Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[peteco]

Does it make sense to get a set of these Moog caster/camber adjusters? I figure in the long run they might pay off as I plan to keep the Roadtrek a long time.

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/_pdf_E ... 716_En.pdf

Pete
RT2006 210P

[Photog]

Originally Posted by peteco

Does it make sense to get a set of these Moog caster/camber adjusters? I figure in the long run they might pay off as I plan to keep the Roadtrek a long time.

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/_pdf_E ... 716_En.pdf

Pete
RT2006 210P

They can be helpful if you need to make adjustments on a regular basis.

You may ask your alignment person if they would charge less for an alignment, if you had those installed.

[Kyronecks]

Having spent 5 hours yesterday poring over this discussion, I found it both highly educational, but also rather mind-boggling. Having little-to-no expertise in automotive engineering, I am not able to judge the arguments pro-and-con for the various proposals to lift the RT 190 further away from the ground - BUT, having damaged two waste dump-valve assemblies in the last month on my 2007 190Pop by scraping over parking lot thresholds and speed bumps (at less than 3 mph), I am desperate for a solution to the 'lift problem' that is both effective, safe and affordable. The first repair cost $1200; I don't know whether the second will get lower with practice. I am already challenged by the complex systems of this RV, and don't want to add more if I can avoid it. I am certainly reluctant to stop using the toilet, shower and sink, however, and similarly reluctant to slam on the brakes and run away every time I face a parking lot or a speed bump. I am not seeking to master rough off-road tracks and will be satisfied to have similar freedom-of-movement as the family SUV. I am not seeking to perfect the road handling design of the 190P, but don't want to increase the risk of rolling on a turn, either. Is there a solution more cost-effective than buying dump-valve assemblies in bulk lots? Are bigger tires an option?
I welcome any and all guidance.
Bob

[Photog]

Kyronecks,
You can increase the ride height by at least 2.5-inches, by installing the heavy front coils and some type of 2-inch lift in the rear. Then install a slightly taller tire (265/75R16).

When Roadtrek installs all the RV equipment, it compresses the factory suspension by 2-inches. Lifting the Roadtrek suspension by 2-inches brings the vehicle back to Chevrolet factory ride height. This should not cause any type of strange handling problems.

Booster has done this with his 190P, by installing the heavy springs in the front and air-bags in the rear.

Booster and I both enjoy the benefits of adding a rear sway bar.

In my opinion, these two suspension components should be installed by Roadtrek, before they leave the factory.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Kyronecks

Having spent 5 hours yesterday poring over this discussion, I found it both highly educational, but also rather mind-boggling. Having little-to-no expertise in automotive engineering, I am not able to judge the arguments pro-and-con for the various proposals to lift the RT 190 further away from the ground - BUT, having damaged two waste dump-valve assemblies in the last month on my 2007 190Pop by scraping over parking lot thresholds and speed bumps (at less than 3 mph), I am desperate for a solution to the 'lift problem' that is both effective, safe and affordable. The first repair cost $1200; I don't know whether the second will get lower with practice. I am already challenged by the complex systems of this RV, and don't want to add more if I can avoid it. I am certainly reluctant to stop using the toilet, shower and sink, however, and similarly reluctant to slam on the brakes and run away every time I face a parking lot or a speed bump. I am not seeking to master rough off-road tracks and will be satisfied to have similar freedom-of-movement as the family SUV. I am not seeking to perfect the road handling design of the 190P, but don't want to increase the risk of rolling on a turn, either. Is there a solution more cost-effective than buying dump-valve assemblies in bulk lots? Are bigger tires an option?
I welcome any and all guidance.
Bob

This has been quite a discussion for us, and very educational for all, I think.

As Photog states, just raising the van 2+ inches is pretty easy. Tufftruk springs in front, airbags or lift blocks in back. No need to do anything else, if you aren't trying to maximize handling. You can gain another about 1/2" by going to 265-75-16 tires, plus you get the benefit of higher load capacity, as the OEM tires are right at max in the rear.

There is another interesting, but also long, thread, on tires and wheels that you probably would want to read before doing bigger tires, as there are few things to make sure you get right when you do the swap.
http://classbforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2084
We have the bigger tires and would never go back.

