Shop talk

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Re: transmission fluid drain. The 4L80-E took about 4.5L of Dexron VI using the drain plug to drain. I think it takes 7.2L if you drop the pan.
Re: differential. I was only able to pump out 2.2L (just over 1/2 gallon) of oil out of the fill hole.

I just got a chance to check the transmission fluid on our after the pan off oil change. Manual calls out 7.7 quarts, I put in 7, and I just had to siphon out over a quart. How can they be that far off?

[markopolo]

It's a mystery...

I waste so much time trying to see the transmission fluid level on the dipstick. I just have the hardest time seeing it. The stick gets wet but I can't really tell the level as it runs so quickly. I tried to dull the dipstick today with sandpaper. It didn't help much so I might try a coarser grade. I'd be happy with even an accurate cold reading.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

It's a mystery...

I waste so much time trying to see the transmission fluid level on the dipstick. I just have the hardest time seeing it. The stick gets wet but I can't really tell the level as it runs so quickly. I tried to dull the dipstick today with sandpaper. It didn't help much so I might try a coarser grade. I'd be happy with even an accurate cold reading.

Same problem here, I also dulled the stick with Scotchbrite, which only helped a little. I have, on other sticks put center punch marks on them to hold the oil better, which kind of helped. Sometimes cold readings are easier for me, sometimes not.

All this aside, I actually had an experience yesterday that was easy to read the level on the Buick, which I have had the same hard to read issues in the past. I started the car an drove about 15 miles to Fleetfarm, and since the parking lot was nice and flat, figured I would check the fluid after the recent change. I didn't shut if off at all, just went through all the gears and into park. Pulled the stick, didn't wipe it and put it back in like I usually would, and they tell you to. I just looked at it as it came out. The fluid level was EASY to see, with a sharp cutoff and nothing above it to confuse me. I think what happens is that when you pull the stick up the tube, it deposits some fluid on the tube. You put the stick back in and pull it out again, and it has picked up some of the fluid above the actual level, messing up the reading. Since I had been driving, the tube was nice and warm so all left over fluid went down into the pan, and since I only pulled the stick out, there was no fluid to pick up. I know in the past I have found if I am adding fluid, it is impossible to read the level unless I let it sit a long time, so it makes sense. I need to try it on the van when I get it back out, to see if it works there also. I will also repeat the test with the Buick next time out, I think.

I have read that the difficulty in reading the level is why they are going to sealed transmissions that they check the level electronically on. Plus they get you into the dealer to get the reading so they can sell you something

[markopolo]

I'll try that today. It's cold but nice and sunny. Great day to take the van out for a scenic drive.

I ordered a lot of parts this morning Complete Timken front wheel bearings (around $60 so why not), Hellwig rear sway bar, Bilstein shocks, ACDelco alternator, Moog relay rod (drag link). Fun projects coming up.

[WJones]

I have also had problems reading the transmission fluid level on my 1999 Chevy Express. To avoid residual fluid inside the tube, I was thinking of trying the following. I would remove the dipstick and plug the tube with a rubber stopper of some sort. I would then drive until the transmission has warmed up, park on a flat surface and insert a clean dipstick into a clean tube and then pull it out to read it. The tube will be contaminated by the dipstick on the way out, but that souldn't affect the reading.

Any thoughts ???

William
1990C200P

[booster]

Originally Posted by WJones

I have also had problems reading the transmission fluid level on my 1999 Chevy Express. To avoid residual fluid inside the tube, I was thinking of trying the following. I would remove the dipstick and plug the tube with a rubber stopper of some sort. I would then drive until the transmission has warmed up, park on a flat surface and insert a clean dipstick into a clean tube and then pull it out to read it. The tube will be contaminated by the dipstick on the way out, but that souldn't affect the reading.

Any thoughts ???

William
1990C200P

I think that would work very well, and is a good idea. Perhaps a trip to the junk yard to get a second dipstick. You could then cut the top off, and it would work as a locking plug, like the original. I have heard of fluid blowing out of the tubes if they get open, but have never seen it myself.

Let us know if you try it!

[markopolo]

I like that idea I'm going to try it for sure.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by WJones

............... To avoid residual fluid inside the tube, I was thinking of trying the following. I would remove the dipstick and plug the tube with a rubber stopper of some sort. I would then drive until the transmission has warmed up, park on a flat surface and insert a clean dipstick into a clean tube and then pull it out to read it. The tube will be contaminated by the dipstick on the way out, but that shouldn't affect the reading................

