4 season Roadtrek Zion conversion

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

Thanks!
I was able to order the alde heating system for the Zion. That's why I thought it would have the capacity to stay warm. Insulation may not be great but the space is quite small in a 21 foot van.

There are 2 ALDE systems...

the in-floor glycol radiant heating system as in the picture,

and

the ALDE force air system.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

Thanks for the feedback. The winter skiing gig is something I really haven't given a ton of thought to. A nice to have.

I assumed the heating could keep ahead of the cold. Even our tent trailer could keep warm on very cold nights. Its something I will definitely investigate further.

The tent trailer could keep warm, but you did not shower in it.


The next big challenge wintering in an RV is -- condensation.

It will drive you nuts.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by BBQ

There are 2 ALDE systems...

the in-floor glycol radiant heating system as in the picture,

and

the ALDE force air system.

The system I bought was radiant heat in the floor. It was a pricy option. That I went for for comfort in cold weather. We have heated floors in our bathrooms at home and love the effect!

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by BBQ

The tent trailer could keep warm, but you did not shower in it.


The next big challenge wintering in an RV is -- condensation.

It will drive you nuts.

+1

If minus 20C or minus 30C outside then I'd anticipate that condensation to turn to ice inside the RV on windows and the inner sides of exposed sheet metal. A tent trailer would more allow the exchange of warm wet air inside with cold dry air from outside but you still have condensation issues with tent trailers.

Showering would dump a tremendous amount of humidity into the atmosphere in the van. If more moisture is introduced than the air temperature can support or if you allow the temperature in the van to drop that moisture will turn to condensation on cold surfaces.

Ideally you'd have a way to move air around in the van; in cabinets, under bunks etc. Moisture can form under foam mattresses if the space below the bed is cold. A controlled way to exchange some of the warm and relatively wet air inside by bringing in some cold dry air would be helpful in trying to manage the humidity level in the van.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Cannuck

The system I bought was radiant heat in the floor. It was a pricy option. That I went for for comfort in cold weather. We have heated floors in our bathrooms at home and love the effect!

That's a new one. I thought the in-floor radiant heat is only available in the Sprinter.


Check this out

Part Eleven – A New Vehicle, New Questions – Class B Warned

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by markopolo

+1

Ideally you'd have a way to move air around in the van; in cabinets, under bunks etc. Moisture can form under foam mattresses if the space below the bed is cold. A controlled way to exchange some of the warm and relatively wet air inside by bringing in some cold dry air would be helpful in trying to manage the humidity level in the van.

I guess I am unusual but I keep warm by idling the van engine all night. I have the engine coolant piped down the center of the floor (floor heat) to the a rear radiator/evaporator. So the the dash heater brings in a controlled (dash fan speed) amount of dry air from the outside and heats it before bringing it into the van, while the rear radiator and floor pipes keeps the rear comfortable.

Simple but it works. I control the rear heat with a thermostat on the wall.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Regarding batteries...

in case you are not aware,


For Li-ion operations, most manufacturers recommend:

Charge temperature
0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F)

Discharge temperature
–20°C to 60°C (–4°F to 140°F)

The extreme allowable temperature for storage
–40°C to 50°C (–40°C to 122°F)


Tesla have built-in heater and cooler in their batteries.

Do you have a citation for the extreme allowable temperature for storage? Elite Power Solutions, the marketers for the GBS LiFePO4 batteries used by Technomadia, Advanced RV and others say -4F (-20C) to be the lowest allowable battery temperature for cold storage with external heat applied.

Also, for charging the optimum battery temperature should be above 41F (5C).

Mishandling at low temperatures can be fatal to the batteries. Mishandling at high temperatures might not be fatal but can diminish battery capacity. Technomadia, for instance described diminished capacity but not fatal abusing their batteries in high temperatures over 3.5 years in the Arizona summers.

In Minnesota I don't worry much about high temperatures but plan to keep my lithium ion batteries above 41F at all times.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

I guess I am unusual but I keep warm by idling the van engine all night. I have the engine coolant piped down the center of the floor (floor heat) to the a rear radiator/evaporator. So the the dash heater brings in a controlled (dash fan speed) amount of dry air from the outside and heats it before bringing it into the van, while the rear radiator and floor pipes keeps the rear comfortable.

