1996 to 2002 Chevy Express / GMC Savana Steering

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by peteco

........................... Both the pitman arm and idler arm were shot. Even the guy at the alignment shop missed it initially. It was very noticeable when turning the steering wheel to the stops................

Was that with the wheels off the ground?

I have the wheels off the ground now and spent a good amount of time pulling, pushing and trying to rotate everything steering related. Everything seems good with the exception of the relay rod (aka drag link). I can create a small amount of movement and a noise when I push/pull on it. That part also had some movement when the wheels are on the ground. I'll replace it.

I can rotate the tie rods in their sockets with some effort but there's no movement, noise or play with them.

It feels like an inch of play in the steering wheel with the wheels off the ground. I think it is more like two inches of play with the wheels on the ground. I'll do some very small adjustments to the center set screw on the steering gear tomorrow.

New relay rod, alignment & new rear sway-bar and that might be all that I need.

[markopolo]

Found another grease fitting on the van today. It is 6 to 8 inches forward of the middle u-joint on the drive shaft. 15 lube points / grease fittings found so far : http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...p=16794#p16794

[markopolo]

The first time I lubed the grease fittings on the van I missed the fitting at the top of each idler arm. This time I had the wheels off for the tire rotation and saw the grease fitting on the passenger side. It was covered in dirt and grease so it was hard to see.



The grease fitting on the driver's side upper idler arm was hard to find even though I knew roughly where it was.





15 grease fittings found on my '97 van so far: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...=17175&#p16794

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by markopolo

This link? http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=11#p16954 part# 11 is a center link.

Do you have both a relay rod and center link or just a center link?

I'm trying to figure out the correct names and match them up with part numbers.



Part A above: The same part (in diagrams and photos online) is described as a relay rod, connecting rod or drag link.
Part B above: The other part (in diagrams and photos online) is described as a relay rod or center link.

I think GM Service refers to part A in the image as a Connecting Rod. (I previously referred to this as being a relay rod)
I think GM Service refers to part B in the image as a Relay Rod. (I previously referred to this as being a center link)

Which is part# 26050382 & which is part# 26048566

I now think (A) 26048566 is the Connecting Rod and (B) 26050382 is the Relay Rod. Just hoping someone can confirm this for me.

[markopolo]

Also, I think newer Chevy's don't have a Connecting Rod (Part A) or the driver's side Idler Arm.
Instead the Pitman Arm on newer Chevy's connects directly to the Relay Rod (Part B).

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Also, I think newer Chevy's don't have a Connecting Rod (Part A) or the driver's side Idler Arm.
Instead the Pitman Arm on newer Chevy's connects directly to the Relay Rod (Part B).

On the newer ones, the "relay rod" is gone as is the driver side idler arm. The pitman arm on the steering gear attaches directly to the bar between the two tie rods.

The terms that I have heard over the years seem to be interchangeable based on who is saying them! Relay rod was not a term I have ever heard very much. Back in the day the relay rod was called, most often amongst those I knew, the drag link,, and the one between the tie rods the center link or rod. Now it appears the center link is often referred to as the drag link. I know I tend to call it that. One good thing is that there are so many terms being used for all the parts between the tie rods, it is hard to make a mistake, no matter what you call them.

[markopolo]

The new Moog drag link was delivered today and I'll install it this afternoon.



The old drag link had maybe 1/32" to 1/16" play at each end. The new one is very tight - I can just rotate the ball in the socket with considerable effort. No play at all.
Both nuts should be torqued to 35 lb ft.

[markopolo]

The new Moog drag link has been installed. Removing the old one was easy......... with the right tools. One end came of easy with a separator or fork. The other end (pitman arm) was stubborn. I didn't want to hammer the fork too hard as it was connected to the steering gear so I had to use a puller. It probably had been in place for 17 years and was stuck but it popped apart with the puller.

The new one was easy to install. The Moog part is "beefier". It is thicker everywhere. 1/16" greater diameter, larger bolts. Moog puts the pitman arm end grease zerk on the back side whereas the OEM drag link had the grease zerk on the end.