This method worked great today. It gave the same result as booster's hot pull / no wipe method but with a clearer fluid level demarcation. Looks like I overfilled a bit when I changed the fluid so I'll drain some out.

[booster]

Sounds like we have two ways around a very irritating problem. Thanks for testing Marko.

[WJones]

Originally Posted by markopolo

This method worked great today. It gave the same result as booster's hot pull / no wipe method but with a clearer fluid level demarcation. Looks like I overfilled a bit when I changed the fluid so I'll drain some out.

Mark,

You beat me to it!!! I wasn't able to get out with the RT to actually try it. You motivated me to get out and do it ... before putting it away for the winter (or part of it at least).

Thanks for the feedback.

William

[markopolo]

Re: transmission fluid level check

Booster does your manual show the COLD level check engine running with transmission temperature between 80°F and 90°F and the HOT level check engine running and transmission temperature between 180°F and 200°F?

1. Start the engine and operate the vehicle for 15 minutes or until the transmission fluid reaches an operating temperature of 82-93°C (180-200°F).
2. Park the vehicle on a level surface.
3. With your foot on the brake, move the shift lever through each gear range. Pause for about three seconds in each range, ending in Park.
4. Apply the parking brake and let the engine idle for three minutes.
5. Remove the transmission fluid level indicator. Wipe the indicator clean. Insert the indicator. Give the indicator a full twist in order to close.
6. Wait three seconds and remove the indicator.
7. Read both sides of the indicator. The proper fluid level should be in the middle of the X-hatch.

Also, does your manual say to "Give the indicator a full twist in order to close"?

Edit: There's no way that the dipstick will twist (my '97 van). That must be for a different type tube. My van has the clamp type locking top indicator stick.
Also, I've found that if I insert the indicator stick with the markings facing down (not up) then when I pull the indicator stick out the marking are up and ready to be read. The underside of the indicator stick seems to get wiped off on the way up and out so I really can only read one side.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Re: transmission fluid level check

Booster does your manual show the COLD level check engine running with transmission temperature between 80°F and 90°F and the HOT level check engine running and transmission temperature between 180°F and 200°F?

Also, does your manual say to "Give the indicator a full twist in order to close"?

Edit: There's no way that the dipstick will twist (my '97 van). That must be for a different type tube. My van has the clamp type locking top indicator stick.
Also, I've found that if I insert the indicator stick with the markings facing down (not up) then when I pull the indicator stick out the marking are up and ready to be read. The underside of the indicator stick seems to get wiped off on the way up and out so I really can only read one side.

I just looked at our factory service manual, and it is essentially the exact same statement, hot and cold.

When I put the stick into ours, it gets springy the last inch or two, and sometimes a twist helps, but not often. I have wondered if the springyness was keeping the stick from getting all the way in. The stick does turn as I pull it out, though. I also have to start it right or the lock winds up in the wrong place and hits things so it won't lock. The Buick does the same thing, only worse.

[markopolo]

I wish there was a plug on the side of the transmission that you open and it would allow the fluid to "overflow" once it was at the right level cold / parked unused overnight. Just like the plug in the differential housing - you can't overfill that.

My Scangauge shows the tranny fluid temp at 127F after driving 45 minutes with outside air temp at 44F today. 80F or so over ambient. There's no way I'll see 180F transmission fluid temperature before next Summer and probably not even then with the extra cooler on the van.

I've been fussing with the ATF for too many days now I thought it was too high so I drained some & then it was clearly too low, so I added some & so on & so on. The fluid level after a 45 minute drive is right below the "hot" x'd area now so I don't know if I should add a bit or not.
The "hot" & "cold" isn't what I'd expect. "Hot" requires really high temperatures and "Cold" should be when parked overnight not in use. Instead, "Cold" is after a 10 minute drive in my van with the cold weather this week. It dipped below freezing last night.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I wish there was a plug on the side of the transmission that you open and it would allow the fluid to "overflow" once it was at the right level cold / parked unused overnight. Just like the plug in the differential housing - you can't overfill that.

My Scangauge shows the tranny fluid temp at 127F after driving 45 minutes with outside air temp at 44F today. 80F or so over ambient. There's no way I'll see 180F transmission fluid temperature before next Summer and probably not even then with the extra cooler on the van.

