Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[peteco]

Originally Posted by firehawk335

Been working crazy the last 3 days.

Torques specs for the Upper Ball Joint and Tie Rod end should be sufficient.
And if you have the torque specs for the differential ring gear, bearing caps, and differential cover that would be great; and correct ring gear/pinion backlash; I'm checking into getting a TruTrac limited slip to put in too. So far it looks like about $900 + my labor. Should be a simple pull and replace using the same shims, should not have to mess with the pinion.
Thank You.

I guess I should keep it simple with regards to the lift, as I've never done a suspension lift before. Just getting it back to proper geometry and ride height will help. Guess I'll wait on any further lift until there is better solution.
Thank You.

-Chip

Upper ball joint to steering knuckle retaining nut: 37 ft lb
Lower ball joint to steering knuckle retaining nut: 74 ft lb
Outer tie rod to steering knuckle retaining nut: 47 ft lb

Differential specs depend on the axle. My 2006 RT 210P looks like it has the 9.75 inch rear axle. What axle do you have? Send me an email and I can send a page with all the rear specs.

[firehawk335]

Thanks for the torque specs.
I'm still trying to figure out for sure which rear differential I have. But I'm not so sure I'm going to replace it now anyways. I was doing a VIN decode to determine the correct size and found that I have a G80 RPO code which is the GM limited slip rear axle. I just know when I got it stuck only the left rear wheel was spinning. Maybe I didn't spin it long enough for it to engage? Anyways, I need to do a little more research before I order a new differential now; could be a faulty limited slip and the GM dealer can hassle with the warranty replacement.

Any comments anyone?

Here's a good VIN decode site if anyone else wants to run theirs.
http://www.compnine.com/vid.php

-Chip

[Photog]

Originally Posted by Photog

Introduction:
This thread will follow our quest to increase the ground clearance of our 2009 Roadtrek 190 Versatile. The goal is to increase ground clearance by 4" to 6". We want to use our R/T to travel the back roads (sometimes dirt), to enjoy the secluded areas of North America, and do our best to create pleasing photographic art.

Since there is no aftermarket support for these Chevrolet vans, this suspension modification will be something of an adventure. I will try to keep this first post updated, as to our current suspension system. Read all the pages of this thread, to follow along in the adventure. Other folks will add their modification ideas, pictures and experiences. I believe we will all learn something useful, by the time this adventure is complete.........................

Just some thread maintenance here. The quote above is from the 1st post in this thread. It lays out the purpose of this thread. Information about limited slip differentials and and axles, as they relate to adding more ground clearance, are OK. That is, if you are changing the differential in order to install larger tires, thereby adding ground clearance.

The problem with using this thread to discuss other subjects is: when someone comes here to read about suspension lifts for the Roadtrek, they don't want to get bogged down with posts that are not relevant to a suspension lift. Your "non-lift" information may be valuable to the readers, but they won't find it, if it is buried in a "lift" thread.

For this reason, please start a new thread that pertains to differentials, etc. You may want to copy some of the info posted in this thread, into the new thread, so it will be more complete. If you start a new thread, please post a link in this thread, so we can find it easily.

Thanks.

[Photog]

We are still on a quest for more lift. As stated earlier, we have removed the 4" lift spindles and installed a 2" lift spring. The 2" lift spring is a huge improvement over the factory setup, but it is still on 2" of lift. We were after 4"-6" of lift, from the beginning.

I like the idea of a properly designed lift spindle. The one we installed and removed was for a Silverado 2500-3500 pickup truck. The geometry was all wrong. Recently, we found this: http://www.boulderoffroadvans.com/gm__c ... _lift_kits



It seems to be a 3" spindle lift, with the proper geometry for our Chevrolet vans. With the 2" front spring lift, this would be a total of about 5". Close enough. This kit is $1,500, and the spindles alone are $1,200. I think I will purchase this kit, and report how it works out.

Then the last part of the puzzle, will be the rear leaf springs. I prefer proper leaf springs instead of airbags, just for the simplicity. RVs are complex enough, without adding another system to the vehicle. This is personal preference, of course. I am not bashing the air-bag systems.

