Travato LiFePO4 Battery Install - Page 6

wincrasher · 08-09-2015, 12:37 PM

I have read that LiFePo4 batteries "settle". I didn't have time to wait and see.

ptourin · 08-11-2015, 08:34 PM

PD finally sent me the correct model - PD9160AL - and I installed it yesterday. Interesting to watch it via the Victron monitor. I started with the batteries about halfway down - I was seeing 13.1v and about 45A charging current (thought it'd be nearer to 60 but it wasn't) - this went on for about 2 hours, with the voltage creeping up to 13.75 and the current creeping down to 33A. I turned everything off (no AC, no load on the batteries except the shunt) and went to sleep.

This morning I charged for an hour - voltage started at 13.3, but at the end it went rapidly up to 14.55, and the current dropped to around 1.0A.

In the few minutes after shutdown (again no AC, no load except the shunt) the voltage stayed in the 14's and crept down a bit - over the next hour it went down to 13.85, so there does seem to be some sort of surface charge-like effect. This afternoon it's down to 13.3 - so I assume I don't have quite a full charge.

I'll do a clean install tonight, and once we get on the road Thursday I can start collecting more information.

I did some circuit breaker changes - I moved the fridge 120v feed to another breaker so I have a single 15A breaker only for the charger - so it's easy to shut it off.

I did pick up a 12vdc coil high-current DPDT relay - haven't done anything with it for lack of time, but it's clearly possible to wire it so the contacts switch the 120vac to the charger, and the coil runs off the alarm relay contacts in the Victron charger. We'll watch awhile and see how things behave, then consider this mod - it's easy enough.

There's also the question of alternator charging, and it seems like exactly the same question - is there ever too much alternator charging - might it do battery damage if you do lots of driving with the battery bank fully charged?

Finally - it's turning out to be pretty easy to install the PD9160AL in the Parallax 7155 power center - I pulled out the Parallax charger, and I'll pull the components out of the chassis and mount the PD charger in there - it's smaller and fits nicely. That way I keep the ability to slide it in and out, and the chassis has the cover mounts. All good.

BTW - thanks for the comments and encouragement - I've had more than a few moments of feeling like I'm flying in the dark!

booster · 08-11-2015, 09:11 PM

I do think you will have the same, no cutoff, issues with the alternator charging just like we do with the other battery types (which can also go to float, so more options for non lithium).

We chose to go with a manual cutoff in place of the separator, which an ammeter on the dash to determine when to shut it off. Bistable relay so no power drain.

Here is a link to how we did ours.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...rade-3586.html

Jostalli · 08-11-2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

I do think you will have the same, no cutoff, issues with the alternator charging just like we do with the other battery types (which can also go to float, so more options for non lithium).

We chose to go with a manual cutoff in place of the separator, which an ammeter on the dash to determine when to shut it off. Bistable relay so no power drain.

Here is a link to how we did ours.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...rade-3586.html

This is how I plan on setting up my LiFePO4 battery charging via alternator.

ptourin · 08-12-2015, 04:50 AM

The PD9160AL charger installation was fairly easy. It's smaller than the OEM Parallax charger. I removed the guts from the OEM charger and cut down the chassis, then mounted the PD charger in it.

ptourin · 08-12-2015, 04:24 PM

BTW - I didn't mean to hijack this thread, Wincrasher! Seems we're doing similar stuff so I didn't open a separate thread.

mlts22 · 08-17-2015, 10:27 PM

I know it has been over a month since this upgrade has been done, but I'm curious how well it has worked. Would you do this over again, on a future Travato 59G?

wincrasher · 08-17-2015, 11:43 PM

So far, so good. I'm OK with flying relatively blind and not knowing the exact state of my battery. Some on here tend to obsess. Remember, I'm not running an inverter - just need your usual loads for ventilator, lighting, pumps, entertainment systems, etc. The refer I'll run on gas. So I think with a single battery, I'm quite good for 2 to 3 days.

What has been a pleasant surprise was, listening to some on here, I expected this huge amperage to fill the batteries which would overload the wiring. These drop-ins may be spec'd to take 100 amps to charge, but they will not "demand" anywhere near that kind of current - my guess is they peak close to 50 amps.

If I were to get a new van, I'd most likely replace the stock batteries with these. I'd not hesitate to replace 2 in a new Travato or Era. I might go with a higher amp rated converter, depending on the wiring sizes included with the van.

ptourin · 08-18-2015, 01:44 PM

I'm with you! So far, so good! I'm not pressing the batteries very hard on this trip, haven't seen them go below 75% SOC yet. I'm leaving the charger off almost all of the time so I can watch the batteries. The alternator 14.1-14.2 charges them to at or near 100% when we drive.

Wincrasher, didn't you get a PD9145AL charger? If so, that's what's limiting your charging rate - the batteries would be happy enough to charge faster if you'd bought the bigger charger. I got all excited and thought of doing this, then realized that I'd start blowing my 30A main breaker when I ran A/C with the charger on, etc. - ended up with the 60A charger for a 2-battery bank.

