Chevy Suspension Upgrade Complete

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Booster,
Regarding air bags, I understand you seem to be the only one who has removed the overload leaf. What would be the pertinence of having the internal jounce type air bags if one does not remove the overload leaf ? It seems redundant to me.
Could I cause dammage to the air bags ?

We have actually run both ways, as they didn't have the ones with the internal bumper in them when got our original set.


They will ride and drive the same unless you have very low air pressure in the bags, a leak and gone flat, or a bag failure. At that point the overload leaf will not stop the travel of the axle soon enough for the airbag not to bottom out on it's internal hard stop on the non bump stop version. They tell you not to drive on them that way, so you are stuck. For many other vehicles other than the Chevies, you might be OK, but on the Chevies when you put in the bags you have to remove the factory axle bump stops that sit on top of the axle tubes, which allows the axle to move too far. With the bump stop bags you can drive on them with no air in the bags.


If you use Firestone airbags, you MIGHT not damage the bags if they are low on air as the factory bumps stops on the axle stay in place. It would all be a matter of where the hard stops are located in the Firestone bags, and I don't know the answer to that.


So I guess the answer is that we got two benefits from switching to the bump stop bags. One is that it allowed us to remove the overload leaf without risking damage to the van, springs, or airbag mounts if we lose airbag air, and the other is similar but means we could drive the van with a failed bag until we got the parts to fix it, which is really nice if you are on the road.



For anyone considering which to get, I think it gets to be a risk and trouble tolerance vs cost thing, so everyone will not choose the same way.

[lejeep]

OK guys, so I took the plunge and went with the Moog 81004 / Ail Lift 88205 combo yesterday. Was very impressed at first with lift.
Before the lift, measurements at wheel well from the ground
2003 chevy pop 190
LF + RF : 34 in (probably sitting on the bump stop or very close in park position)
LR + RR : 35 in (sitting on overload leaf all the time)
after the lift
LF + RF : 36 1/4 in (wow really !)
LR + RR : 36 1/4 in (or close at 35 psi)

Now the bad part;
Coil springs were ordered via the installer and I swear I saw on the box Moog 81004. Could not stay for the whole time to oversee the installation unfortunately. So I go and pick up the van the next day and the van is out of the garage.
Well the installer tells me that I have to replace a pitman arm, idler arm + 2 lower ball joints to be able to align the van correctly. Kind of strange since it was aligned 6K miles ago only.
Started sweating the next day when looking at my pix and realizing the new Moog were 18 1/4 in while originals were 17 3/8 in. Ok I think, the originals are shot thus the short length but something did not ring right with the Moog.

Looking again at the pix I notice there are 9 coils instead of the supposedly 8 I read on the different threads.
Also, I did not measure but I am certain the Moog have a thicker coil, over 1 in for sure. Anyway, bigger than the originals. So that looks normal.

Questions;
1- Am I measuring the free length correctly if you look at the pix ? Springs sit on a table on the closed end side and measurement is taken from the table to the topmost part of the open end.

2- I read from different threads and on Rockauto.com the free length for Moog 81004 should be 17 3/4 in (or very close to that). Can anyone confirm this dimention ?

3- Am I counting the right number of coils if again you look at the pix ?

Please tell me if it's my imagination, but I really don't like the look of that bend on the coils. I can just imagine that bend arking more when I hit a bump on the road. It looks already pretty close to the shock just sitting in park.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. It was already a challenge to go ahead with this project, it would be nice to see a happy ending to this story.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

OK guys, so I took the plunge and went with the Moog 81004 / Ail Lift 88205 combo yesterday. Was very impressed at first with lift.
Before the lift, measurements at wheel well from the ground
2003 chevy pop 190
LF + RF : 34 in (probably sitting on the bump stop or very close in park position)
LR + RR : 35 in (sitting on overload leaf all the time)
after the lift
LF + RF : 36 1/4 in (wow really !)
LR + RR : 36 1/4 in (or close at 35 psi)

Now the bad part;
Coil springs were ordered via the installer and I swear I saw on the box Moog 81004. Could not stay for the whole time to oversee the installation unfortunately. So I go and pick up the van the next day and the van is out of the garage.
Well the installer tells me that I have to replace a pitman arm, idler arm + 2 lower ball joints to be able to align the van correctly. Kind of strange since it was aligned 6K miles ago only.
Started sweating the next day when looking at my pix and realizing the new Moog were 18 1/4 in while originals were 17 3/8 in. Ok I think, the originals are shot thus the short length but something did not ring right with the Moog.

