve to point the other way to protect it better.





This shows the pump, which will hang upside down like the Roadtrek pump, but has had the motor end cap clocked to put the weep hole and inlet on the bottom where they belong (I think). If it wasn't clocked the seal leak drain would point up, like it does stock, and not drain leakage. It can also fill with dirt and road splash.



Here are pix from a bunch of hard to take angles, so not great, but hope you get the idea of where everything will sit.









The hose will go out at the driver side like a normal Roadtrek gravity dump. There is no room to slope and come out through the skirt, so the hole, in a carrier tube will hinge down when needed to get under the skirt with some slope to drain. Rough fit of the carrier tube in the down position and not shortened yet. That fit will be the last done after all the rest is working right.





I may still move the pump a couple of inches closer to the passenger side so the adapter is a bit shorter, but I need to make sure I can still get the grey tank valve cable past the new valve. The macerator outlet needs a tighter elbow for better clearance, it will go to the same pvc I had in place stock over to the side pod.

No onto supports for the pump and piping, a hinge for hose support, heat shielding, guards to protect from road debris. At least it looks like there really is enough room to make it work, but we will see how it turns out.

 

[peteco]

Looks great.

Had you considered using a wye take-off for the macerator leg, assuming one exists? That 90-degree bend might make it harder for "stuff" to make the turn into the macerator leg.

Pete
2006 Roadtrek 210 Popular

 

[booster]

Looks great.

Had you considered using a wye take-off for the macerator leg, assuming one exists? That 90-degree bend might make it harder for "stuff" to make the turn into the macerator leg.

Pete
2006 Roadtrek 210 Popular

I did consider it, and even made a simple test prototype of it. You can see the test wye in the very first picture on the bench, in back of the subassembly. With the wye, everything just got too big for my liking. The pump moved way out away from the tank, and the extra valve with it, and it left less distance for the hinged tube for the gravity dump. It would have required more supports and covers, also. You need to use a 3" wye and then reduce, or you are not at the bottom of the main 3' tube. With the welded in tube, I could get right on the bottom with the smaller pipe. I do think it would be able to make work OK, though, if done, and if I hadn't bought the welder, I might be doing it right now.

If it was gravity feed, I wouldn't want to have the 90* turn in it like I have, but with the suction of the pump, I don't think there will be any issues. I think they say 5' of lift, which is substantial suction. It is good that by doing the 90*, I can get very close to the gravity dump added valve to clear that area, which may be good thing. That will be one of the things I want to see when I get it running, along with how much better it will clear the piping with the inlet on the bottom instead of the top.

 

[markopolo-ClassB]

Looks good. I'm impressed that you're already this far along.
For some reason I thought the add-on gravity dump would exit on the passenger side. Having it on the drivers side like stock pre-macerator Roadtreks had is great.

 

[booster]

After another trip to Menards for parts, I got to do the final fitup on the pump and valves assembly. I did decide to move the pump over as far to the passenger side as I could, which worked out very nicely as it put the pump right under the frame rail. I happened to to have a leftover chunk of 1" aluminum plate from my days of making EFI manifold conversions and throttle body spacers, and it was just the right size besides, no cutting. It wasn't very square but that didn't matter for this piece. It works as the height spacer and mount for pump, which will mount with studs instead of bolts now. The mount attaches to the frame with 5 #14 self tapping screw with loctite and lockwashers. They recess in the mount to reduce the needed length and to be out of the way better.



On the frame



The moving the pump to the passenger side also allowed me to move it toward the valves a bit, also. I originally was going to use a single rubber coupling to the pump, but once it was in place there was room to use two of them. This makes it much easier to get into place and properly aligned without binding. Here is the pump assembly that will attach to the welded in stub on the main drain tube.



I removed the entire valve fitting and valves and replaced it with the new one I had gotten. I had to move the valve flanges from the original so it would fit, as well as move the cable actuator pieces because I cheaped out and bought a non cable valve one. Not hard to do as it turns out. When I put is all back in, it gave me a better chance to align and check road clearance on everything. I doesn't look like anything is any lower than the lowest point was stock, so that is good.

Right now the entire pump and valve area (except for the valve to the gravity dump) is essentially done and permanently mounted. Still needs wiring, discharge hooked up, and heatshields and road guards, but that will all come at the very end.





All and all, it is going better than expected to this point, but we will see how it goes with the rest of it, and if it actually works in the end.

 

[booster]

A lot of the necessary parts showed up, so I tried to hook up the piping from the emergency dump valve to the outlet area. I had hoped to be able to use a hose tube leave the hose in it when stored, but there was no way to do that and not lose some road clearance or have a major low spot in the discharge piping. I went to plan B which was to use regular 3" pipe to the outlet area and a bayonet hose connection and cover at that point. Hose will need to store elsewhere. With this setup I was able to get some slope to the outlet.

The discharge is behind the valve control area of the drivers side skirt, with an access hole through the valve control panel. The hose when connected is on a 45* fitting and goes out under the skirt. The hole in the panel is for visibility to hook up and to reach through to do the connection after the hose is put under the skirt. Very easy to connect while high on the stands, hope it is as easy when it is on the ground. All 3 valve controls are just above the access hole.

