Looking for recommendations for suspension parts for Dodge B3500 Roadtrek 190V

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by booster

If you have accurate internal measuring tools it would be interesting to see what the truncated surface diameter is and how round and consistent the thread depth is.

I don't have an inside mic or anything like that, but I'll see if I can cobble something together with some wire to at least measure the depth of the threads.

Originally Posted by booster

Was the ball joint that came out carrying major thread damage also? Outside diameter measurements of the the old and new ball joint threads may be of interest.

The balljoint that I pressed out definitely has less thread than the new one. It still has enough to seat firmly in the hole, but it doesn't get as tight as the new one either. The old balljoint is a Dorman, and the new one is a Moog though.

Originally Posted by booster

If the materials are compatible, the welding is not bad at all, I think, but if not done right it could crack quickly.

I do have a MIG, but it's been so long that I used it I don't think that this is the job to practice on.

Originally Posted by booster

Preventing catastrophic failure, as in having the joint fall out of the knuckle probably could be prevented by putting some small roll pins through the extruded up part of the arm into the joint.

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure about the setup to get the holes straight. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, you're suggesting I drill a couple of small holes (maybe 1/8") almost parallel to the arm and through the flange that the balljoint screws into and into the body of the joint, then drive roll pins in? I'd have to make sure I didn't drill into the 'meat' of the joint. There is a lot of metal there, so maybe 1/2" deep would be safe.

I don't know if the flange protrudes enough to clear the edge of the arm. I'd want to do this in the drill press to make sure it was straight and I don't know if I could clamp it on the required angle. I'll take a look when I'm in the garage again. I think if I do re-use the Dorman arms I'll probably go the Loctite route.

I'm still trying to pull the other arm off. It did not yield its balljoint easily. I can turn the nut, but the ball is spinning so it's not threading off. Because it's the upper joint it's hard to get pressure on it with the jack or a pry bar. I have to think about this for a bit.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

I don't have an inside mic or anything like that, but I'll see if I can cobble something together with some wire to at least measure the depth of the threads.



The balljoint that I pressed out definitely has less thread than the new one. It still has enough to seat firmly in the hole, but it doesn't get as tight as the new one either. The old balljoint is a Dorman, and the new one is a Moog though.



I do have a MIG, but it's been so long that I used it I don't think that this is the job to practice on.



That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure about the setup to get the holes straight. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, you're suggesting I drill a couple of small holes (maybe 1/8") almost parallel to the arm and through the flange that the balljoint screws into and into the body of the joint, then drive roll pins in? I'd have to make sure I didn't drill into the 'meat' of the joint. There is a lot of metal there, so maybe 1/2" deep would be safe.

I don't know if the flange protrudes enough to clear the edge of the arm. I'd want to do this in the drill press to make sure it was straight and I don't know if I could clamp it on the required angle. I'll take a look when I'm in the garage again. I think if I do re-use the Dorman arms I'll probably go the Loctite route.

I'm still trying to pull the other arm off. It did not yield its balljoint easily. I can turn the nut, but the ball is spinning so it's not threading off. Because it's the upper joint it's hard to get pressure on it with the jack or a pry bar. I have to think about this for a bit.

On the screws, it is an odd thing I mentioned because the screws don't hold anything at all in place. The would go just above the extruded up area of the arm where the balljoint hopefully extends a ways up. The screw or pin would just hit the ball joint with the head tight to it's surface. The only function of the screws would be if the joint came loose, the screws would keep the joint from being able to drop out of the are because the heads would hit the arm and hold it up. They wouldn't need to be very straight so hand drilling would be OK.


The welding would probably need to be matched to the material so the alloy of the weld material would likely not be standard wire for the mig welder. Generally this kind of stuff would be done with a stick welder where changing to special alloys is easy.

[The Eyesore]

So I just swapped out the ball joint on the other control arm and thought I would upload some better pictures of the threads. The first two pictures are the internal threads on the Taiwanese control arm.
The next picture are the threads on the Taiwanese ball joint and then the final picture is the picture of the threads on the USA made ball joint.

I don’t have an internal micrometer to measure the root of the internal threads on the control arm, but using vernier calipers, I did some rough measurements of the threads, both root and crest on each of the ball joints, and then I was able to measure the diameter of the internal threads with the verniers.
I did not write down the dimensions because I wasn’t really doing high precision measurements.

However, what I observed, doing the measurements right there on the fly is that the USA-made ball joint has threads that are both deeper and taller than the Taiwanese counterpart. It’s because the Taiwanese counterpart has such a shallow thread root (the valley, so to speak) which makes it feel tight. However, the USA ball joint has a major diameter that’s 0.010” larger than the Taiwanese ball joint. So, even though I can thread the USA joint in entirely by hand with little resistance, there should actually be more thread engagement than there is with the Taiwanese ball joint, which due to high resistance, gives the (false) perception that it’s a better fit. By my rough calculations, the overlap of the internal versus external threads is 0.010” which I have no idea if that’s a good bite or not, but the Taiwanese one should only have about 0.005” overlap, if my measurements are correct. So, I think I feel safe to run these ball joints in these control arms. Still, I’m probably gonna sleep on it for a while before installing.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