Looking again at the pix I notice there are 9 coils instead of the supposedly 8 I read on the different threads.
Also, I did not measure but I am certain the Moog have a thicker coil, over 1 in for sure. Anyway, bigger than the originals. So that looks normal.

Questions;
1- Am I measuring the free length correctly if you look at the pix ? Springs sit on a table on the closed end side and measurement is taken from the table to the topmost part of the open end.

2- I read from different threads and on Rockauto.com the free length for Moog 81004 should be 17 3/4 in (or very close to that). Can anyone confirm this dimention ?

3- Am I counting the right number of coils if again you look at the pix ?

Please tell me if it's my imagination, but I really don't like the look of that bend on the coils. I can just imagine that bend arking more when I hit a bump on the road. It looks already pretty close to the shock just sitting in park.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. It was already a challenge to go ahead with this project, it would be nice to see a happy ending to this story.

Very interesting. The pix are pretty dark, but it does look there is an extra coil compared to what I remember seeing in other pix. Moog calls the 81001 out at 17.750", which is what a stock spring would be if new from most places. It is a long as you can get and still get it into the pocket without a spring compressor. The wire should be 1.03" diameter. I usually stand the spring up on end and measure to the highest point by putting a straight edge across the top.



Most people would come up with about 35.5" right away and settle some over time in the front, so are higher than what would be expected. It is possible that Moog has increased the length by 1/2 inch, which would give a bit over 1" more lift approximately. A call to Moog might be in order. Many of the "stock replacement" springs from them are longer than stock. The ones I got for my old Buick Roadmaster were about 1/2" longer than stock and needed a compressor to put in, so very possible they have changed to get a bit more lift.


Bowing some is normal on the vans. If it is too much it will be getting close to or hitting the knuckle on the outboard side of the spring. The test another member ran with longer springs seemed to indicate that the problem of bowing isn't a big deal until the springs are about 1" longer, but that was on a different wire size spring. Check the knuckle area and see how close you are.


Normally, as you go up in the front suspension, the alignment will change a bunch from what you had. It is likely you will increase toe in, decrease caster, and increase camber. The max caster you can get will likely be a bit less than it used to be as you will run out of adjuster travel if you also want to stay positive on the camber.


As for the worn parts, it is hard to tell, but odd it wouldn't have been mentioned before at the last alignment. The one I would be the most suspect of would be the lower ball joints, as they have to separate them to put the springs in and it is not uncommon for the grease boots to get damaged trying to get them separated or back together as they compress the spring with the lower control arm. I think that a second opinion on the entire front end parts would be in order. By the time you get all of those listed parts, all that is left is tie rod ends (4), and they are pretty cheap, on the lower steering stuff and the upper ball joints. Unless those parts are relatively new, I think I would do all of them at the same time as you have to get aligned at each replacement and even one extra alignment might pay for the extra parts to do it all.


The spring length is very interesting. I hope you are able to get some information from Moog on that. You might also ask your installer if the had to use a compressor on them, as that is also a clue.

[hbn7hj]

I did the same thing. Got the Moog springs from RockAuto. Original fender height was 34", after measurement was 37".

No problem with alignment. They did wipe out the front left ABS and a new sensor wouldn't fix it. For some reason it took a visit to the Chevy dealer and a new front hub to get ABS back. Bilstein shocks were added, too. My vehicle is a 2003 Roadtrek Chevy 190P.

I've traveled 1500 miles since and I'm very happy with it except for the fact that pavement cracks rattle my teeth. Is that caused by springs or Bilsteins?

Anything I can do to help, let me know. Email in profile. The Roadtrek is sitting in a mudhole right now but tell me what you want and I'll comply ASAP. I can count coils, measure coil diameter and take pictures.

All in all I'm a happy guy with good ground clearance and handling. I'll live with harshness. It didn't bother me at all on the trip to New Mexico, just on a local bad road.

I didn't pay attention to the box labels from RockAuto and don't have them now. The installer didn't say a word about difficulties other than messing up the ABS.