Simple but it works. I control the rear heat with a thermostat on the wall.

Just thought I'd add a note here about CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning. This is not directed at DCHitt. I just mention it because some folks are not aware of the risk of death from CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning.

Apparently there's less risk with diesel engines than gas engines but everyone should do their own research.

Camper vans have additional holes in the body - some large enough to permit mice to enter apparently. Be careful & be safe.

A Ram Promaster manual has this bit of advice:

Exhaust gases can injure or kill. They contain carbon
monoxide (CO), which is colorless and odorless.
Breathing it can make you unconscious and can
eventually poison you. To avoid breathing (CO),
follow these safety tips:
• Do not run the engine in a closed garage or in
confined areas any longer than needed to move
your vehicle in or out of the area.
• If you are required to drive with the trunk/liftgate/
rear doors open, make sure that all windows are
closed and the climate control BLOWER switch is
set at high speed. DO NOT use the recirculation
mode.
• If it is necessary to sit in a parked vehicle with the
engine running, adjust your heating or cooling
controls to force outside air into the vehicle. Set the
blower at high speed.

I just felt obligated to mention this for anyone who is not aware of the risk of CO poisoning.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Just thought I'd add a note here about CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning. This is not directed at DCHitt. I just mention it because some folks are not aware of the risk of death from CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning.

Apparently there's less risk with diesel engines than gas engines but everyone should do their own research.

Camper vans have additional holes in the body - some large enough to permit mice to enter apparently. Be careful & be safe.

A Ram Promaster manual has this bit of advice:

I just felt obligated to mention this for anyone who is not aware of the risk of CO poisoning.

Good advice, My van came with a CO alarm and I carry a second one that gives a display with the amount of CO even when it is below the alarm level.

My experience with an Onan carries the same warnings. I had alarms go off with the Onan when no wind was blowing or was blowing in the wrong direction. Even though I was heating with Propane the Onan was required because the heater fan was running all the time.

My Promaster brings air in from the front and goes through a filter. The CO is exiting from the rear. If I have a choice, I sit with the front of the van into the wind.

[Jostalli]

I think the Zion is a fine choice but most if not all RV manufacturers use the bare minimum insulation. Your heating will be on at all times in below freezing temps. Also, no RV manufacturers use double pane or insulated windows. This is where all your heat loss comes from. We have a promaster and cut two layers of reflectix for the side windows, which helps but is only around R-2. Hardly enough to stop heat loss. We have tank heaters and I just ordered heat tape for the water lines but I do not believe it is enough for extended below-freezing camping. I will be interested in your progress. Please keep us posted.

[gregmchugh]

It will be interesting to see how the Hymer Aktiv handles cold weather with the double pane windows and possibly better insulation and the cassette toilet and interior water tank. At least, I imagine that the insulation in a European Hymer is better than what Roadtrek has been using in the Zion.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

It will be interesting to see how the Hymer Aktiv handles cold weather with the double pane windows and possibly better insulation and the cassette toilet and interior water tank. At least, I imagine that the insulation in a European Hymer is better than what Roadtrek has been using in the Zion.

We have been traveling in Mexico for the last 4 months and have only seen european overlanders. All of them have double pane windows and well insulated vans/trucks. They have to open their windows even when it is cold out just to cool down the interior. Amazing.

I sincerely hope Hymer brought over their insulation standards.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Do you have a citation for the extreme allowable temperature for storage? Elite Power Solutions, the marketers for the GBS LiFePO4 batteries used by Technomadia, Advanced RV and others say -4F (-20C) to be the lowest allowable battery temperature for cold storage with external heat applied.
::

You are right... I copied the wrong column of numbers.

[mojoman]

All RV's, with the exception of one special RV on this site, will have weak areas concerning insulation. Easy to find with a $20 Infrared Thermometer. Adding double sided foam tape to prevent thermal bridging, stuffing Thinsulate behind panels and making curtains that actually insulate helps. My wife is quite handy on the sewing machine and made magnetic covers with Thinsulate quilting. Ceramic tint on windows will help reflect the heat back in. We are constantly improving the R factor of our RV inside and out. Every little bit helps.

