Looking for recommendations for suspension parts for Dodge B3500 Roadtrek 190V

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

It seems to be a no-brainer. I would gladly eat the cost of the replacement ball joints just to be able to do them now, while everything is still new and rust free. Otherwise, how long do you think the cheap Chinese ball joints are gonna last you?

Seriously, it’s an absolute no-brainer, don’t you think?

When you put it that way it is. I'd obviously like to have good ball joints in good arms (or even in mediocre arms). I'm not so much conflicted about what I want, but what I think I can achieve. I'm a bit worried about my ability to pull the crappy ball joints out of the mediocre arms. There isn't much rust at all on my upper arms and I couldn't budge them. I guess if I try to remove them and fail I can just keep the joints in the arms and move on. And if I succeed I can install the better joints that I already have.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

When you put it that way it is. I'd obviously like to have good ball joints in good arms (or even in mediocre arms). I'm not so much conflicted about what I want, but what I think I can achieve. I'm a bit worried about my ability to pull the crappy ball joints out of the mediocre arms. There isn't much rust at all on my upper arms and I couldn't budge them. I guess if I try to remove them and fail I can just keep the joints in the arms and move on. And if I succeed I can install the better joints that I already have.

A truck repair place may pop them out for you with a big impact wrench for a reasonable cost. Impact really makes a difference on stuff like this.



I have a 1/2" impact that is rated at 1200ft lbs in reverse (loosening) direction and it is a toy compared to the big 3/4" ones.


If you are worried about breaking a socket or bar pin, you might want to try using a big pipe wrench. I have used an 8' long pipe on my 24" Ridgid brand aluminum pipe wrench without issue.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by booster

A truck repair place may pop them out for you with a big impact wrench for a reasonable cost. Impact really makes a difference on stuff like this.



I have a 1/2" impact that is rated at 1200ft lbs in reverse (loosening) direction and it is a toy compared to the big 3/4" ones.

I think I got overly excited because I have a 'reasonable' 1/2" impact now. It's breezed through stuff that I used to struggle with. But this thing just doesn't move.

Originally Posted by booster

If you are worried about breaking a socket or bar pin, you might want to try using a big pipe wrench. I have used an 8' long pipe on my 24" Ridgid brand aluminum pipe wrench without issue.

I actually did use a small pipe wrench when I was getting the shock out. It kept spinning, and even multiple pairs of vice grips wouldn't stop it. I put this tiny pipe wrench I have on it and it held.

Unfortunately, I think my biggest pipe wrench is only about 12" - 18" long.

[MythicLionMan]

I finally got most of the drivers side bolted back together. After I did the trial fit I re-assembled everything again with the boot on the lower ball joint which made much more sense. Despite the incredibly slow pace I've found most of this job has been pretty straight forward (other than the odd stuck nut).

One challenge today is that I couldn't torque the lower ball joint bolt. The manual calls for 175 ft-lbs for the 3/4-16, which is somewhat frightening. I couldn't get near the torque value because the knuckle keeps moving since I don't have the upper joint on. Hopefully once I receive and install the new upper control arm that will be resolved.

The strut was a bit tricky to install because the new bushings are so much thicker than the old ones. I had to use the old nut and an old bushing to pull the control arm back to the correct location before I could get enough threads to bite. After that it was mostly easy, except I couldn't put the torque wrench on it because I don't have enough room under the van. It's a pretty low torque, so hopefully I've got it good enough.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

I ordered K7118 (arriving tomorrow, along with the ball-joint tool). I hope those are the right ones.

TheEyesore What do the bushings in your RK620369 look like compared to the K7118? I'm wondering if I should replace the control arm bushings as well as the ball joints. I wish I could just order a 'blank' control arm with no bushings or joints.

[The Eyesore]

Just got back from a weekend trip in the van (A.K.A. The Eyesore), and I’m exhausted. New bushings came in over the weekend and I’m happy that they sent me the beefier ones. I’ll check the new control arms tomorrow to see what the pre-installed bushings look like. I’ll snap pics to post in this thread, naturally.