[hbn7hj]

I count 8 coils and a wire diameter of 1.075" Could be an error of measurement there of .025. As for the bow mine seem to lift off the seat rather than bow.

A coil could be hidden in the mounting cup. There does seem to be a 9th coil hidden in the upper cup. Can't get my fingers in there to feel and certainly can't see it.

[lejeep]

From Booster
Very interesting. The pix are pretty dark, but it does look there is an extra coil compared to what I remember seeing in other pix. Moog calls the 81001 out at 17.750", which is what a stock spring would be if new from most places. It is a long as you can get and still get it into the pocket without a spring compressor. The wire should be 1.03" diameter. I usually stand the spring up on end and measure to the highest point by putting a straight edge across the top.

Sorry for the pix being too dark. Pretty sure it's a typo when you wrote 81001 instead of 81004, if not let me know what I am missing.
So I am pretty sure I measured correctly and I get 18 1/4in free length. I should have halted the install but I did not have the 81004 specs with me so was not sure what was correct. I did see 81004 on the box. Also, the installer did not want me on the floor (insurance policy they say). Had to sneek in here and there to take pix. I know they had problems installing the springs, at one point they were 3 people to (I guess) open up the gap to fit the spring in there. They do not have a spring compressor.

Most people would come up with about 35.5" right away and settle some over time in the front, so are higher than what would be expected. It is possible that Moog has increased the length by 1/2 inch, which would give a bit over 1" more lift approximately. A call to Moog might be in order. Many of the "stock replacement" springs from them are longer than stock. The ones I got for my old Buick Roadmaster were about 1/2" longer than stock and needed a compressor to put in, so very possible they have changed to get a bit more lift.

Looked all over but could not find a contact number for Moog. Would you have that info ? I hope you are wrong about them changing specs and keeping the same pn.

Bowing some is normal on the vans. If it is too much it will be getting close to or hitting the knuckle on the outboard side of the spring. The test another member ran with longer springs seemed to indicate that the problem of bowing isn't a big deal until the springs are about 1" longer, but that was on a different wire size spring. Check the knuckle area and see how close you are.

Again sorry for the dark pix but I can tell you the inner side is about 1/4in from the shock sitting in park position. This looks like too close for comfort IMO.(check pic please)
As for what you call the knuckle, do you mean where the upper ball joint sits or somewhere else?(check pic please)
(I am not really a susp/steering specialist as you can see.)

Normally, as you go up in the front suspension, the alignment will change a bunch from what you had. It is likely you will increase toe in, decrease caster, and increase camber. The max caster you can get will likely be a bit less than it used to be as you will run out of adjuster travel if you also want to stay positive on the camber.

If it's any help, here is a pic of the alignement results from the installer. Any comments?

Again thank you for your precious time in this project.

[booster]

I looked up the 81004 on the Moog spring spec list and it is still the same as it always was at 17.75" tall and 1.030" diameter wire.


It is interesting that hbn7hj also got higher than folks have in the past with his recent install.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

From Booster
Very interesting. The pix are pretty dark, but it does look there is an extra coil compared to what I remember seeing in other pix. Moog calls the 81001 out at 17.750", which is what a stock spring would be if new from most places. It is a long as you can get and still get it into the pocket without a spring compressor. The wire should be 1.03" diameter. I usually stand the spring up on end and measure to the highest point by putting a straight edge across the top.

Sorry for the pix being too dark. Pretty sure it's a typo when you wrote 81001 instead of 81004, if not let me know what I am missing.
So I am pretty sure I measured correctly and I get 18 1/4in free length. I should have halted the install but I did not have the 81004 specs with me so was not sure what was correct. I did see 81004 on the box. Also, the installer did not want me on the floor (insurance policy they say). Had to sneek in here and there to take pix. I know they had problems installing the springs, at one point they were 3 people to (I guess) open up the gap to fit the spring in there. They do not have a spring compressor.

Most people would come up with about 35.5" right away and settle some over time in the front, so are higher than what would be expected. It is possible that Moog has increased the length by 1/2 inch, which would give a bit over 1" more lift approximately. A call to Moog might be in order. Many of the "stock replacement" springs from them are longer than stock. The ones I got for my old Buick Roadmaster were about 1/2" longer than stock and needed a compressor to put in, so very possible they have changed to get a bit more lift.

