Winnebago Rolls Out Paseo B-Van at ‘Open House’

[markopolo]

Saw this on RV Business: Winnebago Rolls Out Paseo B-Van at ‘Open House’

Winnebago Rolls Out Paseo B-Van at ‘Open House’ | RV Business

quick summary:

rear dinette / lounging area
cross-coach sleeping space for two
single bed alternative
below-floor storage
belted seating positions for four people in rear of van
flat floor in bath area permits composting toilet if desired
3.5 liter, Ecoboost V6 gas engine
6-speed automatic overdrive transmission
sizeable holding tanks
compressor-driven refrigerator
available 100-watt solar charging system
two standard group 31 AGM house batteries
2.8kW Onan generator
designed for extended season use with fresh water tank is mounted inside the heated area of the coach along with all of the supply lines.
passenger cab seat swivels creating access to a pull-up table that can be used as a lounge or work-space.
armless electric-powered patio awning includes a wind sensor exterior speakers can be paired to smart phone
available bike rack
available ladder
new roof rack design allows for easy reposition of crossbars – no tools required.
rear and side doors offer screen doors to let fresh air in while keeping annoyances out

There's also a topic here: http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f7...aseo-5785.html

[bobojay]

Should note that the pic is of a 2016 chassis. The 2017's will be a different color as the display model's color is discontinued by Ford.
Sort of a lighter charcoal color will be the only choice initially

[wincrasher]

The WGO is updated their website with all the info, including the correct color.

I like the layout and many of the features, including the strong engine.

Not keen on the short wheelbase (140") and the odd looking proportions.

[bobcat66]

The starting MSRP seems pretty high when compared to the Travato...$24K more for the Paseo. Prices are from the WGO website.

Paseo: $114,988
Travato: $90,910

[Viperml]

I would not pay that much. I could buy a Wonder from Leisure Travel Vans for less than what a Paseo costs. Leisure Travel Vans - Wonder

[wincrasher]

Don't forget that WGO products usually trade for 25-27% off MSRP. LTV usually for 10-15, unless it's a hot model, then it's 0.

And if the build quality and materials are like what I saw at Hershey on it and their other products, then I'd take a pass.

[Viperml]

I would definitely take a Leisure Travel Van over a Winnebago in this situation any day. Wonder has a starting base amount lower than Winnebago. Factor in other things such as Leisure Travel Vans better quality and better resale value it makes it an easy decision for me.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Don't forget that WGO products usually trade for 25-27% off MSRP. LTV usually for 10-15, unless it's a hot model, then it's 0.

And if the build quality and materials are like what I saw at Hershey on it and their other products, then I'd take a pass.

Re build quality and materials, does this describe WGO or LTV, or both?

[wincrasher]

Go look at the LTV's today.

The cabinetry is all vinyl coated particle board. Lots of sharp edges. Most of the cabinet doors were those push to open type clasps that will last a week or so. They had to put stickers on the doors so you'd know where to push.

They are not the quality build they used to be. Probably have changed things so they can pump out more RVs.

I think they are living on past glory and their customers largely haven't caught on yet.

WGO has made alot of improvements on the interior of the new Era. They continue to move them up-market. The Paseo has wood cabinetry. Travato is using laminated doors, and vinyl coated plywood cabinets, but then again they are the low price leader.

If you want to see something that is appallingly cheaply built, take a look at the new Roadtrek Simplicity. I was really shocked when I went thru it.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Go look at the LTV's today.

The cabinetry is all vinyl coated particle board. Lots of sharp edges. Most of the cabinet doors were those push to open type clasps that will last a week or so. They had to put stickers on the doors so you'd know where to push.

They are not the quality build they used to be. Probably have changed things so they can pump out more RVs.

I think they are living on past glory and their customers largely haven't caught on yet.

WGO has made alot of improvements on the interior of the new Era. They continue to move them up-market. The Paseo has wood cabinetry. Travato is using laminated doors, and vinyl coated plywood cabinets, but then again they are the low price leader.

If you want to see something that is appallingly cheaply built, take a look at the new Roadtrek Simplicity. I was really shocked when I went thru it.

