Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[booster]

100ah BattleBorn battery is about $980. You will replace your batteries every year and in only ten years you will have paid %20 more for your disposable batteries while the lithium’s will likely have only used a fraction of their useful life.

And you will have paid four times as much in gas to haul the heavier batteries around... while having half the capacity, less persistent voltage, and limited power delivery capability.
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Ok, ignoring the attitude issue. Nobody, unless they have the worst charging in the world replaces batteries every year. Even if they were taken to 80% down every day. At 10 years every day, the lithium would have 3650 cycles on them and be beyond rated also, depending on whose life claims you believe.

 

[booster]

As to the Lithionics temperature sheet, that has been misrepresented as well. They say storing down to -4 for a month is still warranted. That means they are guaranteeing that there won’t be damage in that condition.

To hear some of the claims here you would think if a battery hits -5 it goes nuclear and levels a couple city blocks.

This also means that it’s QUITE POSSIBLE you can store LFP batteries disconnected at -20 degrees for a month with no damage.

Certainly nobody has presented evidence to the contrary.

Hell maybe you can store LFP batteries at -30 degrees for a year with no damage.

All we know is that lithionics isn’t gonna warranty that scenario.

There’s a huge gap between that and claiming that damage will occur.


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ARV told a member here that the lithium packs shouldn't be stored at below -4*. Personally, that is good enough for me. You are doing the old internet argument procedure to claim that there is never enough undisputable proof to say the issue doesn't exist, or may not exist. Most lithium supplies are now saying the same -4* for storage, which is new within the last couple of years. I would say, let's see the proof of no damage, or even a recommendation that it is OK from a major supplier with the reputation of ARV or Lithionics.

Note they say store down to -4* and then for only a month. If -4* was totally safe they wouldn't have a time limit on them as they won't be going dead in that time, it would think.

So you would be OK going colder and basically throwing out the warranty?

 

[COlbie]

You have a Plateau XLMB right? Where did you decide to locate the battery? I think you’re building my dream rig.

Technomadness we do have a Pleasure-Way XLMB. We are putting a Lithionics 600 amp battery and a 3000 watt Xantrex under the couch. The battery is called a "flatpack" and measures only 8" tall.

We love the rig, and with the battery and hydronic's it will be an awesome rig.

 

[Davydd]

I agree that in your case electric pads are simple and are making perfect sense. For ARV on other hand a hydronic heating could null Lithium batteries low temperature issues especially having the Rixen system as standard in their builds.

I have the Espar D5 Rixen system for heating and hot water and it runs on diesel or electric. The electric Hot Comfort is no where near efficient as the thin film heating pads applied directly to the batteries in a sealed box. The diesel requires combustion and moving glycol around. Why do you think that is more efficient or reliable?

 

[cruising7388]

That’s the power of FUD. You’re letting neoluddites who have never used these batteries and who are misrepresenting them to dissuade you from doing what you really want— and why? Simply because they are jealous they can’t afford them and think nobody else should have them either?

Disclosure: I have a 2017 RT 210PC equipped with an 800ah Ecotrek. I really appreciate the awesome capacity this setup affords. But that said, after 15 months, one of the batteries has failed and been replaced under warranty.

I suppose there is a contingent that refuses to enbrace emerging technologies simply because they are resistant to change - any change. But I hardly think this characterizes the forum contributors that harbor some doubt regarding lithium based batteries.

What your posts don't acknowledge are the trade offs necessarily assumed in choosing lithium batteries rather than AGMs for power management.

There are some clear lithium benefits like the great power density for weight, a high permitted depth of discharge and their awesome charging acceptance rate that facilitates rapid recharging of depleted batteries.