From the passenger side under, with temp wiring-pump with discharge up



The dump connection from under drivers side,



Dump connection through the access hole



With dump hose on



Hose under skirt for dumping-controls without handles



Everything should be far enough along to do functional tests tomorrow. Valve cables are on and working, but grey one is too short (always was from factory) so it will need to be replaced.

If everything works OK, it will all come out and the heat shielding for the top put in. I think the stock stuff will fit pretty well. Then the stuff back in and the rest of the shielding and permanent hangers, guards, wiring, etc put in.

 

[stanw909]

That's the shizzle as the kids would say.

 

[booster]

That's the shizzle as the kids would say.

Glad you explained that one, as I would have thought shizzle would be more likely to come out of the hose :mrgreen:

Just got in from doing the first real test of the setup, and all worked well. Can easily switch back and forth between systems and both empty the piping well. The gravity gets maybe a quart more than the pump, but we don't let it pump air for long. The indexed motor end to get the pump orientation seems to be fine. The pumped looked to be making full power and it pumped very well, getting out more of the water in the piping than it used to. I have one tiny leak in the plastic weld I made to put the pump inlet into the main pipe, no surprise there, but easy to fix when I have the pipe out.

Time to pull it out and finish up the loose ends and put it in for real. It will be nice to not have to worry about pump failure.

 

[stanw909]

My oldest brother lived full time in his 40' Bounder with his wife before he passed away and told me the story of his macerator failing. He had the inline kind that had a bayonet fitting so he could change it himself and although he could close the blade valve it was still a quite messy. Having an alternative to the permanent mounted macerator seems like a no brainer. Thanks for sharing.

 

[booster]

I finally got a chance to get back at finishing off the last stuff on the dump system. Had to go to Discount Steel and get a sheet of .050" aluminum for the heat shields and splash shield, plus a few other things.

Here is a comparison of what Roadtrek does to the the pump to get the long distance jam fix rod in place. The Shurflo cover is sealed to keep water out of the motor.



Even with the remote rod in place there is plenty of room for water to get in. This faces the drivers side and is wide open, so if you wash the undercarriage like many do, you will shoot water right into the motor.



Here is a comparison of the inlet fittings on our new pump (180* port) and on the pump from Roadtrek (now indexed to be the same as the 180*). The hose barb has been removed on the new pump (simple hacksaw job) per the instructions from Shurflo. Roadtrek doesn't cut off theirs. If you don't remove the barb portion, you have added a lot of restriction to the inlet and provided a big place for "stuff" to accumulate.



I was able to reuse the Roadtrek upper heat shield by cutting a little off the front end of it. The back stayed the same to mount the new splash shield.



I had to add to the front of the heat shield in two pieces because of the exhaust pipe heights being different. The add on is screwed to the modified rear section.





The two added pieces needed at different heights required an angled step piece to close the area between them.



I will continue in a new post so I don't run out of pic allowance.

 

[booster]

Here is what the finished setup looks like with the new splash shield removed. All the wiring, hoses, and cables have been located and secured.



I also used the rear part of the Roadtrek splash shield and made and add on to cover the rest of the needed area. Here is the splash shield off the van.



The smaller part is the modified original splash shield





Totally together with the splash shield on





From the drivers side



All in all it was a bit of work, but not near as difficult as I thought it would be. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out things that weren't issues, because I expected it to be a lot worse of a job. I don't know why they don't supply a system like this as an option as it would not be very difficult or expensive to do on a new unit.

I have about $350 in the system and that includes 3 new valves and a new pump, so not really bad. If you had it on a hoist and had all the parts, it could be done in a day or two, tops. On the ground it takes at least double that.

I think we will find this well worth the effort, just for the piece of mind, even if the pump never fails. It will also make flushing tanks and the pump much easier, as we can put the water in through the slinky to fill the tanks or flush the pump.

 

[booster]

Just noticed the exhaust pipe showing in the last pic, couldn't see that when laying on the ground. May have to add another small heat shield to cover that area.

 

[markopolo-ClassB]

Looks all neat & properly done :thumbup: Hard to tell the depth difference of that one heat shield and the exhaust in the photo. Could be just fine as it is and you don't have to add to it.

That is a great mod.
1. no worries about a pump failure interrupting a trip
2. pump failure is less likely now that pump is optimally oriented
3. pump function is improved now that pump is optimally oriented
4. risk of water intrusion into pump much reduced
5. option to flush out the tanks including back flushing is added
6. extended showering time is an option if grey hose valve open and connected on campsite
7. barb removal means less chance of pump inlet blockage

 

[booster]

Marko got it right on the pic being a bit deceptive. The pipe is further away than it first looks, and the heat shield are under the area stuff if protected. There still is a gap that isn't covered, but nothing is very close so it may be best to let the heat out of that area by leaving it open. I will crawl under when it is running and see, but not as urgent as first thought.

Was going to clean up the extremely messy shop today, but got distracted

Got the slinky tube all in place and strapped in well. It holds a 10' slinky with a 45* bayonet on one end. Attached to hitch frame and a strap around the propane tank.