Couple of curiosities:

#1 - I can't find any play in the old drag link ends with the part off the vehicle. They are easier to turn than the new drag link by far but there's no play that I can detect by hand. However, there is no visible play or slack now with the new drag link when DW moves the steering wheel and I watch the parts. There was a fair bit of movement when we did that test with the old drag link. My guess is that wear (17 years of it) was only right where sockets were positioned and took more force to make it visible.

#2 - The van's steering wheel is just a bit off center now (maybe it always was). The steering wheel has to be positioned slightly clockwise when traveling straight. I'm tempted to tighten the the left tie rod one turn and loosen the right tie rod one turn.

I plan to have a wheel alignment done but was going to wait until I installed the new shocks and the rear sway bar.

Should I wait until I install the new shocks & sway bar before getting the wheel alignment? (I'm not driving the van much now....just test drives really)

Also, the steering is better now (tighter). It is getting close to car like. If I wiggle the steering wheel you can feel the van respond. I can feel very fine movements.

[Mike]

I'm waiting to see how this all turns out. My steering and front end parts array is probably not much different to yours. I'd love to know which mods make the greatest improvement, excepting the sway bar. I'm not sure I'd be able to find someone to do the bar mods booster did, or to move my generator like campskunk did, to make one of them work. I'm thinking alignment and replace parts as necessary, Bilsteins or Konis all around, and probably air bags to firm the rear end in lieu of a sway bar, but what you're doing may give me a better idea of what might work best for me.

[markopolo]

The sway bar is still backordered until the 18th and Summit Racing is holding the Bilstein shocks to ship it all together.
For reference - I'll measure how far the sway bar sits behind the differential so you'll know whether or not it would fit your van. That part of our vans should be very similar.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by markopolo

The sway bar is still backordered until the 18th and Summit Racing is holding the Bilstein shocks to ship it all together.
For reference - I'll measure how far the sway bar sits behind the differential so you'll know whether or not it would fit your van. That part of our vans should be very similar.

That would help. It occurs that booster and campskunk have different vans than ours. Maybe the sway bar wouldn't interfere with my generator. Hope springs eternal? (no pun)

I should have added, if the project were done "one thing at a time" and then tested for quality of felt improvement, that would be really useful. As opposed to adding everything, and then not being able to quantify each new component's individual effect on the steering and ride.
The way you've added the Moog steering rod, and noticed the immediate effect afterwards, as an example.

[markopolo]

On my '97 van I measured that you would need at least 5" clear behind the differential to fit the sway bar.

---------------------------------

Originally Posted by booster

Those are typical alignment numbers. There might be an update on the caster to make them different on each side, but good alignment shop would have the updated specs. This has been the trend on more recent stuff and seems to be intended to make it easier to drive on the right crown, with minimal negative effect on left crown of the road. It may also help address the engine offset to the passenger side. The toe is fairly large compared to the newer ones which are at .1*. If you rebuild the front end and it is very tight, I would go on the light side of toe at maybe .15*, if it is looser, go bigger. Make sure they hand move the front wheels within the looseness and see what the toe actually does, as it will toe toward the out by the amount of looseness in the parts, when you are driving.

Small steering adjustments will always be there. The goal is to get them small enough that you don't overcorrect, or it that takes too long to move far enough to correct. If you can get the corrections under 1/2" at the steering wheel, it should get pretty easy to drive. You may need a rear swaybar to get really good, especially in the wind.

Just an update. I had the van in for a wheel alignment today.

Caster:
Initial left ....................... 3.5°..................Final left ....................... 3.6°
Initial right ...................... 4.1°..................Final right....................... 4.3°

Camber:
Initial left ....................... 0.2°..................Final left ....................... 0.2°
Initial right ......................-0.1°..................Final right......................-0.1°

Toe:
Initial left ....................... 0.2°..................Final left ....................... 0.1°
Initial right .......................0.2°..................Final right......................0.1°
Total...............................0.4°.......... .........Total............................0.2°

The most visible benefit was that the shop set my steering wheel straight as part of the alignment. The wandering or drifting is minimal now. That could very well be the roads here. I can drive one handed with a light touch making small adjustments as needed. There were no steering "corrections" needed today.

