Chevy Suspension Upgrade Complete

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

That clip is behind the gap, so you can see the gap in the pic as it is from the rear of the assembly. The gap is about 1/2" or a bit less.

Booster, If you are reffering to hbn7hj's pic, I am asking him about the clearance between the inner part of the coil spring and the shock, not between the outer part of the spring and the knuckle.

Hope I did not confuse anybody.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Booster, If you are reffering to hbn7hj's pic, I am asking him about the clearance between the inner part of the coil spring and the shock, not between the outer part of the spring and the knuckle.

Hope I did not confuse anybody.

I think his does show clearance, the tight spot would be to the left of the hose, in pic which is rotated 90* that he posted.

[hbn7hj]

Yes. The clearance is a loose finger width and my finger is 1/2". The suspension is loaded in the picture. The vehicle is on the ground.

I'd remeasure the 37" but tough sitting in mud. It seems to be correct but I'll measure when I get it on concrete again.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

This pic you put on earlier looks like it shows one of the cams in the upper right of the pic at the end of the upper control arm. It appears to not have been moved. The cam is just to the left of the brake line bracket.

Here is ours from a similar angle but closer, you can see the big nut and the cam under it. The nut needs to be loosened and cams moved to adjust the alignment, and at least your one doesn't look to have been touched.



Of interest is if you look at this cam on ours. It is the right side front adjuster. If changed to move the a arm out more, caster and camber would increase. At the last alignment, they said the right side could not get more caster without losing camber, which this adjuster plainly shows was outright BS as there is still adjustment range left to move the arm out.

Could not take pics today, we are in a snow storm and the van is outside, will try tomorrow.
I tweaked a couple pix I had taken before the alignement and after since I had taken the van back home after the install. So the first pic is from the left(driver) side before and then the next is after. I am not sure but it does not look like anything was touched there. Will definitely look into this hopefully tomorrow.
When I finish shovelling that white stuff, I will take more pics specifically on that area. Thanks for the alignement course by the way.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Yes. The clearance is a loose finger width and my finger is 1/2". The suspension is loaded in the picture. The vehicle is on the ground.

I'd remeasure the 37" but tough sitting in mud. It seems to be correct but I'll measure when I get it on concrete again.

Sorry but getting confused here. Are you talking about knuckle/spring or shock/spring clearance here ?

I think I have enough(TBC) knuckle/spring room. The reason I was asking you for another pic was to determine/see spring/shock room.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Could not take pics today, we are in a snow storm and the van is outside, will try tomorrow.
I tweaked a couple pix I had taken before the alignement and after since I had taken the van back home after the install. So the first pic is from the left(driver) side before and then the next is after. I am not sure but it does not look like anything was touched there. Will definitely look into this hopefully tomorrow.
When I finish shovelling that white stuff, I will take more pics specifically on that area. Thanks for the alignement course by the way.

I would agree that it looks like it hasn't moved in a long time. When you evaluate remember the pin stays in the same place and the cam moves, so the amount of slot above and below the pin should change size.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Sorry but getting confused here. Are you talking about knuckle/spring or shock/spring clearance here ?

I think I have enough(TBC) knuckle/spring room. The reason I was asking you for another pic was to determine/see spring/shock room.

Shock spring clearance.

[lejeep]

Here is another funny thing about coil springs.

When you look at a 81004 let say from this website, specs mentions that both ends are tangential and the picture looks like one spring has both ends tangential and the other with one end tangential while the other end more squared like. Also looks like the same pic on rockauto.com

https://www.moog-suspension-parts.co...il_springs.asp

The original springs that were removed have tangential/squared ends and so are the whatever springs the installer has put in. I am pretty sure that is the right configuration that needs to go in there since there is a rubber cap that goes on top covering the squared end.

Can't wait to get a hold of somebody at Moog to see what they have to say...

Oh yea, the installer is already blaming me for choosing the 81004 when I told him about the length problem...

Any one ever took a pic of those 81004 that shows the ends ?
Any comments about those ends ?

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Here is another funny thing about coil springs.

When you look at a 81004 let say from this website, specs mentions that both ends are tangential and the picture looks like one spring has both ends tangential and the other with one end tangential while the other end more squared like. Also looks like the same pic on rockauto.com

https://www.moog-suspension-parts.co...il_springs.asp

The original springs that were removed have tangential/squared ends and so are the whatever springs the installer has put in. I am pretty sure that is the right configuration that needs to go in there since there is a rubber cap that goes on top covering the squared end.