[The Eyesore]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

TheEyesore What do the bushings in your RK620369 look like compared to the K7118? I'm wondering if I should replace the control arm bushings as well as the ball joints..

Wasn’t it Yosemite Sam who used to say: “If you want something done right, you’ve gotta do it yourself!”?

Well, regarding the preinstalled bushings, it turns out the bushings that are preinstalled are yet another version of bushing. I would say they look like pretty good bushings, but not as quite as good as the robust ones made in Mexico. Although I definitely think they look good enough, qualitywise, that I’d feel comfortable using them.

However…. (and it’s a big however), all four bushings are consistently installed crooked and not seated to the hole they’re “installed” into. See pics.

Unbelievable! (yet totally believable). *sigh*

I plan to buy a 20-ton press today to do these bushings myself.

More and more, these kinds of discoveries make me uneasy trusting anyone working on my ****. I want to do all the mechanical work myself. I wish there was a shop locally where I could rent a space to work on my van. I have done some struts, brakes and even transmission work on the street, quickly and stealthily, in the middle of the night without any flack from the neighbors, but I think that jacking up my big-ass eyesore of a giant white van to do an entire front end replacement on the street might have the neighborhood committee talking about me bringing down property values. 😆

Anyone here, local to Los Angeles, have a driveway I could use for a day or two?

Pics attached.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

Just got back from a weekend trip in the van (A.K.A. The Eyesore), and I’m exhausted.

Sometimes I forget that these vans are supposed to leave the driveway. Glad you got out and had some fun. It's not really living up to its name on the inside .

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

Although I definitely think they look good enough, qualitywise, that I’d feel comfortable using them.

However…. (and it’s a big however), all four bushings are consistently installed crooked and not seated to the hole they’re “installed” into. See pics.

Unbelievable! (yet totally believable). *sigh*

The rubber on those doesn't seem as good. But it's hard to tell just by looking at it.

After I pressed the new bushing into my lower arm I thought that I hadn't pushed it all the way. I was about to put it back on the press when I noticed that the flange was flush on one side but had a gap on the other. It's square to the hole, but the face of the arm is curved so the bushing doesn't fit flush on both sides.

Yours do look genuinely crooked. The photo makes it look like the hole in the arm is deformed, but that could be an illusion.

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

I plan to buy a 20-ton press today to do these bushings myself.

I got a 12 ton because it was on sale, and I've always wanted one. I do regret not getting a 20, but this takes up enough space as it is. I don't just consider the cost of getting new toys, but how hard it will be to get rid of them when I'm done.

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

I have done some struts, brakes and even transmission work on the street, quickly and stealthily, in the middle of the night without any flack from the neighbors, but I think that jacking up my big-ass eyesore of a giant white van to do an entire front end replacement on the street might have the neighborhood committee talking about me bringing down property values. 😆

I used to do my work on the road because I didn't have a driveway, but it was the kind of neighbourhood where I could get away with it. Now I have a fairly private driveway where I can make my mess. But no hope of getting the van in the garage.

[booster]

You can get a tool to press in the arm inner bushings and those are designed to get the straight. I got one from, IIRC, Autozone as free loaner last time I did some.


The important part is the the holes are on the same centerline or as close to it as possible. You should be able to slide rod that is a pretty close fit through them without dragging is they are in line. The flanges, especially on sheet metal arms are often crooked looking. A manufacturer should be tooled up to get them straight, so check the hole alignment before moving, I think. The shaft should be in them and spin pretty freely depending on how tight the holes are on diameter over the shafts. They squish in once the washers and nut are tight to tighten on the shaft.


The shaft should not spin on the shaft once in the vehicle and tight, but you should only tighten them with the arms at normal ride height so the rubber is in the center of it's flex range as it gets flexed constantly because it is not turning on the shaft.

[The Eyesore]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

Sometimes I forget that these vans are supposed to leave the driveway. Glad you got out and had some fun. It's not really living up to its name on the inside

Thanks! It’s the outside that looks like a beluga whale, but after a year of renovating, the inside is surprisingly starting to look kinda nice.