About two years ago I was considering getting a used 2013 LTV Serenity but it was already sold. But I stayed in touch with the owner. He sold the Serenity and bought the more recently released Unity coach and even then he concluded that the build quality on the Unity was not up to the Serenity build. It will be interesting to see if the LTV Transit Wonder continues down that quality spiral.

Judging by the internet surfing I've done, I don't think their production has markedly increased. They did shut down their Class B and their Chevy production to concentrate on the Sprinter B+ and now the Transit coaches but I don't think their total production has increased much and some deliveries require waiting close to a year. Ironically, when you think about it, if there is someone out there waiting to buy everything they build and wait for it at that, maintaining quality, price and value is of little if any concern to the builder if product degradation doesn't impact demand. Kind of reminds me of a wake up call I got over half a century ago when I was working in the purchasing department of an electronics company and suggested to the owner that the department was not well set up. He looked at me for a few moments and replied: "Son, I made over two million dollars last year and now you're telling me I did it the wrong way..." When I countered that the suggested changes would make more money, he said: "Son, you need more money.... I don't"

That said, I still think that within a few years, outside of specialty builders like ARV et al, WGO will not just compete in the Class B industry - they are going to dominate it, particularly if they if they get rid of the Onans and propane and beef up the solar. Even as it's currently built, the Travato (particularly the yellow one) constitutes the canary in the coal mine... and it's chirping.

[gregmchugh]

Also possible that the world's largest manufacturer of Recreation Vehicles, who specializes in smaller motorhomes, introduces some more European style Class B models that provide some new competition in the market that keeps Winnebago from dominating the market. What percentage of sales constitutes domination?

[bobojay]

Just for clarification, the biggest reason Leisure has stopped building the Libero is because they can't get enough chassis from GM.
The 35 & 4500 cutaways have been severely restricted numbers wise by the success of the Colorado & Canyon built at the same plant.
To rectify this somewhat, GM has contracted with Navistar to do the final assembly on these chassis starting in 2017 sometime.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Also possible that the world's largest manufacturer of Recreation Vehicles, who specializes in smaller motorhomes, introduces some more European style Class B models that provide some new competition in the market that keeps Winnebago from dominating the market. What percentage of sales constitutes domination?

Correctamundo. Hey, I am just shooting from the hip based on what seems to be happening now. Of course you're right, future developments could significantly change the name of the game. But either way, I don't think it augers well for RT in its current form or PW. For lack of any objective metric I'll say that if you have more than a 50% market share, you're dominating the market. When you're talking about the largest OEM in this market, is this Hymer? And do you think they will keep RT operating with its current business plan and products or will they gradually transform the company, much like Fiat has done with Chrysler?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by bobojay

Just for clarification, the biggest reason Leisure has stopped building the Libero is because they can't get enough chassis from GM.
The 35 & 4500 cutaways have been severely restricted numbers wise by the success of the Colorado & Canyon built at the same plant.
To rectify this somewhat, GM has contracted with Navistar to do the final assembly on these chassis starting in 2017 sometime.

I've heard that GM has had trouble keeping up with demand for these platforms. Has LTV actually cited this shortage as the reason for dropping Libero production? My guess was that despite avoiding the $15,000 Mercedes premium, the Chevy Libero production was so outstripped by the Sprinter Serenity version that it wasn't cost effective to maintain a Libero production line. And it begs this question: if LTV dropped the Libero because of GM chassis scarcity, how is it that Roadtrek doesn't apparently have the same supply problem building their 190/210 Chevy Populars?

What I heard about 2017 is that the chassis will be built by Nissan. Is that the same entity as Navistar? And do you know if they will be building the identical platform that GM is building today?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Correctamundo. Hey, I am just shooting from the hip based on what seems to be happening now. Of course you're right, future developments could significantly change the name of the game. But either way, I don't think it augers well for RT in its current form or PW. For lack of any objective metric I'll say that if you have more than a 50% market share, you're dominating the market. When you're talking about the largest OEM in this market, is this Hymer? And do you think they will keep RT operating with its current business plan and products or will they gradually transform the company, much like Fiat has done with Chrysler?

Agree that 50% market share with no one else above say 25% would be dominating the market.

Yes, Erwin Hymer Group is the largest manufacturer of recreational vehicles in the world, something like 1.5 billion euros in revenue vs less than a million dollars for Winnebago.