[Photog]

Update on the front coils:

Otto-Max Part # 1617 springs are now available from SDTruckSprings.com. They are much less expensive than ordering directly from OttoMax. Just over $200. I paid $240 plus shipping and import fees (over $300 total).
http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php ... s_id=10169

[ternst]

I have a new 2011 210 Versatile and am looking for about 2" of lift for better ground clearance - I live far back on a gravel road and spend a lot of time on rough gravel roads during my day and could use a little more height. The info in this thread has been a great help so far. Does anyone have an update on a good way to do this? I know many things have been tried here, some have worked while others have not or have been upgraded, so I'm just wondering if there is an update for a good way to do this - I would hire it all done since I'm not too good with such things (I don't live near any custom 4WD/conversion shops so it is not easy for me to browse them in person in search of an answer - plus you guys have direct experience and know so much more!). Thanks for any new info you might be able to share!

[booster]

Originally Posted by ternst

I have a new 2011 210 Versatile and am looking for about 2" of lift for better ground clearance - I live far back on a gravel road and spend a lot of time on rough gravel roads during my day and could use a little more height. The info in this thread has been a great help so far. Does anyone have an update on a good way to do this? I know many things have been tried here, some have worked while others have not or have been upgraded, so I'm just wondering if there is an update for a good way to do this - I would hire it all done since I'm not too good with such things (I don't live near any custom 4WD/conversion shops so it is not easy for me to browse them in person in search of an answer - plus you guys have direct experience and know so much more!). Thanks for any new info you might be able to share!

We have been totally satisfied with our 2" lift that was done with new front springs and airbags for the rear. Several others have duplicated that setup and are also happy with the results. IMO, it is the best option available at this time.

[Photog]

Ternst,

I agree with Booster.

As a simple alternative to the airbags, a pair of 2" lift blocks will also lift the rear, to match the front. This has a small drawback though. The rear suspension has been loaded enough to sit on the overload leaf. This leaf is very stiff, contributing to a rough ride. The airbags lift is more complex; but, it gets the suspension off the overload leaf.

The front can be done with the replacement coils that Booster and I have, or Suspension Maxx has a metal coil-spring-spacer, that can be installed. The Plastic (urethane) spacers will not last, as they get crushed under the weight of our vans. These two approaches lift the front suspension, and get the suspension off the overload bumper.



I have considered switching my new coil, back to the factory spring and the spacer. The reasons are: using a softer coil and getting the suspension off of the overload bumper. I believe it would provide a softer ride, as the factory coil has a lower spring rate. The problem I see, is the spacer probably would not provide 2" of lift, as some of the force would be taken up, just to get the load off the overload bumper.

I have a set of the Suspension Maxx spacers, if you would like to put them into service. Just don't count on them providing 2" of lift. Snap-On sells a spring compressor that makes installing the spacer very easy. I would use it to hold the spring in a compressed position, then lower the suspension, insert the spacer, and raise the suspension back against the spring. Remove tool, and reinstall shock. All done.

[ternst]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your comments. It will probably be next month before I have the time to go find a 4WD or other service facility that would be able to install this stuff - I won't be doing any of it myself, I'm a wimp. I'll keep watch here in case there are any updates.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

Ternst,

I agree with Booster.

As a simple alternative to the airbags, a pair of 2" lift blocks will also lift the rear, to match the front. This has a small drawback though. The rear suspension has been loaded enough to sit on the overload leaf. This leaf is very stiff, contributing to a rough ride. The airbags lift is more complex; but, it gets the suspension off the overload leaf.

The front can be done with the replacement coils that Booster and I have, or Suspension Maxx has a metal coil-spring-spacer, that can be installed. The Plastic (urethane) spacers will not last, as they get crushed under the weight of our vans. These two approaches lift the front suspension, and get the suspension off the overload bumper.



