Class B Market Share, Sales and Shipments

[Lucy]

I don't focus much on Class B stuff anymore, we will be selling our house and our Roadtrek and traveling full time in a new vehicle we are having built that is a little longer at 27 ft and a little taller at 12ft and a little wider at 8 ft and with a lot more clearance and big tires and 4WD and much more rugged. 132 gal of fresh water, cassette toilet, 26 gal grey tank, Webasto Dual Top heat and hot water, 200 gal of diesel, 6.7 diesel, 800 watts solar, Mastervolt electrical system with 720 AH lithium, Onan QD 6000, and a large rear storage compartment for all our stuff. A totally rediculous purchase but we are doing it anyway. Off to out of the way places in Alaska, Canada, and the west before we get too old to do it and until we get too old to do it...

Clearly not a Class B so I will not discuss it any more here and possibly receive the admonishments of those who attempt to keep this forum pure and unsullied with talk of other types of RVs... [/QUOTE]

For someone that doesn't focus on Class B "much" you sure spend a lot of time posting on Roadtrek Facebook Owners Group!! I would hate to see what you consider a lot of time..
Just an observation not a critique...

[GeorgeRa]

In 1977 we were debating about getting Volvo or VW Westfalia, both were at $7K, gladly we chose VW. 1985 we were replacing VW with the new one, Westfalia was $20K and Volvo was $20K. 2013 we decided to go back to a camper van, Volvo was $50K and Westfalia was missing in action, there was nothing even close to Westfalias on any van.

My daughter remembers well both of our VW vans, she mentioned to her friend that they would like to have one but her friend had no clue about Westfalia. So, this market of reasonably simple at reasonable costs van RVs for young families camping is just tiny.

Is it possible to wake up this, I hope dormant, market, perhaps but the prices would need to come down? It is OK for the Advanced RV to charge north of $300K with any possible option under the Sun, perhaps with the exception of a Grand Father Clock, but this is not for young families or even retired couple like us, campers. I remember a chat with the sales person for the Airstream Interstate, she wasn’t pushing camping attributes, she was suggesting for us to take it for a spin from Portland to Seattle to test the ride and feel how comfortable the white leather chairs were, she mist the point with us. We would be perfectly fine with the Westfalia California model not available in California nor all other states, just having a Porta Potti would make life more comfortable.
https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/range/camper-vans-t6

George.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Lucy

I don't focus much on Class B stuff anymore, we will be selling our house and our Roadtrek and traveling full time in a new vehicle we are having built that is a little longer at 27 ft and a little taller at 12ft and a little wider at 8 ft and with a lot more clearance and big tires and 4WD and much more rugged. 132 gal of fresh water, cassette toilet, 26 gal grey tank, Webasto Dual Top heat and hot water, 200 gal of diesel, 6.7 diesel, 800 watts solar, Mastervolt electrical system with 720 AH lithium, Onan QD 6000, and a large rear storage compartment for all our stuff. A totally rediculous purchase but we are doing it anyway. Off to out of the way places in Alaska, Canada, and the west before we get too old to do it and until we get too old to do it...

Clearly not a Class B so I will not discuss it any more here and possibly receive the admonishments of those who attempt to keep this forum pure and unsullied with talk of other types of RVs...

For someone that doesn't focus on Class B "much" you sure spend a lot of time posting on Roadtrek Facebook Owners Group!! I would hate to see what you consider a lot of time..
Just an observation not a critique...[/QUOTE]

I know what you are saying. Much less time posting there than I used to but I still read it regularly and contribute. Cutting back more every day as I focus on the new vehicle.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Wow, this is a formidable ride! What platform does this ride on?

Not able to give all the details at this point but it is on a cab forward medium duty truck from one of the major companies that has had a 4 wheel drive conversion. Has a 33,000 lb GVWR but fully loaded up ready go with all our stuff it probably will still have 7,000 to 8,000 lb of unused cargo carrying capacity. It is a very large truck compared to a Class B...