However, what I observed, doing the measurements right there on the fly is that the USA-made ball joint has threads that are both deeper and taller than the Taiwanese counterpart. It’s because the Taiwanese counterpart has such a shallow thread root (the valley, so to speak) which makes it feel tight. However, the USA ball joint has a major diameter that’s 0.010” larger than the Taiwanese ball joint. So, even though I can thread the USA joint in entirely by hand with little resistance, there should actually be more thread engagement than there is with the Taiwanese ball joint, which due to high resistance, gives the (false) perception that it’s a better fit. By my rough calculations, the overlap of the internal versus external threads is 0.010” which I have no idea if that’s a good bite or not, but the Taiwanese one should only have about 0.005” overlap, if my measurements are correct. So, I think I feel safe to run these ball joints in these control arms. Still, I’m probably gonna sleep on it for a while before installing.

It's interesting that the threads on the ball joint you screwed out look almost like the threads on the one that I pressed out. And likewise for the threads in the arms. So maybe my arm isn't as messed up as I thought. I still have to do some measuring on mine.

I got the passenger side control arm out tonight, but I had to saw through the ball joint because it kept spinning. I still haven't managed to unscrew the balljoint from the arm but I'm going to keep trying for a few days before I resort to the press again.

If I do re-use these arms I'll probably use some locktite to hold the joints in.

[The Eyesore]

How long is your breaker bar? Do you have a vise that’s secured to a stable bench? I used a 3’ cheater on a 3/4” drive breaker bar, for a total of about 4’ of leverage, and lemme tell ya, i had to lean into it with all my body weight to get it spinning. I think with 3’ of leverage, I could still do it, but not with less than 3’.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

How long is your breaker bar? Do you have a vise that’s secured to a stable bench? I used a 3’ cheater on a 3/4” drive breaker bar, for a total of about 4’ of leverage, and lemme tell ya, i had to lean into it with all my body weight to get it spinning. I think with 3’ of leverage, I could still do it, but not with less than 3’.

My breaker bars are all 1/2" drive and most are about 24" long. I've been using a 3' cheater, so about 3.5' overall. I'm seeing tons of flex in the bar, so I think most of the energy is going there. I've been thinking of getting a stout 3/4" drive bar that doesn't have a swivel (like the one you showed in a picture above) to see if that helps it to break free.

My vice is pretty sturdy, but I've been having trouble clamping the arms. I think if I loosen the bushings so I can rotate the bar 90°*it will work better.

[MythicLionMan]

It turns out that my vice isn't as secure as I thought. The vice held up fine. I've been looking for an excuse to clean the bench for a while now. I guess I'll have to dig through everything just to bolt it back together.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

It turns out that my vice isn't as secure as I thought. The vice held up fine. I've been looking for an excuse to clean the bench for a while now. I guess I'll have to dig through everything just to bolt it back together.

You aren't the only one that has ever had that kind of issue. It happens all the time, I think, until we really tie the bench together and tie it down tight.


My bench is 14'X3' with a 2X10 board top on top of a 2X6 frame sitting on legs in the shape of angle iron but out of 2X6 boards. All glued and screwed together and with a 16ga sheet metal top with flanged rear splash and a turned down front lip.



I have it lagged screwed to the wall studs, not bolted to floor. The vise is in a corner like yours through the top bolted.



It used to move the whole bench before I lagged it to the wall and it must weigh close to 400#. Once I got it lagged in it didn't budge at all but all the bolts ripped out of the top at the the vise. I added a chunk of 3/8" thick steel plate under the vise on the top and put smaller pieces of the same underneath, because I had to miss the framing, at the vise bolts.


It now finally holds well and survived having a GM 10 bolt rear axle clamped in the vise while I used an 6' pipe to tighten the huge torque required pinion nut.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by booster

You aren't the only one that has ever had that kind of issue. It happens all the time, I think, until we really tie the bench together and tie it down tight.

I obviously need an upgrade. For now I'm just going to screw it back together and try to cobble something together with some steel bar and a couple of trees. I kind of doubt that this thing is going to move without using the press again.

I have the passenger side almost completely disassembled now, so I have to make some decisions on parts before I can proceed. I'm a bit worried about the passenger side steering knuckle.

[The Eyesore]

Dude, I’m sure that joint would unscrew. Like you said, there’s nearly no rust. Just get out your screw gun and a box of deck screws and start securing that workbench. lol
Also, get a 3/4” breaker bar that doesn’t flex. For sure your breaker bar flexing is robbing torsion.

Also, you’re never gonna fix that motorcycle. No one ever does. Get rid of it. lol. ;p

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

Dude, I’m sure that joint would unscrew. Like you said, there’s nearly no rust. Just get out your screw gun and a box of deck screws and start securing that workbench. lol
Also, get a 3/4” breaker bar that doesn’t flex. For sure your breaker bar flexing is robbing torsion.

