Travato LiFePO4 Battery Install

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

Why does the inverter need to be on at all times? Why wouldn't you design it so most devices/appliances operated on 12V so you could leave the noisy, power sucking inverter off when not needed?

For one, the Outback inverter is not noisy. You pretty much are not aware it is on. Secondly, the electrical use of our B is totally transparent and no different whether plugged into shore power or not.

We rarely plug into shore power and thus where we stop for the night is not dependent on shore power. We don't have to reset the clock on the microwave all the time. We can brew coffee while getting fuel. All our 120v outlets are always hot and ready. Our articulated beds are 120v operated. It is just plain convenient not having to think about turning something on and off. We have more than enough battery reserve not to worry about it. Maybe if we ever parked some place for more than four days without driving we might think to turn off the inverter when not needed. It is just a touch screen tap to do so. But then I would have to reset the time on the blinking microwave.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Well stated, and exactly the point that several of us have made in the past. It seems inordinately impractical to take a native 12v system and run it through an inverter all the time to get 110 volt, just so you don't have to get some 12v adapters, etc. The micro and the air conditioning are about all we have on 110v, except for short run hair dryer or curling iron. We turn on the inverter to run those things (not AC) when we need it instead of using power all day and night. We use about 1/6 of the amp hours that davydd does. We don't drink coffee, so I get to stay out of that discussion

except it doesn;t if read the specs of the inverter/converter.chargers that roadtrek uses when it detects shore power it passes thru. for full shore power. i have a 2000 watt inverter/converter/charger that allows full shore power,

the device has to be ON though to do the battery charging and 120 to 12 volt conversion. when it's plugged in the inverter part is not actually inverting



Read the first paragraph

http://www.aimscorp.net/Power-Inverter-Charger/



here is the paragraph

Pure Sine Inverter Chargers
The AIMS Power inverter charger is a great all in one package that can be used in multiple applications. Not only does the inverter take DC power and convert it to AC, but it can also automatically charge a battery bank and automatically switch when connected to AC power. This inverter has 2 inputs, DC and AC. When connected to AC power, the unit will pass the AC power through it (generator/city power), as well as charge and maintain the battery bank. As soon as the AC power is disconnected, generator is shut off or city power is lost, the inverter will automatically switch to the DC battery source.

read the 5th and sixth lines

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

except it doesn;t if read the specs of the inverter/converter.chargers that roadtrek uses when it detects shore power it passes thru. for full shore power. i have a 2000 watt inverter/converter/charger that allows full shore power,

the device has to be ON though to do the battery charging and 120 to 12 volt conversion. when it's plugged in the inverter part is not actually inverting



Read the first paragraph

Power Inverter Charger - AimsPower



here is the paragraph

Pure Sine Inverter Chargers
The AIMS Power inverter charger is a great all in one package that can be used in multiple applications. Not only does the inverter take DC power and convert it to AC, but it can also automatically charge a battery bank and automatically switch when connected to AC power. This inverter has 2 inputs, DC and AC. When connected to AC power, the unit will pass the AC power through it (generator/city power), as well as charge and maintain the battery bank. As soon as the AC power is disconnected, generator is shut off or city power is lost, the inverter will automatically switch to the DC battery source.

read the 5th and sixth lines

Gerry, I have no idea what you are trying to tell us. Nearly all inverter/chargers have an automatic pass through relay so when you plug in you get shore power to the outlets. When you disconnect, then the inverter will take over the 110 volt power to the outlets IF THE INVERTER SECTION OF THE UNIT IS TURNED ON. If it is not turned on, you don't have 110 power and you aren't wasting energy. Now if you have a less than stellar inverter/charger that doesn't let you shut off the inverter section only, I can't help that. Even the cheapo Tripplite that came in our Roadtrek 190 could do that. The Magnum we are putting in stays powered up all the time off the batteries, but all that runs is the battery monitor if you have the charger section and inverter section turned off. They have separate on/off buttons on the remote.