[Photog]

Lift updates:

I purchased a set of 3-inch lift knuckles from Boulder Offroad. These are designed specifically for Chevy van. http://boulderoffroadvans.com/gm__ch..._van_lift_kits

The installation went in easily; no drama. Everything bolts in except for the brake lines. They need to be re-routed.

Then I ordered a set of 18" diameter wheels, with an offset closer to stock. The AR-23 wheels that come with the Roadtrek have an offset of -6mm. The factory wheels have an offset between +25mm & +29mm (depending on which factory wheel you get). The wheels we purchased have an offset of +18mm.
We chose 18" wheels, because there is a wide selection of tires for this size of wheels, that are rated for 3400 pounds and more. The factory 245/75R16E tires are too close to their maximum load for my comfort.
These are the wheels we purchased: 18x8.5 - +18mm.
http://www.visionwheel.com/wheel.cfm?id=729


These are the tires we purchased:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tir...il.do?pc=10848


So, we currently have TufTruck front coils, for a diesel van, 3-inch lift knuckles, 4-inch rear lift blocks, and 33" tires.

Our Roadtrek 190V "The Golden Pearl" now handles nicely and has 13" of ground clearance under the tanks. I have been trying to find proper rear leaf springs, but no luck yet. Air-bags are not out of the question.

Pictures will be posted soon.

[markopolo]

13" of ground clearance under the tanks

That must look pretty cool

[booster]

Do you have any info yet on the effects, positive or negative, of the much increased height and big tires on handling and fuel mileage?

[Kyronecks]

Thanx heaps for the input, gentlemen!
If I read your thread correctly you recommend:
1) New heavier coil springs from Tuftruck on the front. I can't seem to search up the Model number on these; can you supply? I would also appreciate sources in the Olympia WA area and a rough idea of price and installation cost. Do the springs mandate new shocks (30,000mi. old)? If so, do I infer that you recommend Bilsteins over the stock brand? (Again appreciate Model # and approximate costs.)

2) Blocks OR Airbags in the back (booster favoring the latter) I would appreciate a rough cost comparison for these two. I think I gather that the bags represent a more complex and expensive option, but improve the ride significantly, whereas the blocks do not. Do blocks have other advantages beside simplicity and cost? Does one last longer than the other?

Am I correct that 1 & 2 represent a minimum, viable plan for raising the van about two inches, or do the blocks/bags mandate a change in shocks or springs in the back? If the latter, can you specify models etc?

3) Bigger tires. I recently (12 days ago) bought a pair of new Toyo Open Country H/T Tuff Duty AP BW (LT245/75R-16/10 120/116R). If I do 1&2, can I stay with the smaller tires, at least till they wear out? The 2" lift may be all I need. How much more do the bigger tires cost? I appreciate the warning about "offset" complications that might also be a problem with bigger tires. Are there other advantages besides another half inch of lift? I haven't weighed my van, but assume it is a similar load on the springs and tires as on yours.

4) Sway bars. Am I correct that these do not increase road clearance, but do greatly improve the ride/handling? How much do they add to safety? I prefer to avoid costly modifications such as moving the Onan. Do you have an ideal model, given only a 2" lift?

5) Knuckles. Are these desirable if I don't absolutely need another few inches of lift? Are they an alternative to the Tuftruck springs, or an addition? How do their costs compare?

Hope I'm not pushing too hard with these questions. I'm sure some of the answers can be found in the thread above. I might reread it when I have a free five hours 8<)] It's worth it.

Bob

[booster]

Originally Posted by Kyronecks

Thanx heaps for the input, gentlemen!
If I read your thread correctly you recommend:
1) New heavier coil springs from Tufftruk on the front. I can't seem to search up the Model number on these; can you supply? I would also appreciate sources in the Olympia WA area and a rough idea of price and installation cost. Do the springs mandate new shocks (30,000mi. old)? If so, do I infer that you recommend Bilsteins over the stock brand? (Again appreciate Model # and approximate costs.)