I was going to leave the access hole in valve handle area open, but once the handles were on I decided to make a cover for it. .093 fiberglass with a couple of little clips that slide under the left side of the panel through the hole, and a thumbscrew on the right side.

Labelled the valves at the same time.



Hopefully, I will get motivated tomorrow and clean up the mess!

 

[JPMcG]

Looks like you guys tied into the 4" pipe. In the Winnebago ERA 170 there is NO possibility of doing that with any degree of reasonability. I opted to just use a Tee into the 1-1/2 line. It will not drain the black water of "larger" solids but will drain liquid from both gray and black tanks. With water added to the black tank driving and sloshing with biodegrading tank treatment hopeful will break up any remaining large solids. I id design a adapter to allow a garden hose thread to screw into the 1-1/2 drain to back feeding clear lines.. Could be "old faithful" in the head if the toilet valve was opened

 

[booster]

Looks like you guys tied into the 4" pipe. In the Winnebago ERA 170 there is NO possibility of doing that with any degree of reasonability. I opted to just use a Tee into the 1-1/2 line. It will not drain the black water of "larger" solids but will drain liquid from both gray and black tanks. With water added to the black tank driving and sloshing with biodegrading tank treatment hopeful will break up any remaining large solids. I id design a adapter to allow a garden hose thread to screw into the 1-1/2 drain to back feeding clear lines.. Could be "old faithful" in the head if the toilet valve was opened

Yep, every system will likely be different with some harder and some easier.


We did not actually tap into the 4" pipe for the bypass, we tapped into it for the macerator, so a small line was fine to feed it.


In our Roadtrek the macerator had been places in the plumbing where the line to a slinky dump would have been, so right at the end of the 4" on the tee from the tanks and with a reducer. I removed the pump from that place and remounted it near the side of the 4" pipe fed through an added 2" pipe from the 4" one. There is an added gate valve where the pump used to be that feeds a big pipe to a slinky connection. Keeping the full size piping for the emergency dump was an important consideration so I could use off the shelf parts for most of it. While our setup does take care of the emergency dumping in a very easy and thorough way, it was a lot more work than the simpler pipe/cap drain into a bucket and add a fitting and hose type setup.

 

[avanti]

Valterra makes this very fine fitting exactly for this purpose:

The part number is Valterra T1037.

This is a 4-way fitting:
1) A standard bayonet connection for a gravity-dump slinky
2) A 2" fitting intended to feed the macerator
3) A fitting for a black-tank slider valve
4) A fitting for a gray-tank slider valve

Here's what my setup looks like:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5/dual-dump-setup-macerator-and-gravity-dump-3254.html#post27871

 

[JPMcG]

Man oh man you are a talented fellow. I thought my "Sanitary Tee" in the macerator 1 1/2 suction side line was a tricky project.
Kids play for a guy like you. But you have inspired me maybe I'll add a guillotine slide valve and run a pipe to the side of the van to make it easier if I ever have to use it.
You can patch your welds with epoxy or JB Weld.

 

[TX-Trek]

My thanks to Booster for his always detailed project info - this is on a to-do list if (when?) the macerator on our 210P may give up the ghost. The prior owner had replaced it so maybe we've gained some lifespan on it.

We're about to head out on a 4-6 week meandering road trip and this got me thinking about what to do if the unit failed along the way. I remembered Booster posting info on a prior setup he did, essentially a drain pipe out.

With that in mind, here's what I did, just trying to get something in place.

Looks like our 210 may have a similar, yet slightly different tank setup, but either way, it's really tight under there. I came off the 2" drain plug and used 1.5" pvc to route an outlet close to the edge of the body. I still had to block down the macerator/valve assembly about 1/4" to get the bend at the drain plug away from the gray water tank bottom. The tank piping had a slight amount of flex to allow this - I tried a 2" elbow at the drain plug outlet and there was just too much interference with the tank.

I wanted to be able to control the outlet and attach a hose without crawling underneath (having to raise the van) to make extension hose attachment. I also tried to minimize the pipe exposure under the van - the pipe is tucked up as far as I could get it and isn't the lowest thing underneath.

I installed a ball valve and cut one part of the handle so it wasn't hanging down waiting to snag something. Still very easy to turn - the idea is that I can attach the extension hose to the end of the outlet without a lot of "water" getting all over things. That other small horizontal pvc piping is a conduit to contain/protect wiring for rear camera, lights, etc.

The plug on the end of the outlet can be unscrewed and replaced with a barb fitting for the flat-stored outlet hose. Or I can leave the barb in place and keep it covered with a plastic cap.

This is the hose kit that gets stored on the van until needed. Not sure what the requirements are for a sewer hose extension, but I can easily replace it with a corrugated version if needed.

This is what is seen from the side of the van. Since the picture, the end cap has also been painted black. Not very noticeable and it's tucked right up under the gray water tank.

Of course, anything can break anywhere - this is an emergency setup just to try to get fluids drained out of the gray/black tanks. Could be susceptible to clogs, but for me it works as better than nothing lol.

 

[ceoshank88]

Looking good so far! Keep at it, and let us know how it all works out.