Looked all over but could not find a contact number for Moog. Would you have that info ? I hope you are wrong about them changing specs and keeping the same pn.

Bowing some is normal on the vans. If it is too much it will be getting close to or hitting the knuckle on the outboard side of the spring. The test another member ran with longer springs seemed to indicate that the problem of bowing isn't a big deal until the springs are about 1" longer, but that was on a different wire size spring. Check the knuckle area and see how close you are.

Again sorry for the dark pix but I can tell you the inner side is about 1/4in from the shock sitting in park position. This looks like too close for comfort IMO.(check pic please)
As for what you call the knuckle, do you mean where the upper ball joint sits or somewhere else?(check pic please)
(I am not really a susp/steering specialist as you can see.)

Normally, as you go up in the front suspension, the alignment will change a bunch from what you had. It is likely you will increase toe in, decrease caster, and increase camber. The max caster you can get will likely be a bit less than it used to be as you will run out of adjuster travel if you also want to stay positive on the camber.

If it's any help, here is a pic of the alignement results from the installer. Any comments?

Again thank you for your precious time in this project.

yep on the typo should be 81004


Here is a link to the Photog thread that shows the contact point that he got from bowing of springs.


http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...html#post15241


The alignment screen shows a lot of bad stuff. More caster on left than right is backwards, way to much camber on the left and big crosscamber.



Those issues could be caused be bad lower ball joints or uppers. I would think the van would drift to the right quite a bit, especially on a crowned road.


The added height you and hbn7hj got are a bit of a mystery.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

I looked up the 81004 on the Moog spring spec list and it is still the same as it always was at 17.75" tall and 1.030" diameter wire.

It is interesting that hbn7hj also got higher than folks have in the past with his recent install.

Booster, I am sure my free length is 18 1/4in.
Do you have a contact number to reach Moog ?
Where did you get the Moog spring spec list that you mention ?

I will also talk to hbn7hj on this forum to get his info. It looks like he and I have exactly the same rig with the same mods, so that's good.

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Booster, I am sure my free length is 18 1/4in.
Do you have a contact number to reach Moog ?
Where did you get the Moog spring spec list that you mention ?

I will also talk to hbn7hj on this forum to get his info. It looks like he and I have exactly the same rig with the same mods, so that's good.

Here is a link to the parts finder. I hope it comes up with my search criteria as it will be easier, but if not put in the 81004.


https://www.moog-suspension-parts.co...il_springs.asp


Here is the support number they list on the website

888-406-2330

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

yep on the typo should be 81004

Here is a link to the Photog thread that shows the contact point that he got from bowing of springs.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f8...html#post15241

The alignment screen shows a lot of bad stuff. More caster on left than right is backwards, way to much camber on the left and big crosscamber.

Those issues could be caused be bad lower ball joints or uppers. I would think the van would drift to the right quite a bit, especially on a crowned road.

The added height you and hbn7hj got are a bit of a mystery.

Got it regarding the contact point, thanks. I think I will have to lift the front to get full extension as I do not know if this is the worst situation (geometry wise) where the spring approaches the knuckle. Even if it has good clearance, I still no not like the minimal clearance with the schocks.

As for the alignement, all I can say for now is that the van does not pull, it has no play that I can feel at all, but the steering wheel is at 11 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock when driving straight.
The installer said he tried 3 times to get the alignement right and had to settle to this configuration. That is when he told me the pitman arm, idler arm + lower ball joints needed to be replaced.
I had a feeling he was trying to find reasons(IMO) to sell me the offset steering wheel.
Could a spring be too long/stiff to alter the geometry to a point where it cannot be aligned properly, leading the installer to think steering parts are worn ?

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Got it regarding the contact point, thanks. I think I will have to lift the front to get full extension as I do not know if this is the worst situation (geometry wise) where the spring approaches the knuckle. Even if it has good clearance, I still no not like the minimal clearance with the schocks.

As for the alignement, all I can say for now is that the van does not pull, it has no play that I can feel at all, but the steering wheel is at 11 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock when driving straight.
The installer said he tried 3 times to get the alignement right and had to settle to this configuration. That is when he told me the pitman arm, idler arm + lower ball joints needed to be replaced.
I had a feeling he was trying to find reasons(IMO) to sell me the offset steering wheel.
Could a spring be too long/stiff to alter the geometry to a point where it cannot be aligned properly, leading the installer to think steering parts are worn ?