Here is a link to the website for Tufftruk.http://www.otto-max.com/super-heavy-duty-coils.html You can call them to find a retailer in your area. You would want the TTC-1617. New shocks might be in order, and then Bilsteins would be best. The stiffer springs will try to overpower the shocks a bit, but many folks don't really notice it and are fine without a change. 30K on Chevy shocks is starting to get to the replacement range. For Bilsteins, best to call someone like E-shocks and get the proper, and current, part numbers to make sure they are correct, IMO.

2) Blocks OR Airbags in the back (booster favoring the latter) I would appreciate a rough cost comparison for these two. I think I gather that the bags represent a more complex and expensive option, but improve the ride significantly, whereas the blocks do not. Do blocks have other advantages beside simplicity and cost? Does one last longer than the other?

Blocks are cheaper to buy and put in, and require no maintenance once in. Air bags will improve ride a bit, allow you to level side to side and adjust ride height. Most of the airbags have lifetime warranty on the bags themselves, less on the associated parts. We prefer the bags for their versatility, plus it gave us an excuse to mount an on-board compressor (not needed if you don't want it) to pump up tires and run our homemade tire lifter.

Am I correct that 1 & 2 represent a minimum, viable plan for raising the van about two inches, or do the blocks/bags mandate a change in shocks or springs in the back? If the latter, can you specify models etc?

Front springs and rear blocks or bags could be the only mods and would be OK, unless the shocks are shot.

3) Bigger tires. I recently (12 days ago) bought a pair of new Toyo Open Country H/T Tuff Duty AP BW (LT245/75R-16/10 120/116R). If I do 1&2, can I stay with the smaller tires, at least till they wear out? The 2" lift may be all I need. How much more do the bigger tires cost? I appreciate the warning about "offset" complications that might also be a problem with bigger tires. Are there other advantages besides another half inch of lift? I haven't weighed my van, but assume it is a similar load on the springs and tires as on yours.

The biggest advantage of the larger tires is load capacity, IMO. The rear tires run right on max load in a Roadtrek which really isn't a good idea. The 1/2" height is a bonus. The offset issue has nothing to do with the tire size. You can have correct, or wrong, offset, with stock or bigger tires, depending on the wheels you have. We had to replace the wheels anyway, as the AR wheels Roadtrek uses were the wrong offset, so as long as we had to do that, we went with wider wheels of the correct offset and the bigger tires.

4) Sway bars. Am I correct that these do not increase road clearance, but do greatly improve the ride/handling? How much do they add to safety? I prefer to avoid costly modifications such as moving the Onan. Do you have an ideal model, given only a 2" lift?

Sway bars will do nothing for road clearance and height. Roadtreks already have a very large front bar, so only the rear can be added. Unfortunately, nobody makes an aftermarket bar that will fit a Roadtrek that has a Generator. Photog used a Ford bar and had special brackets made and welded in. We used a circle track bar and arms, and made our own mounts. The rear swaybar does make a noticeable, but definitely not essential, handling improvement, in strong winds. AFAIK, there are only 4 Roadtreks out there with rear swaybars that I know of, ours, Dick Tillinger's which is very similar, Photogs, and Campskunks (aftermarket bar, but he relocated the generator a few inches).

5) Knuckles. Are these desirable if I don't absolutely need another few inches of lift? Are they an alternative to the Tufftruk springs, or an addition? How do their costs compare?

If two inches of lift are enough, knuckles would not be desired. The two inches the springs give you put the Chevy front suspension right where it should be for best suspension and steering geometry. IMO, it will handle better with just the spring change than it did stock, or would with lift knuckles.

Hope I'm not pushing too hard with these questions. I'm sure some of the answers can be found in the thread above. I might reread it when I have a free five hours 8<)] It's worth it.

Bob

[Photog]

Originally Posted by booster

Do you have any info yet on the effects, positive or negative, of the much increased height and big tires on handling and fuel mileage?

Handling has changed a little. Before all the changes, the R/T handled like a car, with a stiff suspension. We could drive about 10MPH over the recommended cornering speed on most highways (the recommended speed is posted on a yellow sign, just before a corner). Now we have to keep that at +5MPH or lower. Now it handles more like a factory van or pickup. Not a problem, since it is actually a 9000+ pound RV.