But there is a flip side:

These batteries are more vulnerable to wide temperature disparities than their AGM counterpart (which fully charged can withstand -40F temperatures with aplomb) and consequently current production lithiums require a complex battery management system that can implement heating and cooling to keep them within an acceptable temperature range for discharging, recharging and free standing. The high temperature limits have been quantified but what the free standing low temperature limits are is still a vexed question. Lithionics specifies -4F as the acceptable limit. Tesla has no problem with temps as low as -22F and Volta indicates that their batteries can sustain -40F without damage. While subtle differences in their respective chemistries may account for some differential, it doesn't account for the wide disparities cited by the various suppliers.

Another consideration is what respective consequences are involved if and when battery failure occurs. With the lithium setup, there first has to be an investigation of whether the symptoms observed are from the condition of the battery itself, the failure of its BMS logic or the failure of hardware such as a relay controlling a battery charging port. By comparison, the diagnosis for a failed AGM battery is simplicity itself. It took us over 16 weeks involving two visits from a mobile tech and finally a repair facility to address the lithium battery issue. To replace the same battery as an AGM would have been done in 16 minutes and capable of being accomplished most anywhere.

 

[technomadness]

The lithium battery ages just like any other battery types.



:ermm: :blush:

You might as well be claiming they will explode like all those Samsung phones, because once again you are applying attributes of one chemistry and usage scenario to a completely different battery type and usage.



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[GeorgeRad]

I have the Espar D5 Rixen system for heating and hot water and it runs on diesel or electric. The electric Hot Comfort is no where near efficient as the thin film heating pads applied directly to the batteries in a sealed box. The diesel requires combustion and moving glycol around. Why do you think that is more efficient or reliable?

In your specific case electric pads are unbeatable and definitely more reliable, just a couple of heating resistors. So, in your case it would be senseless to add a coolant heating loop to your Rixen system.

But for situation where someone needs to park for longer times at frigid temperature the Rixen is electrically more efficient and it has abundant of fuel in the tank, so for these situations it would be a worthwhile option with not much added cost once Rixen is in place.

Electric pads will take about 120Ah@12V at 50% duty cycle per 24 hours and D5 12Ah@12V at 50%/24hrs, 10 times less.

ARV has a very good engineering know how on designing winterizing loops and I am certain they could make it very efficient. I have seen their Rixen/winterizing video.

 

[technomadness]

Technomadness we do have a Pleasure-Way XLMB. We are putting a Lithionics 600 amp battery and a 3000 watt Xantrex under the couch. The battery is called a "flatpack" and measures only 8" tall.



We love the rig, and with the battery and hydronic's it will be an awesome rig.

That’s really fantastic. So it’s going where the storage drawers are now? Another nice thing about the pleasure way— usually that spot would be in a slide with any other manufacturer.


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[cruising7388]

You might as well be claiming they will explode like all those Samsung phones, because once again you are applying attributes of one chemistry and usage scenario to a completely different battery type and usage.



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You are disagreeing with the statement that lithium batteries age like any other kind of battery? Further, please explain the logic or authority that warrants extrapolating from a statement regarding battery degradation and pasting it onto battery explosion issues?

 

[technomadness]

What your posts don't acknowledge are the trade offs necessarily assumed in choosing lithium batteries rather than AGMs for power management.



Lithionics specifies -4F as the acceptable limit. Tesla has no problem with temps as low as -22F and Volta indicates that their batteries can sustain -40F without damage. While subtle differences in their respective chemistries may account for some differential, it doesn't account for the wide disparities cited by the various suppliers.

Oh, I have never implied there aren’t tradeoffs. My objection has been to the misinformation and trying to clarify some fuzzy thinking that has resulted due to lack of general knowledge and the fact that these have a common element in lithium.

For example, the difference between LFP, Volta and Tesla batteries are not “subtle differences in chemistry”! All three of those are as different to each other as AGM is to lithium polymer! (And for the record nobody is using lithium polymer in RVs, so that’s a fourth lithium battery type referenced in this one post.)

There’s a wide range of new tech here, and the attributes of cellphone batteries (lithium polymer) and even AGM are often attributed to LFP and other types for which they don’t apply.... in the case of lithium polymer it’s because people think “lithium batteries” are all lithium ion (there’s a 5th type- what is often used in laptops)... and people have a lot of repeated advice about AGM that bleeds over because the assume all batteries share those characteristics.

