4 season Roadtrek Zion conversion

[BBQ]

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There are truck campers that are specifically designed for 4 season use.
They are built with a sandwich foam core that provides good insulation.
You see lots of them in Alaska.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Glad to see it can be done..... Nice rig. How many miles are on your RV? Has it been reliable thus far?

44,000 miles over 20 months. We actually slowed down since June because we are simultaneously selling and building a new home that won't be completed until March. Had we not made that decision we would have been over 55,000 miles in under two years. We cancelled trips to the Pacific northwest and Texas.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Be careful with this approach. Some of the most vulnerable parts of the system, such as pumps, filters, and nooks and crannies inside faucets and other fixtures tend not to drain completely with just a gravity drain. Compressed air helps to clear out such spots.

I have had pretty good luck with full-function winter camping in the northeast during frigid weather. We think keeping the water systems working is part of the challenge. Look for state parks that have year-round lodges (e.g., Canaan Valley in West Virginia)--they often have year-round electric camping as well. Also look for parks near ski areas.

As for condensation, we find that keeping the roof vent open a bit helps a lot. Turn on the fan while showering.

I totally agree, you can't just drain a system and expect it to be safe. It has to be a system that was designed to be easily freeze proof drained, using the right parts and design. Vacation cabins in freezing areas have been designed to be easy to drain for a long time. Low spot drains, high spot vents, etc. Same with cooling towers. You don't have to get out 100% of the water, only enough so if it freezes it can't expand in a confined area.

[Bud]

Hi Davydd,

When is Advanced RV going to install your Tesla Automatic Pilot system?

Bud

[mojoman]

I installed a layup circuit, a single outside 15amp plug that powers the engine and aux battery trickle chargers, a 150watt heated mat I keep next to the lithium battery bank and 50 watt water tank heater. Only had to use the heaters for a few days last winter. I usually keep the smart trickle chargers on when the unit is idle for more than a week to keep them up and desulfated.

[eric1514]

I camped a few days in my Class C in below freezing temps by not using the water system. I blew it out with compressed air before we left.

I took aguatainers full of water for cooking, washing and the potty. They were stored inside. I put a gallon of antifreeze in the gray tank and one in the blacktank.

Eric

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Bud

Hi Davydd,

When is Advanced RV going to install your Tesla Automatic Pilot system?

Bud

Not before May most likely. We plan to go to Advanced Fest then and get updated.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The last I heard from Roadtrek, they are preparing a Winter Usage Guide which should clarify all of the low temperature operational and storage considerations.

I received an Ecotrek guideline from Roadtrek today called "Owner's Manual
EcoTrek_Battery_Guide". It answered a lot of my questions. Looks like things will work well for my purposes. The manual included a lot of detail on cold and hot weather usage, and when Ecotrek automatically shuts the module down. The description sounded pretty reasonable for cold and hot weather usage. What wasn't described is the interaction with VoltStart - there are 3 reasons the Ecotrek batteries will shutdown (too hot, too cold, and low charge). I haven't seen specifically what triggers VoltStart to trigger GU start. I asked a series of related questions back to Roadtrek. It did note that VoltStart will run the battery heaters, and if -15C for example, it could take 60 to 90 minutes to warm the batteries before the batteries would begin to charge. This is a bit extreme in that batteries under load tend to be warm on their own.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

There is nothing gray about this. You can't be held accountable for violating a battery spec never presented.

The following language in the Roadtrek 6 year warranty includes the following disclaimers:

10. Warranty is voided if the EcoTrek batteries are tampered with, opened, or modified in any way, including attempts to change the Battery Management System programming or setpoints.

11. Warranty is voided if the EcoTrek batteries are allowed to remain in a dicharged condition for extensive periods.


These batteries are not appliances with typical shotgun warranty exclusions. There is presently no language in the above disclaimers that even addresses, much less burdens the owner with managing battery temperatures in tropical or arctic conditions. That's why it's their problem, not mine.

Thanks... I did receive the "Owner's Manual EcoTrek_Battery_Guide" today from Roadtrek. You are correct, but their manual states that the modules will shutdown if too hot, too cold, or at low charge limit. Therefore, you can't damage them in these 3 states. I've asked them a few questions about how they prevent getting into these states including specifics on how VoltStart works. My basic concern is these modules shutting down while unattended with you relying on the supply of power.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

I received an Ecotrek guideline from Roadtrek today called "Owner's Manual
EcoTrek_Battery_Guide". It answered a lot of my questions. Looks like things will work well for my purposes. The manual included a lot of detail on cold and hot weather usage, and when Ecotrek automatically shuts the module down. The description sounded pretty reasonable for cold and hot weather usage. What wasn't described is the interaction with VoltStart - there are 3 reasons the Ecotrek batteries will shutdown (too hot, too cold, and low charge). I haven't seen specifically what triggers VoltStart to trigger GU start. I asked a series of related questions back to Roadtrek. It did note that VoltStart will run the battery heaters, and if -15C for example, it could take 60 to 90 minutes to warm the batteries before the batteries would begin to charge. This is a bit extreme in that batteries under load tend to be warm on their own.