As I said, I totally miss your point. What you describe the Aims having is in nearly all units, but if you can't just turn off the inverter side, and have to turn off the whole thing, you won't automatically charge the batteries when you plug in, like other units, until you turn it back on.

What we were discussing was to turn off the inverter section that draws quite a bit of power, or a standalone inverter if that is what you have. The charger section is nearly no power used when no shore power is present, and the monitor is a tiny load, so with the inverter off and not plugged in there nearly no battery use compared to if the inverter section was on.

I guess you will just have to explain what the Aims has that is so special, as I don't see anything that stands above other units.

[gerrym51]

what i'm telling you is the inverter is turned off when it's plugged in=it turned off automatically.

i don't understand what you want

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

what i'm telling you is the inverter is turned off when it's plugged in=it turned off automatically.

i don't understand what you want

Of course it is turned off when you are plugged in because you don't need it when you have shore power, they all do that, and even if it was on you wouldn't kill batteries because the charger would be running. What you need to be able to do is turn it off when you are not plugged in, so you don't use the power it takes just idling, or in search mode. From the manual I looked at (chose the 2000 watt pure sine wave one), it looks like it could use about 1.5 amps idling which is a lot in 24 hours (36AH). You would only turn it on when you want to run a 110 volt device, and then turn it off again, with an easy button push.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Of course it is turned off when you are plugged in because you don't need it when you have shore power, they all do that, and even if it was on you wouldn't kill batteries because the charger would be running. What you need to be able to do is turn it off when you are not plugged in, so you don't use the power it takes just idling, or in search mode. From the manual I looked at (chose the 2000 watt pure sine wave one), it looks like it could use about 1.5 amps idling which is a lot in 24 hours (36AH). You would only turn it on when you want to run a 110 volt device, and then turn it off again, with an easy button push.

i have my inverter/charger SHUT OFF all the time when i;m not plugged in-i only put it on when i want to use a 120 volt device- i still don't know what your talking about

I DO HAVE A REMOTE ON/OFF SWITCH OVER THE SLIDING DOOR RIGHT NEXT TO THE BATTERY SWTCH! I only turn it on if plugged in OR i want to use 120 volt device. why do you think we can't turn it off

the people hav ing issues FORGOT TO TURN IT OFF.

[Davydd]

Having my inverter on I am guessing draws down about 72 amps per day off the batteries. I can easily afford that for the transparent convenience I described. If Booster is getting by with 1/6 it isn't just the inverter. It is because he deliberately uses or has less powered things.

[avanti]

Just for completeness, note also that many inverters have a "sense" mode where the inverter is off but periodically sends a pulse through teh AC circuits to detect a load over a certain threshold, at which time it turns on automatically. The Outback has this feature, but I have never tried it, since I find a convenient physical on/off switch to be optimal, and we have very few AC loads anyway. Plus, it still wouldn't preserve the time on DavyDD's microwave.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i have my inverter/charger SHUT OFF all the time when i;m not plugged in-i only put it on when i want to use a 120 volt device- i still don't know what your talking about

I DO HAVE A REMOTE ON/OFF SWITCH OVER THE SLIDING DOOR RIGHT NEXT TO THE BATTERY SWTCH! I only turn it on if plugged in OR i want to use 120 volt device. why do you think we can't turn it off

the people hav ing issues FORGOT TO TURN IT OFF.

OK, now we are getting there! What it sounds like is that you can't, or you don't, shut off just the inverter section of your Aims unit, leaving the charger section on and ready for when you plug in to shore power. In that case, I can easily see how people forget to turn the unit back off when they unplug from shore power every time. That would be a big PITA to me. Are you sure you can't turn off just the inverter section, leaving the charger ready to use? If not, I have never seen one like that.