It’s very easy to hear “lithium” and assume these five different battery types are the same and have the same characteristics, when in fact the differences are quite dramatic. Puncture a lipo pack and you get a runaway fire and terrible smoke... puncture an LFP cell (I’ve done it) and you get a bit of heat and a strong but sweet odor.

 

[Boxster1971]

... You can nitpick all you want but we have enjoyed and experienced it 3 YEARS and brewing a Keurig cup of coffee anytime we want while you debate.

Not trying to nitpick. I was just answering booster's "perhaps" on heaters for the Volta system.

This document says 2000 cycles from Volta

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Level-One_1.8.17_WEB.pdf

It also has temps a lot warmer than -40*F. Perhaps ARV is talking about in use with heaters, not storage.

Davydd - no need to defend yourself. You need to realize we are all envious of your ARV van and would like to have the same freedoms of an all electric van we could use like our homes. Thanks for always being willing to share your experiences with your ARV van. They are the best on the market - bar none.

- - Mike

 

[Boxster1971]

"Thanks for always being willing to share your experiences with your ARV van. They are the best on the market - bar none.

HOLD UP Mike. Have you verified that with Technomadness???

Bud

... madness for sure!

 

[Davydd]

Hi David,

[dated August 3. 2016]

Temperatures below -4°F (-20°C) will cause the electrolyte to freeze which will cause permanent damage to the batteries if it does not kill them entirely. If storage temperatures will go below -4°F then you will need to heat the batteries to above -4°F to prevent damage to the battery. There is no exception to this.

Regards,
Elite Power Solutions LLC

and then I got this the same day from a higher up...

Hi David,

The cells will be damaged if go to -20F and the damage may not be
recoverable.

Best Regards,
Elite Power Solutions, LLC

So there is confusion about -20C (-4F) and -20F. I don't care because I have taken all precautions and if -20F even in Minnesota it has not reached that temperature in three winters considering it is battery temperature and not ambient air temperature under discussion.

These are the batteries in my ARV. I went directly to the source to confirm. At the time, ARV, after I had the B a year and a half, just learned this information and no other RV manufacture or supplier was aware of it from what I could tell. Yes, it was alarming, but the fact was at no time were my batteries ever below freezing with the heating system provided by ARV including storing outside in the Minnesota winter for two winters at the time. I consider it a non-concern knowing the parameters and the solution in Minnesota and never a concern for most of the United States or the temperatures we are willing to travel in.

 

[booster]

So there is confusion about -20C (-4F) and -20F. I don't care because I have taken all precautions and if -20F even in Minnesota it has not reached that temperature in three winters considering it is battery temperature and not ambient air temperature under discussion./QUOTE]

I don't think there is a lot of confusion for most of us on that temp conversion stuff.

The question of confusion came up because it was stated that the ARV Volta batteries were good to -40*F per your post earlier, based on info from ARV.

"The Volta lithium batteries can withstand down to -40F. That's a big difference than mine and even in Minnesota there would be no worry to store them cold."

The Volta literature says cold storage down to -20*C which is -4*F.

If you happen to speak to ARV, you might want to ask them about that discrepancy, as it truly is pretty significant for some people, I think.

 

[Davydd]

So there is confusion about -20C (-4F) and -20F. I don't care because I have taken all precautions and if -20F even in Minnesota it has not reached that temperature in three winters considering it is battery temperature and not ambient air temperature under discussion./QUOTE]

I don't think there is a lot of confusion for most of us on that temp conversion stuff.

The question of confusion came up because it was stated that the ARV Volta batteries were good to -40*F per your post earlier, based on info from ARV.

"The Volta lithium batteries can withstand down to -40F. That's a big difference than mine and even in Minnesota there would be no worry to store them cold."

The Volta literature says cold storage down to -20*C which is -4*F.