When warming up the batteries from -15C, I think you might find that the lithium battery cells are still offline and not under load so there is no internal warming taking place. At least that was the case last winter when it was explained that the battery heaters in this case are only powered by the underhood generator with the AGM.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

Thanks... I did receive the "Owner's Manual EcoTrek_Battery_Guide" today from Roadtrek. You are correct, but their manual states that the modules will shutdown if too hot, too cold, or at low charge limit. Therefore, you can't damage them in these 3 states. I've asked them a few questions about how they prevent getting into these states including specifics on how VoltStart works. My basic concern is these modules shutting down while unattended with you relying on the supply of power.

Is the guide you received more recent than the one released in July?

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

How much power do you have for heat trace???
How long can they last?


Black tank is not too big a concern. In Freezing conditions, you are not going to be boondocking for weeks. You are most likely going to use a garbage bag over the toilet.

The gray tank is also not too big a concern.
Pure water freezes at zero degrees celsius.
Dirty water freezes at a lower temperature.
Just dump some antifreeze in there and it will hold off freezing for awhile.

When winter camping, IMHO you are not going to use the fresh water tank. You bring bottled water for drinking, cooking, and sponge bathing. You have to winterize all the plumbing so that they are not at risk of ice damage.

To a large extent, I agree. The inconvenience of dealing with dumping black and gray tanks in the off season where most dump stations are closed in many cases would override the convenience of having running hot and cold water.

The Roadtrek has 400 AH lithium batteries. The heat trace products I looked at are 3W/ft or 4W/ft at -40C. There is only 10 ft of under floor line. The fresh water tank is above the floor so no heater if van heat is on. The black, gray, and drains would be 2 tank heaters and another 10 ft or so of heat line. A rough estimate is 160 watt assuming everything on at once. The Roadtrek also has VoltStart so it will start the GU generator if charge ran low.

Skiing trips would generally be limited to a couple days.

My interest in the heat tracing and tank heating is largely surrounding where we are in freezing temps at night or for relatively short periods like a few days.

The lack of open dump stations makes it difficult to deal with waste tanks no matter how you slice it. I searched that SaniDump.com website. Almost everything in Ontario at least is only open April to October. I believe their is a dump in my home town open year round that would do for shorter trips.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

It appears based on being on the site for about two years and listening to long-time RVers that trying to make a Class B RV 4-season capable is a fight that under most conditions cannot be won.

1st and foremost the glazing is not designed to retain heat in the colder season.

2nd - Are there many camping facilities where dump stations are open during the winter season should you use the on-board bathroom and kitchen?

Seems like 3 out of 4 seasons is do-able but that 4th season pushes the limits for RVing

What is Roadtrek's official statement about using their product in the winter months?

I think the 2nd is the real gotcha. It appears most other issues can be dealt with. I've come to realize this from doing some research. I think for short trips like skiiing - we'd rough it to avoid the dump hassle. For longer trips where we will be traveling and in and out of freezing conditions, we'd have to do some planning.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by booster

The really easy way is to just make the water system true low point drainable. Open the drain and maybe a faucet or two and a vent, and all the freezable stuff is gone until you want it again. No antifreeze, no compressor, no heaters, almost no work, and relatively foolproof.

Thanks... A lot of the van's plumbing is in horizontal runs. This might work, but I'd feel more confident if it was blown. I guess a few experiments would prove it out.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

Thanks... I did receive the "Owner's Manual EcoTrek_Battery_Guide" today from Roadtrek. You are correct, but their manual states that the modules will shutdown if too hot, too cold, or at low charge limit. Therefore, you can't damage them in these 3 states. I've asked them a few questions about how they prevent getting into these states including specifics on how VoltStart works. My basic concern is these modules shutting down while unattended with you relying on the supply of power.

When the coach is occupied, Roadtrek's Voltstart feature keeps batteries charged and temperature stable. But when unattended, keeping these batteries alive and well under arctic conditions lower than -4F is a bit tricky. As long as the battery is on line, it provides sufficient heater support to keep the battery in a stable condition. However, the heaters pull somewhere in the vicinity of 4-5 amps for each battery which will eventually result in a sufficient discharge for the BMS to shut the battery off, at which point its temperature is determined by the below chassis ambient temperature.

This concern can be mitigated and maybe even wholly resolved by sufficient solar support if the coach gets a reasonable amount of sunlight. I believe the Zion has a 300 watt solar option which would do a a pretty good job in that regard.

[mojoman]

Answer to dumping your black water tank when none available is simple"
Democratic Campaign Bus Dumps Human Waste in Georgia Sewer : snopes.com

[BBQ]

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You might have enough gasoline to last one day.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by mojoman

Answer to dumping your black water tank when none available is simple"
Democratic Campaign Bus Dumps Human Waste in Georgia Sewer : snopes.com

The Dave Matthews Band had a better solution in Chicago.

The time Dave Matthews Band dropped raw sewage on 100 people in Chicago | Fusion

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by mojoman

Answer to dumping your black water tank when none available is simple"
Democratic Campaign Bus Dumps Human Waste in Georgia Sewer : snopes.com

That headline is misleading. If you read story they dumped the campaign bus waste into the STORM drain, not the sewer. Yuck!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BBQ]

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I doubt that's the black tank.
But the media (esp opposing media) like to make a drama out of sensational topics.