Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

Booster,
Have you ever measured the amount of remaining droop (down travel), left in your suspension, since the lift?

Basically measuring from a place on the wheel to the fender, then jack under the frame until the tire lifts off the ground, and measure again. The difference in the two numbers is the amount of droop from ride height.

I did some measuring on Saturday, and I get 3" of droop, before the upper ball joint reaches its limits.

Based on some of the design differences between the factory knuckle and my 4" lift knuckle, I think the factory knuckle would allow more than 4" of droop from standard ride height of the RT RV. On your RT, you have used up 2" of that droop, with the new spring lift. I believe this puts your suspension back to stock ride height (if I read the other forum correctly). I am wondering how much droop you have left, with the factory suspension components. I think there should be more than 2" left.

If there is only a total of 4" of droop, from RT ride height, then a typical spring-and-spacer lift of 4" would use up all the droop in our suspension system.

Any thoughts or measurements?

I haven't measured how much droop is on it now that the new springs are in, but I know it is not a real small number, because I have to jack it up pretty high to keep the tire off the ground when I put it on the stands. I jack from the LCA lift point, so it stays compressed as I lift. I am assuming that I am fine because I am well within the factory ride height recommendations. I also haven't looked at the downtravel bumpstop to see if it allows any movement after contact, which messes up the numbers. Next time I lift it up, I will take a check of the droop.

As an update on ours. We just got back from 4 days of leaf looking in southern MN and WI, 3 campgrounds and 550 miles of varied roads, almost all paved, but some very rough. The combination of the new springs, air bags, Bilsteins, and alignment have made a significant difference in the way the Roadtrek goes down the road. Small bumps are less harsh, big bumps more controlled and single bounce, do to the Bilsteins, I would think. Big dips, either single or both wheels are much more controlled, and always bounces straight and true, which it did not do before, probably a combination of getting off the bumps in the front and the good alignment. It also responds to the steering faster, probably because of the better rear response and alignment. On a good road with light winds, it is literally a two finger drive and very car like. Bumps don't upset the direction at all, but are irritating! Wind effects are considerably lessened, and easier to correct for because of the faster steering response. It is about as easy to control in a 10-15 mph wind as it used to be without wind.

We are very pleased with the results to this point, as we were afraid the lift would make it handle worse, especially in the wind, but it got better.

Thanks for the link to the crawler folks sway bar setup. It is amazingly similar to what I was intending to build, but they have solved the major problem I was having in building a one-off. I could not figure an affordable way to attach the arms to bar, that would be tight enough to handle the big, two way loads. It looks like they use a compressed spline setup, which would work well, and if you are making a bunch of them like they do, is a good way to go. I will be seriously looking and measuring this winter to see if something from them could be squeezed into our setup with the airbags in place.

[Photog]

Booster,
That is very encouraging information.

When I get done massaging this lift, I hope for it to work as well as yours, with just a bit more height. I am looking forward to a much better and more controlled ride.

I will have to go back through your "lift thread"; but I don't remember if you posted the specs for your Bilstein shocks. The CST shocks that came with this kit, are (again) designed for the 1 Ton Truck, and are a little too long for my application. Shocks like you front ones would probably work perfectly on my van, but the rear shocks need to be a couple inches longer, at full extension.

Edit: I found the thread, and a link to the E-Shocks website. Which part numbers did you get? It looks like they only sell for the Express 2500 with GVW over 7300 lbs.

[booster]

Brian,

The Eshock site seems to be down right now, but here is a link to the Bilstein site. If it doesn't take you right to the model numbers, just use their application guide for a 3500 Express.

http://www.bilsteinus.com/cart/ymm.php? ... 500&zenid=

I have also been out measuring sway bar clearance. With the airbags on it, I have limited space to go the front of the axle. It looks like the one you got goes more toward the center of the van, so it would clear the airbag brackets. I think yours hangs low in the back because of your lift. If you were lower, or the front links longer, it wouldn't be as bad. If I did that bar, I would probably make clamp on brackets to the housing, that could be a bit shorter, giving a higher mount by a little.

I can't quite read the part numbers on the bar. Do you think you would be able to come up with the manufacturer and part numbers that they used?

[Photog]

Thanks for the link Booster.

I will look at the part number and manufacturer of the sway bar, when I get home today.

The sway bar is mounted so it is at close to the same level as the low point of the differential housing. Then the end-links are set up to be as close to level as the possible, with a standard Moog end-link.

