A few thoughts and questions replacing AGM with lithium in my Coachmen Beyond

[GeorgeRad]

There is getting to be way to much self serving diversion and confusion going on here, I fear.


Bottom line is that we want to help the OP make the right decision for his system. He stores in an unheated space with one warm wall in Minnesota. He thinks he wants lithium but isn't positive on that I think, the storage area is said to never go below zero degrees F in the winter, he wonders if he needs heated batteries and didn't mention what type of heat desired if he did decide he needed it.


It appears that with the listed storage conditions his lithium batteries would be in cold weather, no charge, maybe no discharge mode and would need to be warmed up before leaving home if use of the batteries is wanted before getting to warm weather. They should not need heat when stored as above the -4*F said to be minimum storage temp. My conclusion is that heat would be needed if use wanted upon leaving or some time after that before getting to warm area.



What style and how controlled has many options from manual to automatic, heat from batteries themselves or shore power or alternator power or whatever other way that could be devised. IMO, this is the main thing that the OP needs to be able to figure out if he wants his heat system to match his use patterns and needs.


So I think that the OP and the rest of us need to do a reset here and find out his needs and wants before going any further with all this other stuff. Without knowing what the OP desires going to deeply into often complex discussions will just be confusing.


Keeping lithium warm enough is a big deal if you are from Minnesota and doing that heat may or may not be a disqualifier for different people. Depending on the needs and wants of the OP, it could be inexpensive and probably manually run or increasingly expensive and complex as automation and redundancy is built into it.

Thank you for this post!

 

[JonMN]

Hi guys . . . OP here. This has all been really helpful

Storage: We built a dual-purpose building years ago. One half is not heated. The other half was designed to stable horses, and has heat (and water). We have electricity, so I'm typically on shore power when parked. I have never seen this side of the barn lower than +14F.

I added one shot of the van interior too. We really liked the open design of the rear bath. The plumbing is under one cushion, while the electric is under the other. Not a bad idea to separate water and electric. But without a complete redo of the electric side, the batteries are not coming in. I can easily add external insulation to the coach battery if desired.

Usage: This I think is where everyone varies. We bought this mainly to have the ultimate comfort vehicle for long drives, and we are really happy with the choice. Long drives in our SUV, truck, or two-seater left us surprisingly stiff. While the van has stock seating, the upright position, firm seating, and great view have worked out great for our last 2300mile trip. (Old school custom sheepskins help too) Stop at a rest area, make lunch etc. On long drives one of us can take a nap (yes, I realize this is not the safest thing in the world)

Winter: Winter will have probably one drive in the cold. Leaving Minnesota for a month or two somewhere warmer (pretty much anywhere other than ND will be warmer). So we could experience one day of below zero F driving at worst. Unless we are stuck in a snow drift, the chances of winter camping are exactly 0.0%.

Camping: We are going to be trying this for the first time next month. We had one nice night in our pasture as a dry run. A 330AH AGM easily can cook a dinner or two in our toaster oven, make coffee, and run the heater fan and refrigerator for at least a day, perhaps more.

Generator: Usage is rather rare. I tied AGS to A/C use, to keep our puppy cool while we did a little sight seeing. We actually ran into one other situation where having a generator was useful: our VRBO rental had strict rules that we could not hook up to anything. Since we were not driving very much, when the house battery went down I just ran the generator for a couple hours to top it up. While not silent, it's really quiet as far as generators go.

Anyway, if we do make the change this thread has been really helpful. I picked out the DC-DC I would go with, and have a wiring plan. Battery selection comes down to these three. I was surprised how many of the 300AH lithiums had only 100A discharge rates. Here were a few that would work. I'm leaning towards the Ionic as it's heated.

Battleborn: 270AH; max continuous discharge 300A, peak 500A for 30 seconds. Pretty impressive, but not heated.

Enduro: 300AH; max continuous 250A, peak 400A for 5 sec. Supposedly has vibration protection and the best IP rating. Again, not heated.

Ionic from Lithiumhub. 300AH; max continuous 200A; peak 350A for 3 sec. Good IP rating. This one is heated. Also the only one with a bluetooth monitor. Just few reviews in the RV world, but lots of positive reports in the boating world.

So again, thanks for the useful input and discussion.

 

[avanti]

[Moderator's Note: I have moved several messages from this thread to a new one, found here:
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f23/storing-lithium-with-without-shore-power-13946.html
I am not sure I clearly see where the "off topic" line was in this case (else I would have not crossed it). If I got any messages wrong in either direction, please let me know and I will adjust.]

 

[booster]

Thanks Jon, just what we need and very useful.


On the trip to the warm in the winter do you make to above freezing on the first day? Hotel overnight?