If you happen to speak to ARV, you might want to ask them about that discrepancy, as it truly is pretty significant for some people, I think.

I wasn't talking about Volta batteries but the GBS batteries I have from Elite Power Solutions and their two different emails to me. Why don't you do your own research. I've told you in plain English it is not the issue you imagine it to be other than those "some people" who have no experience in lithium battery technology.

 

[booster]

So there is confusion about -20C (-4F) and -20F. I don't care because I have taken all precautions and if -20F even in Minnesota it has not reached that temperature in three winters considering it is battery temperature and not ambient air temperature under discussion.

These are the batteries in my ARV. I went directly to the source to confirm. At the time, ARV, after I had the B a year and a half, just learned this information and no other RV manufacture or supplier was aware of it from what I could tell. Yes, it was alarming, but the fact was at no time were my batteries ever below freezing with the heating system provided by ARV including storing outside in the Minnesota winter for two winters at the time. I consider it a non-concern knowing the parameters and the solution in Minnesota and never a concern for most of the United States or the temperatures we are willing to travel in.

Now I see what is going on. You were referring to the above post, and my question to you, hopefully to relay to ARV, was about the post from earlier that is copied a few posts up, that you talked about ARV, Volta, and the -40*F. In the above post you had included a message from Elite (that got wiped out in the quote process by the forum) that their batteries would be good to -20*F, and that is where the question came up as to if it was issue with F or C, as -20C is the same as -4F.

I would agree that in your case it doesn't matter, but it might to others.

It still would be interesting to hear from ARV about if the Volta is good to -40*F or -4*F as Volta states. If they are truly good to -40F, that changes a whole lot in the big picture.

 

[booster]

I think davydd must be referring to this document from Volta that I just found.

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Battery-Pack-Data-Sheet_1.23.18.pdf

This one has the same -20C for 3 month storage as the other one I linked, but has added a "minimum storage temperature" of -40*C (or F), without a time limit called out. It would be interesting if this is a similar spec to the way Tesla does their cold rules, where they say no more than an "X" number of hours at no colder than "Y" temperature. The Tesla one IIRC will get through a night of cold sitting if it isn't really cold.

At minimum, I would think it would get a battery through a night or two in a nice insulated box, hopefully more. It will be very interesting to see what comes out with all this in the future. It may also be that they are counting on having some heaters running, but that is pure speculation.

It is pretty interesting that the recommended storage time goes down with the temperature going down, by quite a lot. I don't ever recall seeing that in battery before, unless they have quite a bit of self discharge.

 

[GeorgeRad]

Congratulation on your new solar and AGM package. I am not familiar with Renogy solar charge controllers but my Morningstar MPPT45 required good venting, it seems as you don’t have much headroom above and below the unit.

Adding some vents/holes or even PC fan could eliminate a potential overheating issue. I used these 2 on my fridge (replaced factory fan) and in my electrical box.
https://www.amazon.com/Noiseblocker...8&qid=1518900105&sr=1-1&keywords=Noiseblocker
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JYXZP9U/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

or this one

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QFWLGPU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[angelmroman]

Thanks for your comment, GeorgeRa.

With the current low Winter Sun, I have witnessed a peak harvest of 22 DC Amps. The Renogy Controller was barely warm to the touch. I will monitor that as I travel through the Spring and Summer.

Thanks again for the input .

 

[booster]

Thanks for your comment, GeorgeRa.

With the current low Winter Sun, I have witnessed a peak harvest of 22 DC Amps. The Renogy Controller was barely warm to the touch. I will monitor that as I travel through the Spring and Summer.

Thanks again for the input .

That is a decent return for sure. Definitely enough to keep you full, unless you are using a lot more than you used to.

An interesting thing is that if you are in the south, there times when the sun is better in the winter than in the summer. In the north the sun is always to south and lower angle in the winter. In the south the sun will actually be to the North during some periods and you will get worse sun than when it is right overhead in non summer time periods. I accidentally found that out when I was working with a solar calculator a while ago.