The contact number I gave you appear to be for a Moog dealer. I searched for the chart and I thought it was still on the Moog site and looked like, but is not. The chart isn't on the Moog site any more.


Here is the Moog site contact number


800.325.8886


On the alignment you may be running into the same "stuff" that I have lately. With the new alignment machines they have scan the settings so they display, then make the necessary changes, then scan again to see if they got it right. The way the machines work now means that as they adjust, the wheels move a little, messing up all the settings including the one they are changing, so they can' just dial it to the right point. The last time I had the van done, they finally gave up after an hour trying to get it to the spec I wanted, even though there was still enough adjustment left to do it. The all seem to bail at about an hour. Had the old Buick done just few days ago and got the same story of can't get there, too much time, yadda, yadda. The rescanning and not being able to rely on what the screen says as you tighten the cams or shim packs makes it a horrific job. The vans are particularly bad because you have to reach up inside the spring tower to hold the cam locking bolt and that makes the wheels roll or turn enough so the setting on the screen is inaccurate. If you sit on a level surface, you can likely see the very large camber on the left side with the wheel leaning out at the top. Of course you could have gotten the screenprint at a time that wasn't a fresh finish scan, so might not even be where the settings really are.


I am in the process of putting together the parts I need to try doing DIY alignment checks at home. We have a stretch of concrete driveway that is close to level, so by minor shimming of the tires I should be able to get to true level. At that point, the old bubble gauges work just fine, and you don't even really need turntables even though they would be nice. Toe can be set with strings and a tape measure. I should be able to have all I need for about the cost of the not the best Buick alignment.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

I count 8 coils and a wire diameter of 1.075" Could be an error of measurement there of .025. As for the bow mine seem to lift off the seat rather than bow.

A coil could be hidden in the mounting cup. There does seem to be a 9th coil hidden in the upper cup. Can't get my fingers in there to feel and certainly can't see it.

Thanks so much for your input,
Here are 2 pics you could look at and we could compare with your rig. I definitely count 9 coils on the stand alone spring but it looks like 1 coil is hidden when installed.(see pics please) The installed coil is the passenger side viewed from the front.

Questions please;
1- Did you get a chance to measure free length before install ?

2- Is the install recent, Moog could have made a new series 81004 recently maybe ?

3- How many miles were on your rig at install, was there any steering suspension parts that needed to be replaced before alignement ?

4- Any pics of the springs before install ?

5- Would you be so kind as to take a few pics from the same pov as in the pics I'm posting ?
This way we could compare the number of coils we see more accurately.

Again thank you for all your help.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by booster

Here is the Moog site contact number

800.325.8886

On the alignment you may be running into the same "stuff" that I have lately. With the new alignment machines they have scan the settings so they display, then make the necessary changes, then scan again to see if they got it right. The way the machines work now means that as they adjust, the wheels move a little, messing up all the settings including the one they are changing, so they can' just dial it to the right point.

I am in the process of putting together the parts I need to try doing DIY alignment checks at home. We have a stretch of concrete driveway that is close to level, so by minor shimming of the tires I should be able to get to true level. At that point, the old bubble gauges work just fine, and you don't even really need turntables even though they would be nice. Toe can be set with strings and a tape measure. I should be able to have all I need for about the cost of the not the best Buick alignment.

Thanks Booster, will give them a call on monday.
As for alignement, I kind of got the feeling the guy was tired of playing around with it, so setteled for the yada yada stuff also.
In your opinion, is it possible a spring be too long to make alignement impossible ?

And when you are done with the DIY alignement procedure, be sure to post (I'm sure you will anyway)

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Thanks so much for your input,
Here are 2 pics you could look at and we could compare with your rig. I definitely count 9 coils on the stand alone spring but it looks like 1 coil is hidden when installed.(see pics please) The installed coil is the passenger side viewed from the front.

Questions please;
1- Did you get a chance to measure free length before install ?

2- Is the install recent, Moog could have made a new series 81004 recently maybe ?

3- How many miles were on your rig at install, was there any steering suspension parts that needed to be replaced before alignement ?

4- Any pics of the springs before install ?

5- Would you be so kind as to take a few pics from the same pov as in the pics I'm posting ?
This way we could compare the number of coils we see more accurately.

