RoadTrek / Erwin Hymer Group Criminal Scandal Destroying Lives and Careers Worldwide

[TerrierTude]

As a noob, I want to say that this forum, in the very short time I've been on it, has it is has taught me more about my RV and how to move forward than I've learned at any one time.

All the posters have been incredibly helpful -- even those who were not so helpful to Logan. I'm putting the latter down to some people here being Cassandras. Apparently, you were speaking the truth and warning about Roadtrek for years and no one was really listening. Now that things are coming out in the open, lots of frustration is coming out, that might not be expressed in the most appropriate way. But it's understandable.

Again, thank you all for making this a fantastic resource for the new Class B owner.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

(3) Not policing but rather MULTI-modal personal rating schemes. The *users* need to police the contributors via their feedback, not the moderators - that's the other big limitation of forums, is the outmoded labor-intensive moderator paradigm.

Although I generally sympathize with your wish-list, there is one important factor which is often overlooked:
Owners of discussion sites are generally (and rightfully) afraid of legal responsibilities. Often, editorial decisions that might otherwise be decided on libertarian principles end up being conservatively decided out of fear of subpoena or other legal quagmires.

One would like to assume a "common carrier" defense, washing one's hands of responsibility for content, but those days are long gone. Rating systems can (in principle) allow users to filter out what they don't want. But they are little help when the legal nastygrams start to fly.

P.S. -- Let me use this occasion to remind everybody that I am NOT an owner of this site--just a humble, uncompensated volunteer who occasionally helps out with routine moderation. The hard questions get kicked upstairs.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by avanti

P.S. -- Let me use this occasion to remind everybody that I am NOT an owner of this site--just a humble, uncompensated volunteer who occasionally helps out with routine moderation. The hard questions get kicked upstairs.

All this time I thought you owned the joint.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Although I generally sympathize with your wish-list, there is one important factor which is often overlooked:
Owners of discussion sites are generally (and rightfully) afraid of legal responsibilities. Often, editorial decisions that might otherwise be decided on libertarian principles end up being decided out of fear of subpoena or other legal quagmires.

One would like to assume a "common carrier" defense, washing one's hands of responsibility for content, but those days are long gone. Rating systems can (in principle) allow users to filter out what they don't want. But they are little help when the legal nastygrams start to fly.

P.S. -- Let me use this occasion to remind everybody that I am NOT an owner of this site--just a humble, uncompensated volunteer who occasionally helps out with routine moderation. The hard questions get kicked upstairs.

Good point, and threatening legal actions was one of the ways Roadtrek/Hymer used to try and control the less than favorable information about them. We heard about it fairly often over the years. We were lucky here that, AFAIK, there was not any giving in to threats by the forum.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by booster

We were lucky here that, AFAIK, there was not any giving in to threats by the forum.

I second this. And another great feature of this forum is the very light interaction by moderators. I applaud their restraint. It makes for free expression and lively discussion.
.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

....
Adding an independent appraiser to the process would do a lot to set prices closer to reality and force the RV industry to improve quality and warranties.

I agree with this on some level, but it could backfire badly by providing a false sense of security. Executed poorly, it would be worse than nothing.

I paid a "well-rated independent inspector" to write a report on our (pre-owned) rig before we handed over the cash to the seller. The guy made a total mess of it, missing every single issue - I might has well have taken his hundreds of dollars in fees and flushed it all down the commode. There was at least $3,000 worth of immediate repairs that it needed just to function at the barest level, and he missed every one of them, hence Interblog + hubster becoming competent van DIYers lickety split (it was either that, or re-sell the thing).

In the 4 years that we've owned this van, not once have I ever come across someone with the skills set that would be required to perform an appraisal job competently across multiple brands and MYs. They might be able to approximate some kind of a figure based on the rolling heap of parts in front of them, but the issue of whether it all works together and how well...? Much tougher.

[Glamper]

Wincrasher - Seriously? Kick a guy when he is down, he bought what he could afford and should not have had to deal with these issues. We go to a lot of house concerts featuring touring musicians, most of the them travel in used RV's all over the country, and believe me these are not Airstreams. Not an easy business, have a bit of compassion.

[Glamper]

Some of these comments telling the guy he should have bought Pleasure Way instead of a RT are completely ridiculous, that's like telling someone they should have purchased Mercedes Benz instead of a Ford Fiesta because it's much better quality..give me a break. Seriously a Pleasure Way instead of Simplicity? The guy is a musician not a venture capitalist, many musicians travel around in RV's to earn a living, they do not have time or interest to spend hours tinkering with their RV. Believe it or not everyone on the planet is consumed with the world of RV's, he was taken by a slick sales person, happens all the time and sadly made worse by the RT-Hymer recent closure.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

All this time I thought you owned the joint.