I did get the 3/4" bar. That's how I ripped the bench apart

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

Also, you’re never gonna fix that motorcycle. No one ever does. Get rid of it. lol. ;p

That's my stool! I did fix it once about 15 years ago. Almost. I got it running again, fixed a broken stud, but it still had an intake leak. I really should get rid of it. It hasn't been on the road in almost 25 years.

[The Eyesore]

25 years, you’ve stored that? Now it’s got dried out seals, a varnished up carburetor, rotted tires, etc. (basket case). Imagine how your garage will feel with that space recovered. Time to roll it out to pasture, haha!

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

25 years, you’ve stored that? Now it’s got dried out seals, a varnished up carburetor, rotted tires, etc. (basket case). Imagine how your garage will feel with that space recovered. Time to roll it out to pasture, haha!

It's moved with me once.

When I tried to fix it 15 years ago I disassembled the cards and got them squeaky clean. It was very satisfying. I just can't remember if I drained them before it went back on mothballs or if I kept thinking "I'll get back to it next week" for 25 years.

But yeah, the seals must be in terrible shape and it's just a decoration now. I tried to give it away again last week to someone who wanted a project.

[MythicLionMan]

Having been disappointed by my vice I set up a more 'natural' setup. I bolted the arm to piece of steel and wedged it between two trees. I added the longest cheater that I could find to the breaker. It took a helper standing on the arm to prevent it from twisting up, and there was a bit of flex in the pipe, but I'm pretty confident that I was able to deliver a poop-ton of torque to the ball joint, and it still didn't move at all.

I decided to take another of Boosters suggestions and I tried to drill/chisel out the metal that holds in the ball. I'm thinking if I can get the ball out I can cut some slots in the shell to allow it to turn out without needing to resort to the press. I did get the 'plate' moving, but its not out yet. This is still a work in progress.

[MythicLionMan]

Forgot the photo of my 'tree vice'.

[The Eyesore]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

I'm a bit worried about the passenger side steering knuckle.

It doesn't specify which axle rating it's for, but there's a knuckle on eBay right now. Just FYI

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

It doesn't specify which axle rating it's for, but there's a knuckle on eBay right now. Just FYI

I also found one at a wrecker in Alberta. I have to make a judgement call on my current knuckle. It's the upper taper I'm worried about. The nut was rusted in place, but the stud was able to spin in the taper. I suspect that they omitted a washer that was needed to clear the threads when they installed it. The upper 3/4 of the taper feels good, but there is a slight bulge near the bottom that I can barely feel with my finger.

I'd hate to go through all the trouble of getting a new knuckle and ending up with one that is the same or worse condition. The trouble with not being able to see the part before I buy it.

[MythicLionMan]

I got the joint out of the arm, sort of accidentally. I drilled some holes in the back, and then spun the back using a chisel. The plan was to remove the ball and then cut the 'tube' so I could crush it out. I put it on the press to push out the ball, but I set it up wrong, so it ended up pushing the entire balljoint, not just the ball.

I only jumped 2 threads this time, and then I switched to the impact. It was able to back it out easily now. There was less damage to the thread on this one than on the drivers side. The drivers side has about three 'stripes' perpendicular to the threads, but the threads are intact on the passenger side.

I did a test and I was able to torque both of them to over 100 ft/lbs. I also made some measurements. The holes in both arms were as close to round as I could measure (which wasn't very accurate). I averaged several measurements in each case. I couldn't measure the minor diameter of the inside threads in the arms, and my measurement of the minor diameter on the balljoints is less than ideal.

• Drivers side Dorman balljoint. Minor diameter: 50.8mm Major diameter: 51.08mm. Thread depth: 0.14mm
• Drivers side Dorman arm. Minor diameter: 50.82
• Passenger side balljoint. Minor diameter: 50.87 Major diameter: 51.15 Thread depth: 0.14mm
• Passenger side Dorman arm. Minor diameter: 50.8
• New Moog balljoint. Minor diameter: 50.75mm Major diameter: 51.24mm Thread depth: 0.245mm

That makes it look like the press flattened the threads on the balljoints, but didn't affect the arms as much (or the Dorman balljoints always had shallow threads). The 'stripes' on the drivers side threads have obviously weakened it a bit, but 95% of the circumference of the threads are still intact and they seem to hold well. I think I'll try loctiting them into the Dorman arms and call it done.

[The Eyesore]

When you torque the new ball joints in, make sure the work is held firm, not on a flexing pole or anything because the torque will be absorbed by the flex and not fully tighten the screw.

[booster]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

When you torque the new ball joints in, make sure the work is held firm, not on a flexing pole or anything because the torque will be absorbed by the flex and not fully tighten the screw.

I don't think I follow the logic of this.

Torque can't disappear or be absorbed because it is a force (lb ft). Force when moved over distance can be used or stored as work (lb ft per second). As long as the bar is not moving the torque is all transmitted to the nut.

You do work as the bar bends, storing the work in the bent bar to be released later when you let the bar unbend. When the bar is not moving, no work is done and the force, torque in this case, is applied to the whole bar and it is static and based on the distance from the pivot.

The only way torque at the nut would be lower is if the bar bent enough to shorten the distance between you and the nut or as it bent you wound up pulling/pushing at a different angle than tangent to the rotation.