I have no idea what will happen with Erwin Hymer Group North America except what they have announced, current plant is for motorized Roadtrek and Hymer vehicles and a new plant for towables. I would expect a lot of success with the towables based on the initial models displayed at Hershey. I expect the market will decide what the mix of Roadtrek and Hymer vans will be built in the current plant. I expect that Hymer will bring manufacturing expertise that will increase the number of vans per year in the plant. The market and their decisions on pricing will drive the mix of Roadtrek vs Hymer van products. No reason, it seems to me, to kill Roadtrek products while they are selling well, they are #2 in the market. Let the market decide the long term mix...

It will be interesting to see how it plays out...

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I've heard that GM has had trouble keeping up with demand for these platforms. Has LTV actually cited this shortage as the reason for dropping Libero production? My guess was that despite avoiding the $15,000 Mercedes premium, the Chevy Libero production was so outstripped by the Sprinter Serenity version that it wasn't cost effective to maintain a Libero production line. And it begs this question: if LTV dropped the Libero because of GM chassis scarcity, how is it that Roadtrek doesn't apparently have the same supply problem building their 190/210 Chevy Populars?

What I heard about 2017 is that the chassis will be built by Nissan. Is that the same entity as Navistar? And do you know if they will be building the identical platform that GM is building today?

Navistar is the old International Harvester company. Makers of heavy duty diesel over the road trucks and local delivery trucks. Also a big manufacturer of diesel engines. They used to make the Powerstroke diesels for Ford.
My guess is GM will stamp the sheet metal and/or build the cab of the cutaways, then ship the part(s) to a Navistar location for final assembly with the current LS 6.0 litre engine, (by the way, considered one of the best V8 gas engines in the world), and Hydramatic 6 spd transmission.
This is supposed to give the GM Wentzville plant an extra 45k slots for vans, Colorados and Canyons per year.

Some friends of ours just bought a new Libero and were told by Dean up at the plant that they can build 3 Unity/Serenity units in the same man hours as 1 Libero. The reason is the Libero was assembled like a class B. Everything goes through the side door in pieces and assembled inside because of the coach box design. The Sprinter based units are built like a normal class C coach. Everything assembled on the plant floor, installed on the coach floor platform, then the sides and top of the coach "body" are installed together. The coach body design of the Libero is a much stronger unit by design. Heavier duty so to speak partly because of the heavier duty chassis under it.
I will say, that after they drove both the Libero and Unity/Serenity models up at the plant last fall, they were amazed how much better the Chevy chassis handles than the Sprinter models do. They say their new Libero is rock solid on the road in the wind. No sway, rides wonderful, and no rocking at all when entering and leaving the coach and walking around inside. The 18" wider rear track is a big factor in that as well as the heavier duty chassis

[markopolo]

What's the source of/for Hymer being the largest RV maker in the world? Should that be largest in Europe or maybe one of the largest in Europe?

Thor's 2015 revenue was reported to be $4 Billion. That's before they acquired Jayco.

Winnebago's 2015 revenue was reported to be just under $1 Billion.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by markopolo

What's the source of/for Hymer being the largest RV maker in the world? Should that be largest in Europe or maybe one of the largest in Europe?

Thor's 2015 revenue was reported to be $4 Billion. That's before they acquired Jayco.

Winnebago's 2015 revenue was reported to be just under $1 Billion.

I stand corrected, Erwin Hymer Group is the largest outside the US, Thor is the largest in the world...

[markopolo]

This report - Google Translate - from a few years ago put Trigano in the top two.

Trigano states their workforce as 4,500.

ERWIN HYMER GROUP workforce is listed as 4,700.

It seems that Hobby leads in the production of caravans (trailers): https://www.hobby-caravan.de/en/company/a-strong-brand/ - their site claims that they've held the top position in caravan production since 2003.

Adria seems to produce a significant number of motorhomes under a single brand name: About Adria - Adria Mobil - International

It looks to be a very competitive market place over there.

[bobojay]

Back to the Paseo. First retail sale units will be available in late November. The FitRV couple are supposed to do a live, real time walk thru on Facebook the day before the Pomona RV show opens where the Paseo is being introduced to the public answering question as they go through.
Also, I started a Facebook group for the Paseo...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/196392857439348/