He used to be on Air Forums where he was essentially driven off for speaking the truth.

There's the problem of manufacturers and dealers promoting their products in unrealistic ways, but compounding that is the issue of individual buyers who desperately need to reassure themselves that they made the smartest purchase decision possible.

It's a variant on the theme of willful blindness - they absolutely cannot stand to hear criticisms about the product that they themselves also bought. Their egos are so fragile that they might die, apparently, if someone else says something like, "I just bought this thing yesterday and my inverter has failed."

That was a BIG problem a few years ago on Air Forums. New posters similar to Logan were routinely attacked by the Very Selfish who didn't want their voices to be diluted and didn't want anybody's comments to sully their Pollyanna perception of the Interstate. These people were more effective at forum evisceration than paid shills ever could have hoped to be.

Two things happened to crack down on that trend:

(1) Major push-back by other contributors. Demands both public and private that these people stop driving stressed-out newbies off the forum.

(2) The number and diversity of newbie posters grew to such an extent that nobody could get away with pretending that they were not "real" individuals with "real" problems. The gig was up, in other words.

[booster]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

He used to be on Air Forums where he was essentially driven off for speaking the truth.

There's the problem of manufacturers and dealers promoting their products in unrealistic ways, but compounding that is the issue of individual buyers who desperately need to reassure themselves that they made the smartest purchase decision possible.

It's a variant on the theme of willful blindness - they absolutely cannot stand to hear criticisms about the product that they themselves also bought. Their egos are so fragile that they might die, apparently, if someone else says something like, "I just bought this thing yesterday and my inverter has failed."

That was a BIG problem a few years ago on Air Forums. New posters similar to Logan were routinely attacked by the Very Selfish who didn't want their voices to be diluted and didn't want anybody's comments to sully their Pollyanna perception of the Interstate. These people were more effective at forum evisceration than paid shills ever could have hoped to be.

Two things happened to crack down on that trend:

(1) Major push-back by other contributors. Demands both public and private that these people stop driving stressed-out newbies off the forum.

(2) The number and diversity of newbie posters grew to such an extent that nobody could get away with pretending that they were not "real" individuals with "real" problems. The gig was up, in other words.

It definitely sounds like the Air Forums turned out better than the Roadtrek version, which I haven't been able to see lately because I got booted, again, this time for not using real name, and I will never give Facebook any real personal information. Very likely someone who saw posts here turned me in this time. The vitriol on that site was truly extreme, IMO, and as mentioned by others, cultlike. Hammill and Roatrek/Hymer did a very good job of training and supporting their attack dogs, to be sure.


I feel bad for Adain, and we need to do a better job in the future, I think.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Glamper

Wincrasher - Seriously? Kick a guy when he is down, he bought what he could afford and should not have had to deal with these issues. We go to a lot of house concerts featuring touring musicians, most of the them travel in used RV's all over the country, and believe me these are not Airstreams. Not an easy business, have a bit of compassion.

Ron is not always the smoothest talking guy. However he is probably the smartest and most talented guy on this and many other boards.

He's owned class a ,c ,and multiple b's and has improved them all

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Ron is not always the smoothest talking guy. However he is probably the smartest and most talented guy on this and many other boards.

He's owned class a ,c ,and multiple b's and has improved them all

Hey Gerry, where have you been? Haven’t seen you posting very often...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

It definitely sounds like the Air Forums turned out better than the Roadtrek version, which I haven't been able to see lately because I got booted, again ...

Another plus on AirForum is participation by a customer service company hired by Airstream to monitor the forum and reach out to customers who have problems. Usually only to those who have newer units still on warranty, but at least they are listening. Airstream does not own the forum, and members like me pay a modest annual fee for unlimited ability to upload photos. AirForum has 126,764 members.

[TerrierTude]

I reached out to Logan on another forum and asked him to come back to this forum. Because I think the knowledgebase here could help get him up and running again. In fact,someone had the great idea of starting a forum "Virtual Rebuild of Logan's Rig" where he could tell us all the details and you guy could give him solutions. He's right now involved with going after the dealer who certified this used rig and he's having some success. But he's intrigued with the idea of coming back.