The reason the sway bar is set this low, is to prevent it from crashing into the generator exhaust, when the axle travels up. For this reason, I am going to see if I can have the exhaust re-routed, when I get the muffler (resonator) installed. Then I think I can raise the sway bar a couple inches and use shorter end-links.

To use the Anti-Rock sway bar, you may be able to mount the torsion bar across the top of the frame, behind the generator (in front of LPG tank), and have the arms come forward from there. Things are very tight back there, it still may not fit.

[Photog]

The sway bar has a partial part number on it ------5A772-AE, and it is a factory Ford part.

[Mike]

Since I don't have the expertise to ever attempt doing (let alone the engineering degree to understand it?)
most of what you've both done and discussed, where would the average person begin, and inquire about
increasing the clearance on my C190P, and what would you gestimate the final cost in US$ would be, all in?
A 4X4 truck conversion place? A shop that specializes in shocks and springs? A Chevy dealer?
It sounds pretty interesting, but a bit complex.

Thanks.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Mike

Since I don't have the expertise to ever attempt doing (let alone the engineering degree to understand it?)
most of what you've both done and discussed, where would the average person begin, and inquire about
increasing the clearance on my C190P, and what would you gestimate the final cost in US$ would be, all in?
A 4X4 truck conversion place? A shop that specializes in shocks and springs? A Chevy dealer?
It sounds pretty interesting, but a bit complex.

Thanks.

If you go with the 2" lift like I did, with the same parts, but hired all the work done, I would guess you would be in the $1300-1500 range (see my first post in this thread for a link to another site with details). If you eliminate the compressor and gauges for the airbags and use manual fill, you can save probably $400.

A good spring/suspension shop would be able to do the entire thing for you and take about 4 hours.

[Mike]

Thanks Booster. I have been toying with the idea of adding something to improve the
handling and steering in cross wind situations. I've traveled on I-80 Spring and Fall, and
I-40 just last Spring,it gets pretty windy out there (note the many wind power farms in
the I-80 area) and I've been pushed around a fair bit. I was thinking if I'm going to try to firm
up the ride, I might go for a lift too. I've pulled off the road in some places, and I've managed
to scuff the bottom of the external storage compartments. I was going to start with some sort
of rear sway bar, but am now aware of the issue of clearance around or under the Onan and it's
exhaust pipe. I've had some people suggest shocks (Bilsteins or Konis) as a possible fix for the
steering/sway issue. How effective are the additions you've made in helping reduce body roll
in the wind?

[Photog]

Mike,
The simple lift in the front is the spring spacer. This lifts the front 2", and gets the suspension off of the bump stops. You will need to get the front end aligned, right after the lift is installed.

Most places seem to have a urethane spacer. This is junk, as the 4000+ pounds on the front suspension will crush this plastic spacer.

SuspensionMAXX has an aluminum spacer kit for the front, for $90. It is not shown on their website, so you will need to e-mail or call them.
http://www.suspensionmaxx.com/

The rear can be done with the air bags like Booster did, or a 2" lift block with new U-bolts, or the addition of a leaf-spring mini-pack and new U-bolts. The 2" block will get the lift and be the least expensive, but it will retain the rough ride. The air bags or the leaf-spring mini-pack are the way to go. Deaver makes a mini-pack for a 1-Ton Chevy truck.
http://www.deaverspring.com/

[booster]

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks Booster. I have been toying with the idea of adding something to improve the
handling and steering in cross wind situations. I've traveled on I-80 Spring and Fall, and
I-40 just last Spring,it gets pretty windy out there (note the many wind power farms in
the I-80 area) and I've been pushed around a fair bit. I was thinking if I'm going to try to firm
up the ride, I might go for a lift too. I've pulled off the road in some places, and I've managed
to scuff the bottom of the external storage compartments. I was going to start with some sort
of rear sway bar, but am now aware of the issue of clearance around or under the Onan and it's
exhaust pipe. I've had some people suggest shocks (Bilsteins or Konis) as a possible fix for the
steering/sway issue. How effective are the additions you've made in helping reduce body roll
in the wind?