My guess is that you might want to wait until you try actual camping in the van as that can/would radically change you power use patterns.


If you don't do the camping part, you might just be better off with the AGMs as 330ah is plenty for a day or two, especially if you driving as you spend those days. Just like lithium the capacity will be lower in the cold but still shouldn't be any issue for that time frame.



I will be very interested to hear how the camping goes for you. We actually prefer the van for up to a couple of months away but other people want more space and/or luxury and don't care for the camping aspect of it. You will find out which end of the spectrum you are on, but on thing is nearly guaranteed is that you will feel very clumsy and lost the first couple of times out on the road and getting setup in campgrounds. We all have been through that, and look back at it laugh at ourselves regularly about those early trips.

 

[JonMN]

^^PS: By "camping" we mean RV park. Might consider off-grid later; but baby-steps now. Heading up to Grand Marais, one of our favorite haunts.

And, by the way, I would not expect to be above freezing when we leave for the South. On our last trip both stops on the way dropped below freezing, and I still have a LOT of Marriott point to burn, we stayed at hotels. I set the propane heat to keep internal at 45. The AGM will run the refrigerator for days, and the Truma fan takes very little energy.

 

[booster]

^^PS: By "camping" we mean RV park. Might consider off-grid later; but baby-steps now. Heading up to Grand Marais, one of our favorite haunts.

And, by the way, I would not expect to be above freezing when we leave for the South. On our last trip both stops on the way dropped below freezing, and I still have a LOT of Marriott point to burn, we stayed at hotels. I set the propane heat to keep internal at 45. The AGM will run the refrigerator for days, and the Truma fan takes very little energy.

Thanks Jon, much like I had guessed so I would stay with AGM for now as I don't see any downside to it at this point. They are plenty big enough to take care of your needs on the road while going both ways.



Grand Marias is one of our favorite places, as it is with probably too many people these days as it gets very crowded most of the warm months. Very tough to get any camping spots on the North Shore now, unfortunately.

 

[Davydd]

JonMN,

If you don't intend to ever camp in the winter in Minnesota, have shore power and storing with what I see you could use a temporary heating pad under your batteries something like an electric plant germination pad for under $20. They are designed for keeping plant trays above ambient temperature and have varying temperature ranges you could determine you need. That would be simple and just plug into an extension cord and provide heat where exactly needed. The rest of your structure or outdoors could be any temperature.

Booster,

We get up to Grand Marais every year. You're right camping is dear. Use to be we never had to make reservations at the Municipal CG. Now we do. Used to be Trails End National Forest CG up the Gunflint Trail was first come first serve but mostly empty. Now they want reservations. State Parks? Forget it. But oddly, after Grand Marias we decided to go up to Ely last summer and take our chances and at Bearhead Lake SP several campsites were available. So it is mostly on the North Shore I think and maybe that will ease up again.

 

[JonMN]

Booster and Davydd, we are staying a few days at the Grand Marais Rec Area and then a couple days at Lamb's Resort down near Tofte. Should be fun! We had several enjoyable short stays at the Bluefin, so might stop at their restaurant for dinner.

 

[Davydd]

Booster and Davydd, we are staying a few days at the Grand Marais Rec Area and then a couple days at Lamb's Resort down near Tofte. Should be fun! We had several enjoyable short stays at the Bluefin, so might stop at their restaurant for dinner.

Before our RV days we stayed a few times at the Naniboujou Lodge north of Grand Marais in the winter. Their dining room was one of a kind.

https://www.naniboujou.com

 

[@Michael]

Thanks Jon, much like I had guessed so I would stay with AGM for now as I don't see any downside to it at this point. They are plenty big enough to take care of your needs on the road while going both ways.

I tend to agree. It might be best for you to keep the AGM.

 

[avanti]

I tend to agree. It might be best for you to keep the AGM.

This makes sense to me, too.

I thought long and hard before switching to lithium. It is definitely a less robust technology (witness all the nuance that has surfaced in this thread). AGM is pretty much install and forget for the most part.

If you need lithium (e.g., for overnight A/C) while boon docking then you have no practical choice. But if you don't, why take on unnecessary complexity?

 

[GeorgeRad]

My Fullriver DC AGMs 2x115Ah @ 12V are 10 years old so time for replacement is coming. Storing the van in the heated (>50F) garage in mild climate of NW low temperatures limits are not part of the next batteries decision but, convenience of replacement is.

Neither my Magnum Inverter/Charger nor the Morningstar MPPT charge controller have Lithium charging profiles. I could replace both at 24 hours installation headache or mickey mouse a solution which would never replace convenience of “invisibility” of AGMs for the last 10 years. So, my plan is to replace both batteries with 2 x 31 series AGMs likely Fullrivers.