Can't wait to get a hold of somebody at Moog to see what they have to say...

Oh yea, the installer is already blaming me for choosing the 81004 when I told him about the length problem...

Any one ever took a pic of those 81004 that shows the ends ?
Any comments about those ends ?

The pix they show aren't always the actual product, so hard to tell from them what is going on. I haven't seen a set of the 81004 in person, but almost all the double tangential and squared springs I have seen have the last coil turned about as far toward being circumferential as they can get and usually have some gap between the very end of the wire and the next coil, maybe 1/16-1/8". If you look at the pic on the Moog page, both ends are similar on both springs but the one spring is rotated more than the other. The last couple of inches of last coil are not really curved much into a full radius, so they are turned in a little and that is causing the appearance difference. This is not to say that the ends will be identical because the rarely are. Most springs, even if symmetrical, will have a paint mark on on end to mark the up end. I think that has to do with getting the same wind direction for better property matching side to side.


The installer will almost always blame the customer, it appears, so not surprising. Did they actually charge you for an alignment?


As mentioned, you will probably be able find a pic of the 81004 in the Photog thread.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

The contact number I gave you appear to be for a Moog dealer. I searched for the chart and I thought it was still on the Moog site and looked like, but is not. The chart isn't on the Moog site any more.

Here is the Moog site contact number

800.325.8886

Well well...
When I asked the person about end types on the 81004, he told me that he did not need to have somebody to physically look at the springs because his blue print shows that they are tangential on both ends.

Here are 2 pics that shows the bottom (where it sits on the lower arm) and the top ends respectively. On the pics, the top end is sitting on the table.

I have to admit that the top end looks like in between tangential and squared, while the other end (bottom) is clearly tangential.

Anyway, that does not solves the length problem.

Again any comments from past experiences ?

Any comments ?
Anyone ?

[booster]

Yep, bottom is what would be expected. Top no.


What stands out to me is the sheared end on the wire at the top. My understanding is that they are cut that way at the winder and then get other steps done to move coil end closer for tangential and closed plus they cut the end square and at the correct clock position compared to tail end on the opposite end of the spring. It looks like the one end didn't get those extra steps.

[booster]

Here is a post that seems to show the springs and a few other items as well.


http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...html#post55034

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

almost all the double tangential and squared springs I have seen have the last coil turned about as far toward being circumferential as they can get and usually have some gap between the very end of the wire and the next coil, maybe 1/16-1/8".
Most springs, even if symmetrical, will have a paint mark on on end to mark the up end. I think that has to do with getting the same wind direction for better property matching side to side.

The installer will almost always blame the customer, it appears, so not surprising. Did they actually charge you for an alignment?

As mentioned, you will probably be able find a pic of the 81004 in the Photog thread.

You are right on the spot about the ends.(look at my previous post pics)
I redailed the Moog guy but could not confirm what you described about the ends being bent/formed back towards being a flat circumference. What they installed looks like one end is like that while the other is completely tangential. Both ends look like they were painted when I took the pics.

But he told me that the rubber cap that goes on top has a groove to flatten the adjoining receptacle on the van.

Of course they charged me for an alignement.

Now I suppose I have to reread Photog's thread and try to contact those who did put 81004 in and took pics / measurements so I can muster the nerve to challenge the installer about the springs being too long.

I am also contemplating the idea of cutting whatever he put in at the right 17 3/4in from the 18 1/4in that is in there. If I would go that way, I would make sure to cut the tangential ends.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

You are right on the spot about the ends.(look at my previous post pics)
I redailed the Moog guy but could not confirm what you described about the ends being bent/formed back towards being a flat circumference. What they installed looks like one end is like that while the other is completely tangential. Both ends look like they were painted when I took the pics.

But he told me that the rubber cap that goes on top has a groove to flatten the adjoining receptacle on the van.

Of course they charged me for an alignement.

Now I suppose I have to reread Photog's thread and try to contact those who did put 81004 in and took pics / measurements so I can muster the nerve to challenge the installer about the springs being too long.

I am also contemplating the idea of cutting whatever he put in at the right 17 3/4in from the 18 1/4in that is in there. If I would go that way, I would make sure to cut the tangential ends.

I don't think I would get into modifying them, as that is very tough material, the end really needs to be bent in which should have been done hot, I think. You have to take them out anyway to mod them, so they should give you replacements if they are wrong.


Did you see the pix of the other thread with stock and and 81004 spring?