[MythicLionMan]

I found two interesting bits of information today. This post is about a threaded balljoint on a different vehicle, but he claims that the control arm isn't threaded initially and the ball joint is sort of 'self tapping'. There's some questionable advice in the post and thread (including welding the balljoint into the arm or using a shim to tighten a loose joint). But if it does work that way it may be possible to screw my joint into my old arm (it does seem sketchy) as long as it takes 125 ft/lbs of torque to hold it in there. It also makes it seem likely that screwing the joint out of a new arm might be another fiasco. The factory service manual definitely says that it can be screwed out and replaced.

The other interesting bit of info is the torque for the lower ball nut. The service manual says 135 ft/lb for an 11/16" 18 nut, and 175 ft/lb for a 3/4" 16 nut. The Moog is a 3/4" 16 so I was trying to hit 175 and couldn't get there with everything flopping around. But then I found the manual for the Moog balljoint and it says 100 - 120 ft/lbs, which I did get to. I'm not sure what I should shoot for once I get the upper in.

[The Eyesore]

So, I have the update you’ve been waiting for…

I removed a ball joint from the RK arm without any problem. I mean, it was certainly tight, but came out smoothly with all threads in tact.

HOWEVER… (there’s always a “however”)
The new, American made ball joint, threaded in by hand all the way until it seated. I dunno how comfortable I am with that. I did torque it to 125 ft lbs, and nothing slipped or stripped, but seriously, I threaded this thing in with three fingers. I dunno. I might rather reuse my OG control arms. I’ve gotta think about this.

[booster]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

So, I have the update you’ve been waiting for…

I removed a ball joint from the RK arm without any problem. I mean, it was certainly tight, but came out smoothly with all threads in tact.

HOWEVER… (there’s always a “however”)
The new, American made ball joint, threaded in by hand all the way until it seated. I dunno how comfortable I am with that. I did torque it to 125 ft lbs, and nothing slipped or stripped, but seriously, I threaded this thing in with three fingers. I dunno. I might rather reuse my OG control arms. I’ve gotta think about this.

Red Loctite threadlocker is your friend.

[MythicLionMan]

I decided to do some experiments of my own. I threaded the old balljoint back into the Dorman arm (I didn't want to mess up the new joint). The threads are messy, and it was a bit tricky to get it started, but then it went all the way in with the socket. I didn't use a torque wrench, but I managed to get it so tight that it was hard to get back out.

The next step was to clean the threads as best as I could. You can see that some metal has sheared off the tips of the threads and there are some burs that should be cleaned up. Then I threaded the new joint in. I was able to finger tighten it about 3/4 of the way, and then it started to resist. So the thread pitch is the same, but I think the ballooned threads get worse at that point and make it tighter. I probably could torque it to 125, and a little loctite might seal the deal.

I'm not willing to commit to this until I take the other control arm off and see how easily it parts with its balljoint (which is the only joint on the van that doesn't need replacing since it's relatively new and has an intact boot. It's just a piece of crap).

It also looks like the dealer didn't settle the van onto the wheels before tightening the bushings when they installed these arms 12 years ago. Their 'at rest' position is pointing almost straight down.

[The Eyesore]

Originally Posted by booster

Red Loctite threadlocker is your friend.

I had thought of that too and almost did so as I don't anticipate ever unscrewing these, but the thing is (there's always a thing, haha) that I'm not worried about it unthreading. I'm worried about the thread fit and how much contact area there is between the internal and external thread faces. My concern is about the balljoint pulling the threads out while driving.

There is a specific reason for my worry. If you watch this video, you can see his balljoint threads in by hand.
Well, in the comments of the video, the guy who made the video followed up with this comment: "Its a tough job. One of mine was actually stripped out and I didn't realize, it popped back out when I was driving but it still held the control arms together.Thanks for watching, don't forget to subscribe!"

I'm sure the one that popped out was the one that "went in a lot easier than the other one" LOL

I dunno. I want to just be done with this, but my kiddo will start driving this beast without me soon, so I'd like to avoid a scenario like a ball joint suddenly leaving the control arm, lol.