As Avanti says, the search function is on most of the units now, also, and the Aims did say they had it in the manual I read. They were not clear as to what the power use was in that mode, though, as several numbers were mentioned. The folks I know that have units with the standby don't really use it, saying it takes more power than off (Duh) and is very picky on threshold setting, either not coming on, or coming on when not wanted. Most will turn on the inverter section only when needed, and a few do it like Davydd and let it run full time. And, yep, the clock thing bugs them because the clocks only run sometimes. I still have the Magnum on the bench, so I will put it into search mode today and see how much power it uses compared to having it just sitting with the inverter section on.

On edit--don't need to test the search power use, found it in the specs. The Magnum MS200 shows <8 watts (<16AH per day) in search mode and 25 watts (48+AH per day) with the inverter on with no load. Both are significant power uses, compared to our normal use.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

OK, now we are getting there! What it sounds like is that you can't, or you don't, shut off just the inverter section of your Aims unit, leaving the charger section on and ready for when you plug in to shore power. In that case, I can easily see how people forget to turn the unit back off when they unplug from shore power every time. That would be a big PITA to me. Are you sure you can't turn off just the inverter section, leaving the charger ready to use? If not, I have never seen one like that.

As Avanti says, the search function is on most of the units now, also, and the Aims did say they had it in the manual I read. They were not clear as to what the power use was in that mode, though, as several numbers were mentioned. The folks I know that have units with the standby don't really use it, saying it takes more power than off (Duh) and is very picky on threshold setting, either not coming on, or coming on when not wanted. Most will turn on the inverter section only when needed, and a few do it like Davydd and let it run full time. And, yep, the clock thing bugs them because the clocks only run sometimes. I still have the Magnum on the bench, so I will put it into search mode today and see how much power it uses compared to having it just sitting with the inverter section on.

Correct-the triplite 750 allows charge only-but not these.It's either all on or all off. many newbies are under the impression that the battery switch shuts everything off-it does not-the inverter/converter/charger is independent of the battery switch and needs to be shut off or put on. I always advise look at the microwave- it's settings blink or show numbers when the inverter is on

[avanti]

It is an important question whether a main battery shutoff is upstream or downstream of the inverter <-> battery connection. When we got our van, it was similar to GERRYM's, i.e. it did NOT turn off the inverter. I think that changing this was the very first mod that I made. When I turn my battery switch to OFF, I want it to mean OFF, i.e., no parasitic loads of any kind (and, I suspect that most inverter/chargers have some load even if you remember to shut them down). The only things upstream of my main switch are the connection to the solar controller and the TriMetric meter.

Of course, this requires a hefty switch if you have a big inverter. I use one of the nice BlueSea remote switches.

[ptourin]

Interesting point. The only thing between my switch and my lith phospates is the shunt for the Victron monitor. In their documentation they're very clear that the monitor draws a small amount of current and can totally discharge the battery even when the switch is off. That means that if I'm going to charge the batteries before winter storage and rely on the specs saying that they don't lose much charge and should last over the winter, I need to disconnect the batteries at the terminals before storage.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

It is an important question whether a main battery shutoff is upstream or downstream of the inverter <-> battery connection. When we got our van, it was similar to GERRYM's, i.e. it did NOT turn off the inverter. I think that changing this was the very first mod that I made. When I turn my battery switch to OFF, I want it to mean OFF, i.e., no parasitic loads of any kind (and, I suspect that most inverter/chargers have some load even if you remember to shut them down). The only things upstream of my main switch are the connection to the solar controller and the TriMetric meter.

Of course, this requires a hefty switch if you have a big inverter. I use one of the nice BlueSea remote switches.

That is one of the things we went over a while ago, in the discussion of where the solar controller should connect, before or after the disconnect. Losses you can't shut off are bad, but the solar going before the disconnect prevents spikes, so the manufacturers want battery on it all the time--catch 22. I am going to put ours before the disconnect, but have a pullable fuse for storage times. That is a sidelight to what Gerry has, however, in that he has to shut off the charger section of the inverter charger to get the inverter section off, necessitating remembering to shut the unit off every time you come off shore power, and turn it back on when you plug in, if you don't want the parasitic of the inverter when on batteries. All 3 systems we have played with (Tipplite, separate inverter and charger, and Magnum) all allowed the charger to auto connect to shore power whenever you plugged in with the inverter section off until you turned it on for a use.