I have considered switching my new coil, back to the factory spring and the spacer. The reasons are: using a softer coil and getting the suspension off of the overload bumper. I believe it would provide a softer ride, as the factory coil has a lower spring rate. The problem I see, is the spacer probably would not provide 2" of lift, as some of the force would be taken up, just to get the load off the overload bumper.

I have a set of the Suspension Maxx spacers, if you would like to put them into service. Just don't count on them providing 2" of lift. Snap-On sells a spring compressor that makes installing the spacer very easy. I would use it to hold the spring in a compressed position, then lower the suspension, insert the spacer, and raise the suspension back against the spring. Remove tool, and reinstall shock. All done.

One thing that may, or may not, be an issue with using the spring spacers, is kind of specific to the way the Chevy front suspension is designed. The "bump stops" we all are referring to are not truly bump stops, but are really beehive shaped urethane overload springs. They do the same thing as the rear, massive, overload leaf, which is to add capacity to the suspension when heavily loaded. In the front, the springs compress and carry the entire load until the bump stop is hit, and then it picks up most of the extra load after that. If you put in a spacer to keep the suspension off the bump stop, the spring has to compress much further to pick up the extra load. This may put the spring past its design limits for compression and cause a spring failure. The stock spring has a much higher spiral rate (less coils) than the Tufftruck spring, presumably because the factory is looking for the lower cost of doing a smaller wire, higher spiral spring, to get the springrate, and counting on the bumpstop to protect the spring. That design makes the spring much more susceptible to failure from overcompression. The Tufftruck spring uses a much larger wire diameter and lower spiral (more coils) to get the springrate, so it will much less likely to be overtaxed by the extra load.

[Photog]

Booster makes a great point. Worst case, the spring fractures, and fails. Best case, there is no failure, and it produces a 1.5 -2.0" lift. But, it could also "sag". The spring could be over-compressed, past the design limits, and permanently deform, leaving the overload cushions carrying most load.

It would probably be best to design a softer spring, with the extra length and toughness necessary to carry the heavy load, and still provide a smooth ride. Forcing the factory spring to do this, by installing a spacer, may lead to some undesirable results. If someone (my self included) were to use spacers in a fully loaded suspension, they need to know what the possible outcomes could be; and the possible safety hazards.

[sfbmw]

Photog...Have read your post on the "lift" and planning on ordering the parts. However i saw a post and of course cannot find it now that stated the exprees g3500 had 2 different type frames and to be sure to order for the "closed" frame and not the "c" type frame.

Do you have the Airlift part numbers for the airbags you installed ? , don't want to order the wrong lifts

Thanks

sf

[booster]

Originally Posted by sfbmw

Photog...Have read your post on the "lift" and planning on ordering the parts. However i saw a post and of course cannot find it now that stated the exprees g3500 had 2 different type frames and to be sure to order for the "closed" frame and not the "c" type frame.

Do you have the Airlift part numbers for the airbags you installed ? , don't want to order the wrong lifts

Thanks

sf

Here is link to Airlift application guide. You will need the one for the passenger van with boxed frame, unless they have changed the vans since our 07. Take a look under yours to make certain it is a fully boxed frame, not a C channel.

http://airliftcompany.com/pdf/appguide.pdf

[sfbmw]

Thanks Booster....we have an 04 190

[booster]

Originally Posted by sfbmw

Thanks Booster....we have an 04 190

edited last post, link didn't make it

[Photog]

I contacted our local automotive spring company. They can produce custom springs, access a wide range of aftermarket springs, access factory springs from the automotive mfg's. Also, they afe the load specs for the factory springs.

I will post this info in a separate thread also.
Here is a bit of information on our R/T C190V: The Chevy factory leaf springs, as delivered to Roadtrek are part number 25756366. This number has been superseded by 20905750. Both of these springs are rated at 2485 pounds. The max axle load for a pair of these springs is 4970 pounds.

The weight of the Roadtrek C190V, with water in the tanks is over 5000 pounds; and with a typical load of traveling gear, is 5400 pounds on the rear axle (before towing anything). These leaf springs are overloaded.