I've been fussing with the ATF for too many days now I thought it was too high so I drained some & then it was clearly too low, so I added some & so on & so on. The fluid level after a 45 minute drive is right below the "hot" x'd area now so I don't know if I should add a bit or not.
The "hot" & "cold" isn't what I'd expect. "Hot" requires really high temperatures and "Cold" should be when parked overnight not in use. Instead, "Cold" is after a 10 minute drive in my van with the cold weather this week. It dipped below freezing last night.

Yep, and they make a huge deal in the manuals about only using the cold reading to make sure you don't kill it before you can get a hot reading. Very frustrating, and we are with you. The hottest we have ever seen our trans temp was 188 going up a semi-mountain in Custer Park. Most of the time it runs in the 150 -160 range, unless it is really hot out.

I was also thinking about a level setting plug in the side of the pan. Of course it would violate the rules because it probably would only work right when it wasn't running. I do believe that you could get a static reading to be quite accurate, though, if the van sat long enough before checking it. Then the overflow plug would work. I checked ours a couple of days ago, after sitting for over a week, level in the garage, and it was about 1" above the hot full mark. After a long sit, I would think that would be an accurate reading to use, and I am going to play with that a bit, to see how it repeats after running. I know from changing the fluid, that the level is not higher than the pan top flange, so the valve body shouldn't be influencing anything. That might be the level to put the overflow plug, and to put an extra mark on the stick.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

..................................I checked ours a couple of days ago, after sitting for over a week, level in the garage, and it was about 1" above the hot full mark. After a long sit, I would think that would be an accurate reading to use, and I am going to play with that a bit, to see how it repeats after running. I know from changing the fluid, that the level is not higher than the pan top flange, so the valve body shouldn't be influencing anything. That might be the level to put the overflow plug, and to put an extra mark on the stick.

Re: "put an extra mark on the stick" I'm going to do that. It will be the "van parked at least overnight mark". I'm zeroing in on the right level. I was just a little under the "hot" x'd area last time i checked so I put 400ml (13.5oz) ATF in and after 40 minutes of driving today the level was over. I should have put in 200ml (6.75oz) I plan on draining it again soon as the old & new atf would have mixed by now so after another drain and fill it will be mostly new Dexron VI in the transmission.

[WJones]

Well, did one of you finally zero in on the "van parked at least overnight mark"? My RT is parked for the winter, so I can't drive it to bring the transmission fluid up to temperature.

William

[booster]

Originally Posted by WJones

Well, did one of you finally zero in on the "van parked at least overnight mark"? My RT is parked for the winter, so I can't drive it to bring the transmission fluid up to temperature.

William

I marked the stick with a small temporary scratch with the current cold reading, and have run it a couple of times since. After two days it has come back right on the mark each time. The problem is that I am not certain I am at the correct level because I just changed the fluid, and did not get a chance to get it out and fully warm to check it. I will do that in the spring. It does appear that with the proper mark, you could be very close and repeatable. On our 6.0, the mark is about 1" above the full, but I am not sure it is right yet.

[markopolo]

Same here. My scratch mark is a about 1 1/4" above hot on the stick and I think it (the mark) is a bit high after a subsequent hot check. I just drained the trans fluid for the third time in less than a month and figure it must be at least 75% new fluid in there now (each drain was around 4qts). The new cold mark is handy. I filled the transmission but kept it below that scratch mark. I'll run the van sometime in the next week to check it hot and I'll make a new cold mark if the hot level is accurate. I think I have the level figured out now - I should have with all the practice The dipstick is on the bench and I'm using William's plug idea when doing the checks.

[WJones]

Booster and Markopolo,

I imagine you both have the 4L80E transmission?

I'm glad to hear that the cold readings are consistent. I was afraid that a varying amount of fluid might remain somewhere - torque converter or elsewhere - and mess everything up.

I don't check the transmission fluid as often as the oil level because of the classic way of doing it (fluid at operating temperature). I check the oil before starting off in the morning because the van is usually on a flat surface. I always intend to check the transmission fluid on our first stop, but that seldom happens. Checking it cold, even if it isn't as precise, is a whole lot better than nothing.

Will try this out on our next outing - either this winter, going south or next spring.

William

[markopolo]

Yes - both of us have 4L80E transmissions. I should be able to do some stuff with my van tomorrow. The forecast is for a sunny day so I'll take it for a drive and check the trans fluid.