The Magnum appears to have 5 different combinations of activity. If you have the main on switch off, nothing works. If you have the main on but the inverter and charger buttons off all you get is the battery monitor. You can then turn on either or both of the inverter and charger buttons to have them active (3 possibilities). I am sure all 5 of the options us different amounts of power. Only the main power switch is not on the remote, as it is on the main unit. I would imagine that Avanti's Outback is similar.

ptourin--are you saying they have the shunt in the positive battery cable? Everything I have seen for digital meters puts it in the negative cable. The Magnum has the power for battery the meter section of the unit coming from a separate power source via it's own wire, so you can take it from before or after the master disconnect if you want, but the shunt itself is in the negative cable and uses no power.

[gerrym51]

I'm 99 percent sure that when i shut off my inverter/charger that it is off.

i check once a week to see my van in storage if i am not using it. My solar controller always seems to be working-i go during the day.

my solar controller always shows battery is FULL-in this situation.

my idiot lights always show full.

this is with my battery switch OFF

However i have an AGM battery.

Lithium batteries have different rules. whats good for agm is bad for lithium and vice versa.

the people who buy ecotrek so far seem to think in AGM mindset that can't be applied to lithium

some of them can't understand why the lithiums have their own separate shut off at all.

the lack of an instruction manual for ecotrek is causing most issues

[avanti]

Since I store my vehicle outdoors, there seems to always be enough solar input to power the solar controller and the Trimetric even under poor conditions, so in my case the tiny remaining load is not an issue. If I stored indoors, I would worry more about it.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Since I store my vehicle outdoors, there seems to always be enough solar input to power the solar controller and the Trimetric even under poor conditions, so in my case the tiny remaining load is not an issue. If I stored indoors, I would worry more about it.

From what I have seen on our current system, the Trimetric is something like .2 amps. Not huge, but would kill you over long storage with no storage. We see about .4-- .6 amps with the the coach switch off (no detectors) but the Trimetric and Blue Sky controller active. Even a 100 watt panel in horrible sun should take care of that. We do store indoors, so we can either do full disconnect of batteries with master and fuse pull, or plug in full time. I think I will try the full time plug in this winter once the new system is in, because the charger can be set to do full shutoff, and only come on when the battery voltage drops to a set level. It will then do a return amp charge to bring the batteries back up, and then shut off and monitor again.

[ptourin]

Booster, I said it wrong - meant to say that the only thing that's powered with the switch off is the monitor. Shunt is on the negative battery lead, and it's the monitor that draws that tiny bit of current. With both the RV, the monitor and the documentation down on Mass, I can't remember from where the monitor draws its power - but I'll bet their schematic had me pull it directly from the battery. Sometime over the next few weeks it's going to start getting below freezing overnight down in Salem, and I'll get the RV back - Jean will head to a B&B and I'll get to play again for a while before it goes into Winter storage.

[Davydd]

I just double checked by asking. When I hit the battery disconnect switch it disconnects my batteries 100%. There are no parasitic draws.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I just double checked by asking. When I hit the battery disconnect switch it disconnects my batteries 100%. There are no parasitic draws.

Are they also disconnecting the solar panels to prevent spikes when you turn the disconnect back on?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Are they also disconnecting the solar panels to prevent spikes when you turn the disconnect back on?

...and, if the solar panels remain connected, does the system that keeps track of your SOC (which must be disconnected, since it represents a parasitic load) "miss" any solar charging current that occurs while the master switch is off?

[I ask, because they might not consider the solar panel and its controller a "load" and thus may leave it connected.]