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think I would get into modifying them, as that is very tough material, the end really needs to be bent in which should have been done hot, I think. You have to take them out anyway to mod them, so they should give you replacements if they are wrong.

Did you see the pix of the other thread with stock and and 81004 spring?

Yea I know I should'nt cut, just getting frustrated here.

I did look at the thread and replied to GroupB for more info on his springs.

Thanks for all your help.
Will keep posting as the story unfolds.

[booster]

One thing to note, based on what I saw on our Chevy in messing with the springs. The upper spring cup is flat, and it does not have any allowance for the non ground end of the spring. The fact that the spring is not flat on the end is taken up in the upper rubber isolator, but very poorly. The OEM isolator in our van was a bonded rubber with a spring steel center between two layers of rubber and it was pretty well beat up in 20K miles. I got a new one from the dealer and it was solid rubber, which would never hold up to a 4300# axle weight so I reused the original. The important thing here is that there is no pocket for the tail of the spring.


The lower control arm does have a pocket for the tail of the spring and stock only uses a rubber sleeve on the coil wire for damping. The size of the pocket is pretty much done to match the tangential spring end shown in the pics. Once loaded, the end of the spring will hit the next coil in most cases.


If the spring with the non tangential end on it that lejeep got is put in with that non tangential end at the top, it will wipe out the rubber isolator very quickly and could cause the bowing he is seeing. If I had a choice, I wouldn't use that spring, but if I had to I would put the non tangential end down so the pocket would take up some of the extra height of the tail.


Hopefully, Moog will step up and get this straightened out, as something just isn't right with the springs, it appears.

[lejeep]

If you look at post 70, in the picture I'm almost certain the installer used the end sitting on the table as top since it looked flatter than the other end.
He used the original rubber isolator for the top end and they looked pretty decent. No tear and did not seem dried up, still pretty flexible.

Now regarding Moog, I called the number you gave me and talked with Ryan, twice actually. Basically he told me that both ends of the 81004 were tangential and have free length of 17 3/4in. When asked if someone could physically look at the ends, I was told that if his blue print said they were tangential, he didn't care what anyone else said.

So with that cold shoulder, I am a bit more aprehensive to call him back and ask him about fab procedures like you described earlier.

I will however try again tomorrow if I get the courage. I hope he is the guy to talk to about fabrication. Maybe I will be redirected me somewhere else...

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

If you look at post 70, in the picture I'm almost certain the installer used the end sitting on the table as top since it looked flatter than the other end.
He used the original rubber isolator for the top end and they looked pretty decent. No tear and did not seem dried up, still pretty flexible.

Now regarding Moog, I called the number you gave me and talked with Ryan, twice actually. Basically he told me that both ends of the 81004 were tangential and have free length of 17 3/4in. When asked if someone could physically look at the ends, I was told that if his blue print said they were tangential, he didn't care what anyone else said.

So with that cold shoulder, I am a bit more aprehensive to call him back and ask him about fab procedures like you described earlier.


I will however try again tomorrow if I get the courage. I hope he is the guy to talk to about fabrication. Maybe I will be redirected me somewhere else...

If Moog says they should be 17.75" tall and they are 18.25", then they are out of spec and returnable. I would get them out to make sure and if they are long, request an RMA from them or the vendor. If they own up and replace them, then you can make a point for some install compensation, but that is normally very tough to get. The problem, of course, for you will be getting them out and where will the van sit when waiting for resolution since you have to hire it done.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

If Moog says they should be 17.75" tall and they are 18.25", then they are out of spec and returnable. I would get them out to make sure and if they are long, request an RMA from them or the vendor. If they own up and replace them, then you can make a point for some install compensation, but that is normally very tough to get. The problem, of course, for you will be getting them out and where will the van sit when waiting for resolution since you have to hire it done.

I sent an email with a pic showing the free length to the installer. He is the one who ordered the springs. Will discuss the matter with the shop owner tomorrow.

Kind of tricky to order a new set to be ready and have the shop do the swap. Specially if i'm wrong about length.

So waiting for other members to come back to me about their description of Moog 81004 so I can build up a case.

[lejeep]

Meanwhile, I went out to take some pics of the cam adjustors. I'm pretty sure they are respectively in this order; Left Rear, L Front, RR and RF.

Have to say it does not look like these nuts have seen a socket / wrench in quite a while. Also I notice that the pins are not butting against the end of the cam grooves. Would that be normal if the shop said they could not do a better alignement ?