BTW - I posted earlier that Victor at SmartBattery told me that the batteries had only over- and under-voltage protection, no BMS. But in one of the PDF's on their site, I just found this: "Balancing: During charging the PCB board will provide up to 2A current through the lengthway circuitboard which is lower voltage than the other lengthway boards. Tests show that the cells are so precisely matches, batched together with high conformity and passive assembly design that the balancing function will remain inactive for most of the battery life." So it sounds like they top balance by bringing up the lowest bank.

I still would love to understand the issue of possible damage to the batteries from constant low-current charging at 14.6v once the battery is at/near 100% SOC. I'll probably call SmartBattery again and see if I can find out anything about why they DON'T discuss this when other battery suppliers do. I still can do it - build my own system using the Victron monitor's internal relay - but I don't want to if I don't have to!

wincrasher · 08-18-2015, 03:15 PM

Yes, that is the charger I selected. I wanted to keep the wattage the same as my original converter. I was also concerned that the cabling from the converter was 6 AWG.

I wasn't worried about charging with the converter being a problem. I knew it wouldn't output the max 45 amps, but would peak at something a bit lower - Progressive Dynamics told me to expect 35 amps. It's probably pretty close considering the charge times.

No, I was more worried about blowing the circuit breaker/relay from the alternator charging. I do have 1 AWG wiring, so I thought I would be OK at 100 amps that the battery could theoretically draw. But the electrical schematic shows the relay is 50 amps. So I expected that to pop right away on my deep depletion test I ran a few weeks ago.

It just didn't happen. For some reason, it's nowhere near that kind of current on alternator charging - it took nearly 3 hours idling to fill the battery, so I'm speculating it's not really any more than using the converter to charge the battery.

markopolo · 08-18-2015, 03:26 PM

My guess is that the Trombetta relay is rated much higher than 50 amps.

booster · 08-18-2015, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Yes, that is the charger I selected. I wanted to keep the wattage the same as my original converter. I was also concerned that the cabling from the converter was 6 AWG.

I wasn't worried about charging with the converter being a problem. I knew it wouldn't output the max 45 amps, but would peak at something a bit lower - Progressive Dynamics told me to expect 35 amps. It's probably pretty close considering the charge times.

No, I was more worried about blowing the circuit breaker/relay from the alternator charging. I do have 1 AWG wiring, so I thought I would be OK at 100 amps that the battery could theoretically draw. But the electrical schematic shows the relay is 50 amps. So I expected that to pop right away on my deep depletion test I ran a few weeks ago.

It just didn't happen. For some reason, it's nowhere near that kind of current on alternator charging - it took nearly 3 hours idling to fill the battery, so I'm speculating it's not really any more than using the converter to charge the battery.

It would be interesting to get a clamp on ammeter on it to see what it is really pulling and for how low long. Most breakers will allow a fairly hefty overcurrent for quite a long time, and with the smallish battery you may be staying within that window as the current peaks and then drops rapidly.

It still is kind of odd though as they talk about lithium accepting 5C or more current when even not all the way down in SOC.

wincrasher · 08-18-2015, 03:33 PM

If that was the case, I'd think I'd have quicker charging than I experienced.

Although, thinking about it, how would I really know the relay popped? I assume it re-sets itself when the load drops down below the threshold, or it just breaks and you need to replace it?

You mean test with something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Extech-MA120-A...=clamp+ammeter

booster · 08-18-2015, 03:37 PM

If it is the little metal can Cole-Hersee like most use, it will reset. You may, or may not, hear it click both ways, but it can be tough with the engine running. Just check the voltage at the coach battery during the test and see if it drops and comes back on in a bit.

They have a #1 cable with a 50 amp breaker?

wincrasher · 08-18-2015, 03:52 PM

Yep. I think they just standardized the cable for all the vans - some have 2 batteries, some have 1.

wincrasher · 08-18-2015, 06:06 PM

Interesting the Stark Battery folks say this charger shuts off when the battery reaches 14.6 volts. https://store.starkpower.com/12V-LiF...-40A_p_74.html

booster · 08-18-2015, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Interesting the Stark Battery folks say this charger shuts off when the battery reaches 14.6 volts. https://store.starkpower.com/12V-LiF...-40A_p_74.html

May be just how the phrased it. They say it "stops charging", not that is shuts off. It is the same series as yours, I think, and made by PD.

wincrasher · 08-18-2015, 06:51 PM

Well, I ordered a clamp on ammeter, so I'll soon know more about what is going on. Stay tuned.

markopolo · 08-18-2015, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markopolo

My guess is that the Trombetta relay is rated much higher than 50 amps.

I sent an email to Winnebago and got a speedy reply

I did not ask what the brand of the relay is.

Ratings / capacity: (I got the part #'s from the schematics on their site)

SOLENOID-SEALED 8188-01-000 - 100 Amp continuous, 500 Amp intermittent

CABLE ASM-STARTER (RED) 185087-01-063 - 1 Gauge battery cable - 150 amp

CABLE ASM-COACH BATTERY (YEL) 141415-52-022 - 1 Gauge battery cable - 150 amp

booster · 08-18-2015, 10:24 PM

I just searched that relay and got a Winnebago wiring diagram for something, maybe a trailer, but it may be typical.

It shows a 50 amp breaker, but it also shows a 300 amp fuse.

Could Wincrasher also have a fuse besides the breaker? 50 amps would be typical for feeding the coach from the batteries, so that may be what the breaker is for.

Got a link to the correct wiring page?

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