[dougbaty]

2/20/19
Many years ago I bought a new pop-top Sunrader RV (I think they made less than 20 of them) that was the size of a class B. It always needed attention for something or other. Fortunately we didn't LIVE in it, so failures were a nuisance rather than a debilitating event. We either paid for repairs or I did them myself. Since I purchased directly from the factory (Elkhart Indiana) I wasn't going to drive back there for a fix-it.

For the last two years I have been researching Hymer/Roadtrek RVs, much of it here at Class B forums. The more I study the more disillusioned I become. On the Aktiv and Roadtrek brands what you can easily see looks good. On the Carado and Sunlight brands, close-up they look poorly made. If you crawl underneath any of these or take a ladder for a view of the top, you will see serious shortcoming. [I gather the classic Roadtreks were well made.] Considering how those running Roadtrek weren't concerned about quality you can't see, I suppose it should not come as a complete surprise that managers would pad the books to pad their sales bonuses. Still I am shocked at the criminality.

In short, it is now industry practice (Hymer/Roadtrek especially) to sell dreams at the highest price they can get to those unfamiliar with RVs. Poor Logan was just another "mark" with money in his pocket. They promised him peace of mind and instead delivered nightmares. Sorry Logan. How many of us have a full workshop and know how to use it (outside of James of TheFitRV)? Get real fellow Posters! Few people have the skill set necessary to look under the hood (so to speak) and see what is wrong. Also, weren't any of you young once? As a young man I made lots of life mistakes. Sometimes people took advantage of me and my silly dreams. Now I am older, wiser, and much more capable. Looking back through the years I am embarrassed by my youthful ignorance. (I need to forgive myself more.) How many of us saved up enough to buy an RV when we were still young? Quite an achievement in itself.

So even though he was badly burned, I hope Logan will be able to forgive himself for being, well, young. Wisdom comes with age, but usually at a high price.
DougB, retired in Sacramento.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Hey Gerry, where have you been? Haven’t seen you posting very often...

We sold the roadtrek back in May. Wife and i both have multiple medical issues.
Thats life i guess.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

We sold the roadtrek back in May. Wife and i both have multiple medical issues.
Thats life i guess.

Bummer, good luck, hope things work out. My wife and I went through the same thing the first couple years of our retirement.

[ClassB4Me]

I think it would be helpful having a dedicated thread (if it does not already exist) for RV Service & Repair Centers one can search /rate. As Fit RV recently experienced, some are good but many many companies are less than stellar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns1WxP0-Zkk

This can give a person heartburn

[mrshowtime3]

Originally Posted by TerrierTude

You guys are really indulging in some really mean victim blaming. The reality is that, almost every major review site through the years was rating Roadtrek as one of the best Class Bs out there. Maybe in the deep recesses in of the forums of the cogniscenti, the true story of Roadtrek was out there. But for a regular person doing a typical Internet research, Roadtrek looked like the rig to buy. Some of it was residual reputation from back when Roadtrek practically invented the Class B and turned out bombproof rigs. Some of it was the rigged forums dominated by people like Mike Wendland, heavily censored and dominated by the kool-aid drinkers.

The bottom line is that $85,000 is not chump change. It's a price point where you expect the basic systems to work. The warranty also signaled a company that was willing to stand behind the product.

Alas, much was an illusion. But that is not the fault of the poor duped consumer.

Can you not muster an ounce of sympathy for Logan? I recommended this site to Logan as a place where helpful people with a lot of technical knowledge would have some suggestions going forward.

C'mon. You are better than this.

For $85k a person should be knowledgeable of what the are buying unless they are so rich it just doesnt matter. I have never run across someone knowledgeable in Class B RVs that ever had much good to say about Roadtrek. They are widely known as bottom of the barrel quality with systems that stink. Their bathrooms are consistently the worst in the industry.

Simply going to one RV show should be enough to at least show a person the difference between a Roadtrek and other RVs. Winnebagos arent the best RV ever built, but id say the Travatos are a better bet then anything Roadtrek is going to sell you. And probably cheaper.

[TerrierTude]

It was NOT my experience that people hated Roadtreks or that they were "widely known" as crap. When I was searching, I would literally stop people on Sonoma Plaza who had RVs. Most invited me to tour their rigs and answered my questions about what they liked and didn't like and what they wished they'd known. (Luckily I live in a tourist town.) Almost overwhelmingly Roadtrek people LOOOOOOVVVVED their rigs. Many were on their second or third. Granted looking back, a lot of these rigs were the older bomb-proof models. But the point being that a company can cruise on decades of good will and good products even when quality goes down. Which is what I think happened with Roadtrek.