Again thank you for all your help.

Be reminded that our springs date back to before we even knew the Moog springs existed, but they are exactly the same spec and gave the same finished height as the later Moog installs did. I had them out recently to test another spring pair in the van and they are just a touch under 17.75" tall so sagged a tiny bit. They are confirmed at 1.03 wire size.


I just got in for taking a couple of pix of ours, which is stands with front wheels hanging currently.









First pic is right side wheel hanging. Be sure to check if the spring is fully seated in the lower control arm. There is a spring matching pocket it goes into and often needs to be rotated to the proper place in install, but sometimes they don't do that. It is not in the pocket right, it will make the front run high and can bow the spring.


Second pic is the gap to the knuckle which is about 1/2" in this hanging configuration. The piece in the gap is actually a bracket behind the gap.


Our lift must be over 8 years old now and was done at under 15K miles on the van so all the parts were very good.


If your springs measured 18.25" overall, they were 1/2" longer than the spec of any that we have seen measured, I am pretty certain.


Also take a look at the cams and bolts at each pivot of the upper control arm to see if they have really been moved or not. Yours are quite rusty and may be stuck tight. It is not uncommon for a shop to say the aligned things when the really didn't change anything.


If you go to the photog thread that I linked earlier, you should be able for find pics of most of the different springs, but it is a very long thread, so it will take a while to find them.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Thanks so much for your input,
Here are 2 pics you could look at and we could compare with your rig. I definitely count 9 coils on the stand alone spring but it looks like 1 coil is hidden when installed.(see pics please) The installed coil is the passenger side viewed from the front.

Questions please;
1- Did you get a chance to measure free length before install ?
No. Didn't even open the box

2- Is the install recent, Moog could have made a new series 81004 recently maybe ?
Yes, a couple of weeks ago. Parts ordered about a month ago

3- How many miles were on your rig at install, was there any steering suspension parts that needed to be replaced before alignement ?
115,000 miles. No suspension work since I bought it at 44,000 miles. It had original tires at that time and no indication of suspension work. Tire wear has been perfect.

4- Any pics of the springs before install ?
No.
5- Would you be so kind as to take a few pics from the same pov as in the pics I'm posting ?
This way we could compare the number of coils we see more accurately.

Picture should be attached. Note spring does not appear seated.

[lejeep]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Picture should be attached. Note spring does not appear seated.

Thanks for your prompt response.
My luck being what it is right now, of course the flexible brake hose clip is hiding the clearance between the shock and the inner part of the spring in your pic.
When you have time, would you be so kind as to take another one further forward of the clip.(like the one i'm attaching to this thread)

[booster]

Originally Posted by lejeep

Thanks for your prompt response.
My luck being what it is right now, of course the flexible brake hose clip is hiding the clearance between the shock and the inner part of the spring in your pic.
When you have time, would you be so kind as to take another one further forward of the clip.(like the one i'm attaching to this thread)

That clip is behind the gap, so you can see the gap in the pic as it is from the rear of the assembly. The gap is about 1/2" or a bit less.

[booster]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Picture should be attached. Note spring does not appear seated.

Is the weight on the vehicle in that pic. When the spring is unloaded it will come of the lower control arm for more of the bottom turn. To tell for sure you have to look at the very end of the bottom coil and see if it is right at the end of the coil pocket. I can't see if that is the case in the pic.


Re the being able to align with a too long spring. What matters for alignment is the control arm positions which determine the height of the vehicle. At 36.25" at the wheelwell, you are on the high end and would normally lose some caster maximum, but still be able to get a decent alignment. You should not get numbers like you showed.


Did you get a chance to look at the cams to see if they had even been touched?

[booster]

This pic you put on earlier looks like it shows one of the cams in the upper right of the pic at the end of the upper control arm. It appears to not have been moved. The cam is just to the left of the brake line bracket.






Here is ours from a similar angle but closer, you can see the big nut and the cam under it. The nut needs to be loosened and cams moved to adjust the alignment, and at least your one doesn't look to have been touched.







Of interest is if you look at this cam on ours. It is the right side front adjuster. If changed to move the a arm out more, caster and camber would increase. At the last alignment, they said the right side could not get more caster without losing camber, which this adjuster plainly shows was outright BS as there is still adjustment range left to move the arm out.