The tires are 10% larger than stock, so our 4.11:1 gears drive more like 3.73:1 gears. Both are factory gear ratios. Many R/T owners already have 3.73:1 gears. After correcting for the 10% larger tire, we have dropped 1 MPG.

@ Kryonecks,
To add to Booster's comment on the 3" lift knuckles: The springs are a better improvement, as it places all the front suspension geometry back to stock, and gets the suspension off of the jounce bumpers (good). If you only installed the 3" knuckles, you would be 3" taller, but the suspension geometry would still be wrong, and you would still be on the jounce bumpers (not good).





These wheels keep the 275/70R18E tires tucked in nicely.

[Photog]

I had to do a little trimming to get the larger tire to fit. The corner of the plastic ground-effects had to go.

Just a little trimming. The factory bumper is behind the plastic, and it did not need any grinding for the tires to fit.

[markopolo]

I think it looks good.
Should be able get under to do an oil change with no ramps or anything.

[Kyronecks]

Status update on my repair/mod:
At last the parts have been assembled to replace the waste gate valve on my 190Pop (which I ground down a little further on another parking lot at about half-a-mile-an-hour- grrr...), and lift the whole shebang up out of harm's way. However, My repair guy is rather unenthusiastic about the TufTruck TTC 1617s in front, as a result of discussion with somebody at the manufacturer who warns that a lot of people are dissatisfied with the "rough ride" that results with those coils. I realize that this is a matter of personal perception, but I have to say that I am already conscious of the hammering that small bumps give to the RV and its contents, and would not be keen to see that problem worsen in return for more ground clearance. My repair guy suggests that air bags in front as well as back might offer a smoother ride. How does that suggestion strike the rest of you? I recognize that there may be no perfect solution, but I still am hoping for the best approximation I can get. I want this RV experience to have a happy ending. (I'm a sucker for happy endings.)
Thanx to all here assembled for adding to my education,

Bob

[Photog]

Bob,
The Tuff Truck coils are definitely stiff. The ride is better with the coils, but there is still a fair amount of harshness in the ride quality.

There is a set of air-bags that fit inside the coil springs; but you have a set of shock absorbers (dampers) in there right now. The shocks would need to be relocated outside the coils. This can be done with some other modifications.

The front of our R/T weighs 4500 lbs. This is a lot more weight than the factory coils were designed to support. That is why the suspension is riding on the jounce bumpers.

Another option is to use the factory Chevrolet coil spring, from the diesel van. The coils for the diesel powered van were designed to hold up the extra weight of the diesel engine. But, some diesel owners report this spring to be sagging after a couple years. That is why Tuff Truck came up with their beefy replacement. I don't know the specs on the factory diesel coil spring, so I do not know if it would be a final solution.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Kyronecks

Status update on my repair/mod:
At last the parts have been assembled to replace the waste gate valve on my 190Pop (which I ground down a little further on another parking lot at about half-a-mile-an-hour- grrr...), and lift the whole shebang up out of harm's way. However, My repair guy is rather unenthusiastic about the TufTruck TTC 1617s in front, as a result of discussion with somebody at the manufacturer who warns that a lot of people are dissatisfied with the "rough ride" that results with those coils. I realize that this is a matter of personal perception, but I have to say that I am already conscious of the hammering that small bumps give to the RV and its contents, and would not be keen to see that problem worsen in return for more ground clearance. My repair guy suggests that air bags in front as well as back might offer a smoother ride. How does that suggestion strike the rest of you? I recognize that there may be no perfect solution, but I still am hoping for the best approximation I can get. I want this RV experience to have a happy ending. (I'm a sucker for happy endings.)
Thanx to all here assembled for adding to my education,

Bob

As I have said before, we must be the exception on the harshness issue. We put in the 1617's and Bilstein shocks at the same time. We noticed a net change of having small bumps feel considerably less harsh and the big bumps more harsh, which is what you would expect (and want) from the variable valving of the Bisteins. The small and big bumps would probably get harsher if you had OEM shocks or especially a shock like KYB or Koni, which are very still and non variable. With the stock springs, we were right down on the bump stops, so tiny bumps were pretty normal, but anything bigger went into the very high spring rate bump stops and really got harsh and would pitch the van to the side as a result.