The problem with the vehicles we considered on a Ford F-550 like a used EarthRoamer or the new Tiger Siberian is that you are always running near the GVWR and they are really not going to be reliable in the long term at that weight even with suspension upgrades.

[techfan]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. One month doesn't make a turn-around.

But HYMER is making the changes, not Roadtrek. If they have success and improve their market share, that is great. But it won't be because Roadtrek came up with some secret sauce.

By having more product at lower price points, they can surely change their position. It ain't rocket science. It would be interesting to see the figures on how many they are selling with all the high-tech gizmos, and how many are going with few features. I suspect the Aktiv sales are brisk as there is a lot of interest in a simple, smaller van.

The Simplicity line, and this new Sunlight stuff for Camping World is a troubling trend. They are extremely cheaply made and could hurt their brands in the long run. I don't see a $60k van made out of MDF to be a good value.

But facts are facts. The market for $150k+ vans is a small one. If they are moving down market to capture more sales, it's probably a smart move.

I find this recent sale in Redmond, Oregon interesting. Despite all of the pictures and literature produced by Hymer, this Aktiv does not have the full body paint. On the Winnebago side, this makes a difference approaching $2K. Full body paint vs. not doesn't appear in the "options" that I have found from Hymer. One more way to bring the price down but I'm not sure the potential buyer is aware of this difference or given credit for the change. Hard to tell. It just doesn't scream "quality" to me especially if there isn't a choice.

[cruisefx]

I am a little shocked....

Airstream’s Interstate Top Selling ‘B’ Diesel in ’16 | RV Business

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. One month doesn't make a turn-around.

They are extremely cheaply made and could hurt their brands in the long run. I don't see a $60k van made out of MDF to be a good value.

Maybe we have missed out on what Hymer is really offering.

For many who want to renovate an attic or basement in a house, you contract out the rough-in plumbing, wall framing, and the owner does the rest to save money. The Promaster 'bones' are reliable.

1) With the Simplicity you can finance it easier because it is perceived as complete

2) You can remove the cheap elements and customize to your liking (better wheels, better insulation, desk, different bed, etc)

25K in customizations to your liking won't make it more expensive than a Travato but you have more flexibility

[booster]

I think we are being a bit hard on some of the new units, which I admittedly haven't seen in person, though.

We have spent the last number of years here lamenting the very rapid escalation of class b prices to nearly all over $100K for Sprinters, as the other lower cost brands were dropping out. "A race to the unaffordable" as I think someone described it. All those increases also dragged the used market up with them, so used also has gotten much more expensive. We looked at a 2005 Chevy 190 in 2008 for $32K and passed because of the value it was lacking for what we wanted. Now 9 years later, I see similar vans for the same amount as it was in 2008.

Along come the Promasters, and some new entries into the market, and all of a sudden the prices started going down pretty quickly on them, and competition between manufacturers heating up. I think that this is a really good thing for the new market, and will also help the used market.

We all need to realize that if there is a bunch of competition to get the lowest pricing and actually go after the entry level market, the builds are going to much more closely resemble the quality, features, and materials of an entry level trailer or class C, than they will resemble what we have all gotten used to in class b's for many years. (much better in B's than C's or trailers-at higher cost)

Time will weed out if there is a market for the low end stuff, or not, and will also take out the weaker players. Lower end materials and features will be be like other entry level RVs, which is what I would expect, and would be OK with if it made the difference of getting a new B or not.

I wish they would line up all the entry level stuff at a show sometime. Trailers, B's, C's, A's so we could go directly from one to the other and see if there is a perceived difference in value or quality between them, when potential customers walk through them. Normally, if we are around a B dealer at a show, by far the most comments you overhear is that they are way too expensive for what they are

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by cruisefx

I am a little shocked....