I did find that after the lift, it handled better. This was a bit surprising as the extra height would generally make it worse. I think it had mainly with getting the front suspension back to the correct height, and thus proper geometry. The Bilstein shocks also helped both the ride and handling. The improvements seem to come from the van reacting to the steering faster and more predictably (less understeer), not necessarily because the wind pushes it around less. Since it takes less steering wheel motion to make a correction, it gets done faster, so you aren't moved around as much. This was a bit unexpected as the higher rate front springs would usually cause more understeer, but getting it off the bumps, which are even higher rate appears to change the results for the better. I do think that a rear swaybar is needed, and am now in the process of finding one that will fit, and is big enough to do some good. I had a very interesting talk yesterday with a guy at a place that makes race car sway bars. They are straight bars, with splined ends, and you can get them in any length and diameter that you want (so any rate). They also furnish splined/clamped arms to go on them in any length, and if you want them, they can be of weldable/bendable steel so you can get them to the right place to tie them to the frame with standard style links. I looked today, and I think I have enough room for a bar of this style, although I may have to do some alterations on the airbag brackets, or switch them to Air Lift bags, that sit on top of the axle. I do think that getting a big bar in will help the wind push factor, although it isn't all that bad now.

Personally, I don't particularly care for the spring spacers, especially in this style suspension. On the Chevy vans, the bump stops are actually built to be part of the springing of the front end. They are a beehive urethane style that is hollow up the middle, and are designed to be like the overload leaf in the rear. When the spring is compressed to a certain point, the bumpstop helps support some of the weight without being a hard stop (like standard bump stops), just a high rate helper. If you space off of the bumps, with the standard springs, they will have to handle all the load, which they are not designed for. The higher rate springs that I got are designed to carry the weight by themselves, at the increased height.

[Mike]

Thanks to you both for the suggestions and opinions, before and after your mods.
I had also considered some sort of gas or air or oil filled lifts or bags, that would be user
adjustable (not necessarily on-the-fly, but I've seen one or 2 online that appeared to be)
to allow me to adjust the ride for the conditions and direction of travel. When we do I-80
for example, we do it for about 2 X 8 hour days of driving, from western Nebraska to the
bottom of Lake Michigan, so it would be a decided advantage to be able to firm up the
ride during the 2 days of potential perpendicular wind push. In the less open terrain, I'd
like to be able to soften the suspension a bit, for more comfort and a smoother ride.

I'll have to google the local area for some shops that carry the type of parts and do the
sort of mods you have done. There's a place that does race suspension in the nearest big
city to me that I've already asked about this stuff. I found the answers confusing.
However, in the interests of saving some coin, I always prefer to "shop American" wherever
possible. Thanks for the leads/links.

[Photog]

Originally Posted by booster

...............When the spring is compressed to a certain point, the bumpstop helps support some of the weight without being a hard stop (like standard bump stops), just a high rate helper. If you space off of the bumps, with the standard springs, they will have to handle all the load, which they are not designed for. The higher rate springs that I got are designed to carry the weight by themselves, at the increased height.

That is a very good point, since our Roadtreks are approaching their maximum front axle load. Mine is currently 4050 pounds across the front axle.

Side note: Moog, Rockwell and Raybestos sell a set of HD springs for our Chevy vans. I do not know how much lift (if any) they would provide; but they are designed to carry a higher load. I believe they have a progressive and a constant rate spring, for our rigs.

[Photog]

I was under my van today, re-torquing all the nuts & bolts I had apart, for the suspension install. Everything was tight.

While I was under there, I noticed that the new shocks were almost completely compressed at Roadtrek ride height. I don't think there was more than one inch of up-travel available. So, I removed them and re-installed the factory shocks. Now there is more up-travel, but it now looks like there is limited down-travel. There might be two inches available. If it isn't one thing it is another.

I wonder if the Bilstein shocks are a little longer than the stock shocks.

[booster]

I don't think the Bilsteins would give you a lot more. When I put ours in, I had a terrible time compressing them to get the lower bolt in because the gas pressure is so high (I wound up wiring them to get them in). I was at max on my air bags, which is about 2.5 inches above stock ride height, and IIRC I had to compress about 4 inches. This works out close to what you have, it appears. You may want to try to find a set of shock extenders. They aren't my favorite thing, but aren't all that bad if you can find good ones that fit.

I also have been underneath the van, but measuring, remeasuring, and measuring again, to try to squeeze in a decent sized rear sway bar. I do think that I can get a good bar in there, but it will be tight.