[The Eyesore]

Originally Posted by MythicLionMan

It also looks like the dealer didn't settle the van onto the wheels before tightening the bushings when they installed these arms 12 years ago. Their 'at rest' position is pointing almost straight down.

I'm tellin ya... If you want something done right... You gotta do it yerself!

[booster]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

I had thought of that too and almost did so as I don't anticipate ever unscrewing these, but the thing is (there's always a thing, haha) that I'm not worried about it unthreading. I'm worried about the thread fit and how much contact area there is between the internal and external thread faces. My concern is about the balljoint pulling the threads out while driving.

There is a specific reason for my worry. If you watch this video, you can see his balljoint threads in by hand.
Well, in the comments of the video, the guy who made the video followed up with this comment: "Its a tough job. One of mine was actually stripped out and I didn't realize, it popped back out when I was driving but it still held the control arms together.Thanks for watching, don't forget to subscribe!"

I'm sure the one that popped out was the one that "went in a lot easier than the other one" LOL

I dunno. I want to just be done with this, but my kiddo will start driving this beast without me soon, so I'd like to avoid a scenario like a ball joint suddenly leaving the control arm, lol.

The look of those threads could back up the theory of the guy you mentioned that said they were not pre cut in the arms. The fully, and pretty evenly truncated threads is how those holes normally look after removal. If you have accurate internal measuring tools it would be interesting to see what the truncated surface diameter is and how round and consistent the thread depth is.


Was the ball joint that came out carrying major thread damage also? Outside diameter measurements of the the old and new ball joint threads may be of interest. The difference of the diameters between the ID of the arm hole and outside diameter of the joint will give you a better feel for the actual total shear strength against tear out. Of course, the factory and replacement ones could be different designs also with the factory self tapping and aftermarket counting on going into the already threaded oddly holes.



Since that is a good sized thread it likely would take a lot of force to do a self threading installation of the ball joint. Even when you get to 3/8" diameter bolts they can be very hard to put in by hand and very hole size, and thus shear strength. The factory would have the big power installing machines needed, the rest of us won't.


The Loctite would still help the joint a lot because it holds the thread faces tightly (if the clearances are correct). Ball joints are not severely loaded in the pull out direction because the mount to the underside of the arms so are pushed tighter together as long as the wheel is on the ground or the arm held up by the jounce bumper or shock. If a balljoint popped out as was stated it either was rocking itself out or unscrewed, I think, as the only pull on it should be the wheel and knuckle weight. Side forces are much larger, I would think. The upper arms are only along for the ride and carry almost no weight at all because the spring is between the lower arm and the frame. The bolt in joints that I put in my 5000# Buick Roadmaster that has a GVWR of somewhere above 6000# are held in by four small bolts and nuts, maybe 1/4" IIRC so no big load on them would be indicated to me.



Welding in the joint to prevent the rocking of it might work OK, actually. Thea arms are probably hot rolled steel sheet and not particularly hard because of the need to form them. If the joints are a forged steel they could be compatible with the right alloy welding rod. Cast iron joints make it harder but still possible, I think. Getting the old arms clean enough for good welding would take some work.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by booster

Red Loctite threadlocker is your friend.

Might JB-Weld be better? That would make the threads more "solid" than Loctite I would think.

Then perhaps a few spot welds.

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

Might JB-Weld be better? That would make the threads more "solid" than Loctite I would think.

Then perhaps a few spot welds.

JB is good stuff but I wonder about it any place where flexing or any movement happens as it is brittle. Loctite is good, but has it's own requirements to work also. It is only very strong within a narrow range of gap, .001" to .003" usually which is great on threads because they are that tight. Also works on slightly loose bushing ODs. Bigger gaps and it gets weaker very quickly.


If the materials are compatible, the welding is not bad at all, I think, but if not done right it could crack quickly.



Preventing catastrophic failure, as in having the joint fall out of the knuckle probably could be prevented by putting some small roll pins through the extruded up part of the arm into the joint.

[MythicLionMan]

Originally Posted by The Eyesore

I'm tellin ya... If you want something done right... You gotta do it yerself!

I'm not even sure if I do it right. At least when I do it myself I know where it's screwed up. Until I forget…