Airstream’s Interstate Top Selling ‘B’ Diesel in ’16 | RV Business

Me too. All info about the Airstream leadership position from multiple sources states "...Airstream announced...." This info is not in synch with this one - Hymer: An Emerging Factor in B-Van Market | RV Business Perhaps some tiny letters got misplaced, like – above $150K based price. Based on the data hungry marketing to download their “50 items best in class standards” brochure their marketing folks are rather annoyingly aggressive.

George.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Me too. All info about the Airstream leadership position from multiple sources states "...Airstream announced...." This info is not in synch with this one - Hymer: An Emerging Factor in B-Van Market | RV Business Perhaps some tiny letters got misplaced, like – above $150K based price. Based on the data hungry marketing to download their “50 items best in class standards” brochure their marketing folks are rather annoyingly aggressive.

George.

This is only Sprinter Class B sales, so you will not be counting Promaster sales by Roadtrek and Winnebago.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

This is only Sprinter Class B sales, so you will not be counting Promaster sales by Roadtrek and Winnebago.

A very good point, I missed that. So Promaster is penetrating the B market well.

George.

[Marley]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

This is only Sprinter Class B sales, so you will not be counting Promaster sales by Roadtrek and Winnebago.

That was my first thought - #1 Class B diesel on MB chassis - kind of limits who is in the running.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

A very good point, I missed that. So Promaster is penetrating the B market well.

George.

Ya think? All of Hymer/Roadtrek's gains have been on the Promaster lines. ALL of the Hymer production is on Promasters and probably will be going forward.

Parsing the numbers further would be an interesting exercise. So far only WGO has committed to Transit B's, but I haven't heard what share of production they will be. My guess is potentially 1/3 or more once they have a couple different floor plans to choose from. If that lifts their share only time will tell.

[mlts22]

They are asking 97k for this. I don't know if this is something to compete with the Travato, or a half-hearted attempt to have a "budget" model, with options that come standard on the Travato. MSRP to MSRP, a new Travato costs 90-92k, comes with a generator, tanks, and decent sleeping space.

I'm hoping Hymer can compete price-wise with Winnebago, because it would be nice to see some decent "B"s that are not in the 100k range, but I just have a feeling this appears to be a half-hearted attempt to feel out the market.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by mlts22

They are asking 97k for this. I don't know if this is something to compete with the Travato, or a half-hearted attempt to have a "budget" model, with options that come standard on the Travato. MSRP to MSRP, a new Travato costs 90-92k, comes with a generator, tanks, and decent sleeping space.

I'm hoping Hymer can compete price-wise with Winnebago, because it would be nice to see some decent "B"s that are not in the 100k range, but I just have a feeling this appears to be a half-hearted attempt to feel out the market.

Don't forget that the margins are different for these companies - WGO discounts 25-27% typically, and RT/Hymer is 10-15% typically. So that gap is widened a bit more than what you see in the MSRP's.

[markopolo]

February 2017 Class B Shipment stats have been published on RVIA's site: The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: RVIA Main Site Home

Shipments were up 63.5% compared to last February.

Feb 2017 Class B Shipments.JPG

Shipments are up 40% YTD !

This increased supply, assuming it continues, should benefit anyone hoping to purchase a pre-owned Class B in the years ahead.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by markopolo

February 2017 Class B Shipment stats have been published on RVIA's site: The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: RVIA Main Site Home

Shipments were up 63.5% compared to last February.

Attachment 4056

Shipments are up 40% YTD !

This increased supply, assuming it continues, should benefit anyone hoping to purchase a pre-owned Class B in the years ahead.

This is a very welcome news, largest growth in the RV market, it should also increase competition for new B-class vans.

George.

[wincrasher]

LOL. What it means is that everyone's van will be worth less money on resale. Growth in the market is a double-edged sword.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. What it means is that everyone's van will be worth less money on resale. Growth in the market is a double-edged sword.

It is always a matter of perspective, more and younger people will enjoy B-class camping, just like we did with young kids. Having a healthy competition is always better for any product to deliver a better value.

George.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. What it means is that everyone's van will be worth less money on resale. Growth in the market is a double-edged sword.

This is an April Fools joke, right?