I just (an hour ago) got back from a 4 day trip to a Minnesota mountain bike park (first time on MTB-very interesting, but another story) and got a chance to drive our 07 190P on a bunch of different roads. Especially now that we have moved to the wider, correct offset, wheels and 265-75-16 Michelin LTX-MS2 tires, I would say the van rides much, much smoother and less harsh than it ever did before. The huge improvement is probably mostly from the tires, which most rate as very smooth riding, but getting the correct offset allows the springs and shocks to work as they are designed to work. Today on the way home we had 15+mph winds and I was on gravel, 2 lane, 4 lane, and city streets and nowhere did I find I needed more than a couple of fingers, one hand on the wheel. It is probably easier to drive than the wife's CRV, which is pretty stiff and twitchy to me.

I wish we could get all the vans with the various parts together in one place, so we all could feel what others are describing as positives, and negatives. All these things are sooooo objective, and hard to relate between different folks.

[AZ ADVenturist]

My .02 worth & 4300 miles from home driving on some of the worst hiways?? in NorthAmerica with our 190V Chevy... -And kyroneks I'm sorry didn't get back to your PM in timely manner.
But I am very satisfied with the result of the cheepo/easy lift we got with 2" blocks & air shocks in rear & coil-donuts w/gas shocks in front. Of course the 265/75-16 LTX MS2s are key to the whole system. I'm running them at 75lbs all. And the air shocks at 90 to 100. We've driven on every road surface imaginable for "improved" highway. Gravel with frost heaves, swells & pot-holes on the Cassiar is very tiresome & seems unending. The 'Alaska Highway' in Yukon Territory is mostly paved with patches of gravel every couple miles & frost heaves in between. At the Alaska Border it improves some for a while. Well, this isn't the place for a Road report - but you get the idea. The R/T drives & handles very much to my satisfaction - maybe better than before I wasted all the time & money on Tuff springs! At least it's no worse & I have the 2+" lift I wanted for the much better tires & increased ground clearance - Yay! That's about all for now, except I too (like the guy in SF) have a set of springs for sale cheap in Prescott, AZ. S/Ric.

[sfbmw]

AZ.. coil-donuts w/gas shocks in front...tell me more..???

I'm the guy in SF...Thanks

[Kyronecks]

So we now have another lift package to add to the pile - this one I'll attribute to (blame-on ) Southside RV Corvallis, but the air bags are those recommended here - Firestone #2337 in the rear. In front are coil springs from Moog (NCP 277-3437) with a larger spring rate than the originals. The shocks and leaf springs are the unchanged originals - deemed OK.
The Moog springs allow the yellow bumpers to expand to their normal thickness. Before they were compressed to about half that. The air bags lift the leaf spring end at least 3/4 inch above the rebound leaf. The ground clearance at the gate valve low-point has increased from 7 inches to 9 and a quarter inches, so we shall trust our salvation to the extra two and a quarter inches.
The technician did a test drive, judging the ride to be "a nice, firm, stable feeling" without the previous tendency to "bounce".
My own judgment will be reserved until I complete my weekend Willamette Valley winery tour, starting tomorrow. (I intend that my judgment will remain unimpaired.)
The damage
1. Replace cable gate valve and tee assemblies (Parts:$124. Labor: $522.)
2. Install rear Firestone air bags (Parts: $280. Labor: $292.)
3. Install front Moog coil springs (Parts: $377. Labor: $636.)

On with the show!
Bob

[peteco]

Originally Posted by Kyronecks

So we now have another lift package to add to the pile - this one I'll attribute to (blame-on ) Southside RV Corvallis, but the air bags are those recommended here - Firestone #2337 in the rear. In front are coil springs from Moog (NCP 277-3437) with a larger spring rate than the originals. The shocks and leaf springs are the unchanged originals - deemed OK.
Bob

What vehicle do you have? RT190 or RT210?

Pete
2006 RT210P