To some of us, this is made obvious, by seeing the main leaf springs resting on the thick, bottom rebound (overload) spring. Booster added air bags, and adds pressure until the rebound/overload leaf has some clearance. He reports that this also provides a ride that is less harsh at the rear axle.


In this view, you can only see the forward end of the rebound leaf (arrow).
Passenger side view of rear axle/brakes/leaf spring.


There is a small gap between the leaves, because there are thin spacers between the leaves, and a rubber pad at the tip of the rebound leaf (arrow).



During normal use, the upper leaves should not be resting on the rebound leaf (on the rubber pad at the end of the rebound leaf). This condition is for the occasional "extra" load, of a 1 ton work van.

I spoke with the Chevrolet Parts department, and they suggested the spring designed for their 10k GVW van, part number 22799639.

When I spoke with our local spring dealer, he suggested the aftermarket spring #22-1175. This is a "Full Taper" leaf spring, that is rated for 3710 pound per spring, or 7420 pounds per axle. With these springs, the 5400 pound weight of the van would be only 73% of the max load of the springs. This is an excellent "normal" load for this spring. Also, the "Full Taper" springs move easier and don't normally need a rebound/overload leaf. The #22-1175 has 3 leaves (3710 pound), and the 22-1175HD had 4 leaves (4960 pounds). I think the HD would be too much spring (twice the factory spring load), and would be too stiff.

With the 22-1175, I would not need the 4" lift blocks, currently installed, and could drop down to a 1" block, or less. This will also provide for a smoother ride, with less harshness at the rear axle.

Note: The "Full Taper" springs are shaped like the rebound/overload spring in the photographs above. They are thick in the middle, and get thinner as they get close to the tips. The main leaf and all the lower leaves are 60" long. They do not get shorter, as you move down the stack, like a typical leaf pack. Each leaf has a thick spacer at the tips, and makes no contact with the upper leaf, except in the middle and tips. This system has less friction, and is reported to act much like a coil spring. We will see.

[AZ ADVenturist]

Hello Brian &/or Booster; I've been following both of your threads on lifting the RoadTrek vans.
First read Brian's on 'Expedition Portal'. You then directed me to this excellent "B" forum - thanks!
We have an '02 Chev. R/T 190V. It is currently in an independent shop in Prescott. The rear has been lifted 2" with blocks (I saw it today - looks good). We are using the Heavy duty truck coils you both suggested in front (should be done by tomorrow). The mechanic has said that he can't/won't do air bags in back because of the 'box frame'. And has shown me that the frame would have to be drilled, weakened & then reinforced somehow to handle airbags. He is also concerned with all the plumbing & wiring running along the frame member. So maybe airbags aren't feasible or cost effective. But, I like the heavy-duty leaf springs that Brian writes about, but wonder if You got any price quotes on them? I'm also considering the rear sway bar that Booster installed, but want to see how it's going to handle with the blocks & coils. I appreciate any addt'l input...
Both of you have provided very valuable info. I look forward to learning more from You.
Thanks very much. Ric. in Ariz.

[Photog]

The 22-1175 leaf springs are about $250 each. Need two for the vehicle.
http://www.autoandtrucksprings.com/prod ... 870-0.html

If there are concerns about drilling out a boxed frame, then just sleeve it, so the compression of the bolt does not crush the box. Sometimes there are nuts in the frame, that can be good attach points, and there are other ways to get around the "boxed frame" issue.

I like the idea of starting with springs that are appropriate for the load. But, air bags have the benefit of being adjustable.

Booster's sway-bar is very well done. I may need something with more stiffness than my Ford sway-bar, when the suspension is finally complete. Not sure yet.

[AZ ADVenturist]

Brian; Thanks much for the reply/info. I'll look into the 22-1175s for our R/T.
Regards, Ric.

[Photog]

Originally Posted by AZ ADVenturist

Brian; Thanks much for the reply/info. I'll look into the 22-1175s for our R/T.
Regards, Ric.

There are other choices, but the 22-1175 is what I am going to start with.