I currently have a "NASCAR" style bar on order. They are similar to the rock crawler bars in your link, but much more substantial. The rock crawler guys want a lot of individual wheel travel so they use small bars. The good thing about the bar I have on order is that you can get a wide variety of lengths, and diameters, to get the rate you want. The arms are separate, and are bendable, machinable, and weldable, so you can get them to any configuration you need to make the end link mounts work. I chose, as a starting point, a 38.5" long, 1.375 diameter, bar with 1.25/48 splined ends. The arms will be 17" straight bars, with no drillings. I decided on these parts to come close to the dimensions of the Hellwig bar, which by all accounts, works well, but won't fit. The Hellwig is a bit longer and the arms are 19.5, so I will be at a bit higher rate. If I decide I need to go softer, I can just lengthen the arms, as there is lots of room there. The mounting will use the standard rear pads on the housing, with homemade adapter plates, and I will use aftermarket versions of the same mounting bushings and end links that are used in the front. The parts should be here in about a month, as it is a made to order piece. As a point of reference, I looked up specs on the Ford bar used on yours, and if correct, it is a 1.18 diameter bar, and guessing from the pics, it looks to have similar to the 19.5" arms.

The one big compromise I have to make to put in the sway bar, is to change out my airbags. The Firestone bags I have mount in front of the axle, and a little to the inboard side of the spring, which is where the bar needs to go through. Airlift bags mount on top of the axle, and look like they will be out of the way. I hope to get them in place within a week or two. It is too bad, as I had chosen the Firestone bags, because they have a lower capacity (3000 instead of 5000) and are taller (more volume), so they should ride a bit smoother (not as progressive). 3000 is plenty of capacity as there is only 5000 on the axle. In the one case I heard of, a guy also had to cut a window in the frame to mount the Airlift bags, but now I see that he probably just had the wrong kit (there are two frame styles), so that should not be an issue.

When this is all done, if it works out OK, I will have a set of Firestone airbags available, cheaply. 1000 miles on them, if anyone is interested.

[Photog]

Booster,
Your sway bar is very interesting. Hollow or solid? Where will the torsion bar be mounted? Your description sounds like it will be mounted to the axle housing.

Post a link over to your thread, when you get sway bar pics and info posted up.

I will look into extending the front shocks. I have seen the extenders for sale.

I may also have enough room on the existing stem, to get what I need.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

Booster,
Your sway bar is very interesting. Hollow or solid? Where will the torsion bar be mounted? Your description sounds like it will be mounted to the axle housing.

Post a link over to your thread, when you get sway bar pics and info posted up.

I will look into extending the front shocks. I have seen the extenders for sale.

I may also have enough room on the existing stem, to get what I need.

It will be a solid bar, 1.375 dia., 38.5" long, turned down to 1.25 for 3" on each end with 1" of that 3" splined at 48 splines. It will mount to the axle, just above the bottom of the diffy housing, slightly behind the housing. It will be between the housing and exhaust on the Onan. It would be lower than the exhaust on yours (based on the pics) and about even with it on our lower lift. It looks like it will only need a slight mod to the Onan exhaust hanger clamp to fit with a little extra room. The good part is that it is a straight bar, so it won't move as it it loaded, and can mount with much less clearance to stuff without hitting while in use. It will mount to the two pads on the back of the axle, that have the two tapped holes in them, using Energy Suspension urethane swaybar mounts that are the same style as the ones used in the front of the van. I will have to make some pretty simple adapter plates to mount the swaybar mounts to the pads, as they look like they will have to sit a bit lower, a bit rearward, and bit outboard from the pads. The arms will go forward just outboard of the lower shock mount and attach to the frame with links like the Hellwig, and yours, do. The end links will be NAPA OEM style that are also used on the front.

[Photog]

I understand now. Great description.

Thanks

[booster]

Well, the swaybar finally showed up yesterday! Good looking bar with very clean machining on it. Arms are out of plate, so are a little rougher, but it doesn't matter on them, Arms are of C1018 type alloy, so are totally weldable and bendable without any strength compromises. I will be cutting them and rewelding to get the shape I need around the axle tubes, and adding ends to pick up the end links. They are nearly 3/4" thick, so I will need to pick up some 6011 welding rod for the stick welder (unused for many years), as that is too thick for my small wire feed.

Since the axle mounts for the bar are already done, I am hoping things go fairly quickly and fit well. Hopefully, we will see some progress this weekend!

Jim

[Photog]

Great news Jim. I'm looking forward to seeing your vision for the swaybar.

Have you had any opportunity to measure how much down-travel you have left, after the spring lift (front)?

I am getting close to solving the bump-steer issue on my rig. Then it will be time to add a few leaves to the rear spring pack, to get the suspension off the over-load springs (like you did with the air bags).

[booster]

I did take a quick look when I jacked it up, but it get tough because I jack on the lower control arms. I put one side on a stand and it wheel appeared to drop only 1.5 to 2.0 inches. I forgot to look to see if it was stopping on the shock or bump, however.