[ClassB4Me]

I suspect the next generation Ducato will be engineered with a 4x4 option and can support a higher ground clearance. Fiat has too large of a market share to give it up to Mercedes globally.

Fiat experiments with 4x4 Ducato camper van

https://youtu.be/YGmn44ZktrQ



In 2016, it appears the only way to get a true 4-season RV is to go to a customizer.

The roof also carries half-a-dozen fuel jerry cans (which could be switched for water, of course), a couple of spare tyres and a pair of recovery road tracks.

A permanent 4WD system from Dangel ensures the ‘4X4’ badge isn’t just for show, with power reaching all four wheels from the Ducato’s 2.3 litre turbo-diesel engine producing 112kW.

There’s no roughing it once the campers arrive at their destination, however, with the interior boasting a flat screen television, air conditioning, a folding double bed and a kitchenette with sink and cooktop.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

We have been traveling in Mexico for the last 4 months and have only seen european overlanders. All of them have double pane windows and well insulated vans/trucks. They have to open their windows even when it is cold out just to cool down the interior. Amazing.

I sincerely hope Hymer brought over their insulation standards.

I looked at the options sheet for the version of the Hymer Akitv in Europe and the grey tank is also insulated and you can add an option to have it heated so it can be set up for 4 season use. If, for any reason, they are not using the same level of insulation over here there are making a big mistake, I would think, for there are going to be many buyers who are probably into winter sports.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Do you have a citation for the extreme allowable temperature for storage? Elite Power Solutions, the marketers for the GBS LiFePO4 batteries used by Technomadia, Advanced RV and others say -4F (-20C) to be the lowest allowable battery temperature for cold storage with external heat applied.

Also, for charging the optimum battery temperature should be above 41F (5C).

Mishandling at low temperatures can be fatal to the batteries. Mishandling at high temperatures might not be fatal but can diminish battery capacity. Technomadia, for instance described diminished capacity but not fatal abusing their batteries in high temperatures over 3.5 years in the Arizona summers.

In Minnesota I don't worry much about high temperatures but plan to keep my lithium ion batteries above 41F at all times.

Thanks for the feedback. I will dig deeper into it. What your saying was one of my concerns as I'd heard the LiPo batteries couldn't be charged below 0C. Roadtrek provided an information video for me to watch. It claimed that their Ecotrek battery modules could be used down to -40C. Given that Roadtrek appears to be a very conservative company, and the fact that they warrant the battery modules for 6 years, I'd be surprised if their claims were grossly exaggerated.

[Cannuck]

Originally Posted by BBQ

That's a new one. I thought the in-floor radiant heat is only available in the Sprinter.


Check this out

Part Eleven – A New Vehicle, New Questions – Class B Warned

In the factory, I actually stood in a Zion that had the under floor heating pipes exposed, to make sure it didn't reduce the headroom significantly. For anyone considering it, it wasn't an issue.

[Cannuck]

Agreed... good advice. The Roadtrek has a CO alarm but I would definitely think twice about enabling the Ecotrek Voltstart (auto engine starter) if it was snowing or predicting snow fall. Makes you realize you better have enough power to make it through the night without starting the van engine.

[Cannuck]

I'll have to think of something for the windows. I'm thinking something thicker with magnet strips to hold it on (I'm thinking the back doors).

I have been in contact with the support people at heatline.com. Very helpful if you're interested. They told me that for normal RV pressure piping (PEX or metal) running their Kompensator product along the line's length and wrapping with foam insulation is more than sufficient. The product is self temperature regulating. They did say for the 1 1/2 to 2 inch under floor piping, you have to wrap the Kompensator around the pipes between 2 and 3 feet per foot of pipe depending on how cold it gets. Everything has to be wrapped in pipe insulation to be effective. They also have valve heaters for the gray and black valves. I have only seen Ultraheat.com tank heaters, and they strongly recommend insulating the tanks. I'm thinking to spray them with closed cell foam. I have 2" of it on my basement walls - you could heat the room with a candle. I'll keep you posted on my progress - of course after I receive the van.