The shop checked the front end parts as part of the alignment service call as well.

Summary of all related work:
I replaced one loose steering part - the drag link http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=22#p17391
I upgraded to Bilstein shocks http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=12&t=2854
I added a Hellwig rear sway bar http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=12&t=2858
I adjusted the steering gear center set screw.
After all the updates / upgrades I took took the van in for a wheel alignment.

Steering response is much improved. If I wiggle the steering wheel I can feel the immediate directional influence. The "play" is almost gone. There's no bouncing or porpoising. There's very little lean or sway. The experience in the passenger seat is definitely more relaxing. Sharp turns are fun. I feel very much in control of the vehicle. The more I drove the van today the better it felt as I got used to it. It's more relaxing when driving. The service manager said his alignment specialist with 30 years experience road tested the van after the alignment and said it handles like a new vehicle. My wife likes that there is less “steering” needed now to keep it on its path.

For us I'd have to say it was money well spent. The real benefits will show up on trips with being able to relax more and less fatigue from driving.

[booster]

Sounds good, as the proof is in the driving. The cross caster and cross camber you have both work against the crown of the road. It is probably pretty straight and easy on the right crown (2 lane). It will be interesting if you see a difference when you get on a left crown. Cross caster and camber will usually make it behave differently on each side of the crown. Ours is aligned with cross caster, heavy right like yours, but is essentially zero with no cross camber, unlike you. We go down a right crown a tiny, tiny bit, and go down a left crown a bit quicker, but not difficult to counteract. We also have a about 1* more caster on both fronts than you do. Your specs are essentially the same as my service manual for the 1997 Roadmaster. The newer stuff has increased caster to get more directional stability, I think, as they have reduced the toe to .1* total, probably for mileage and tire wear.

Here is a link to an article that says what the alignment numbers will do to the tracking. It is nice to have if you notice an issue, as you then know what the tech should be looking at and changing. On older vehicles it is pretty common to alter the alignment a bit after a post alignment drive, to get the tracking better.

http://sandyblogs.com/techlink/?p=608

I think you will find the drives to be a lot less tiring now, I know I sure do. Funny thing is that I get more tired as a passenger, but with the van handling very well, even that gets less tiring.

[markopolo]

That's a good link thanks. The troughs were clearly visible in the road where I noticed a lazy drift or wandering, right and then left, and the illustrations show why.

[markopolo]

I had an interesting experience with troughs in my lane driving the car on different highways earlier this week.

The first experience was noticing how the car would drift left then right because of the troughs in the road. I noticed that if I did not move the steering wheel at all my car stayed in its lane. It was an odd feeling to resist correcting and just let the car follow what the trough dictated. The car would start to move left then correct its path and move to the right endlessly repeating that. It even tracked through slight curves on the highway with no input from me.

Later that same day on another highway the car would not stay in the deeper troughs. It would drift left and climb out of the trough necessitating a steering correction. The same thing would happen when it drifted to the right.

On stretches of newer pavement the car just tracked normally.

So, if you suspect a steering issue, do your testing on a few different roads to make sure the steering issue you suspect is not being caused by the road you are driving on.

[Mike]

Good point about roads affecting your drive.
When we lived in the Niagara Region, and occasionally drove to and from the north side of Lake Ontario for various reasons, we noticed an oddity which turned out to be the roadway. The Niagara bound QEW highway, just past the merger with the southbound RedHill Valley Parkway, would cause a noticeable continuous chassis vibration, similar to hitting a very slight washboard or "textured pavement" section of road, and it presented in all 3 lanes. If you weren't expecting it, you'd swear you were having a suspension or tire balance or other problem. It would disappear after about a mile or so. The suspicion that it was caused by the road, was supported after a few trips, in that it was temporary, seemed to affect all three vehicles, and was always in roughly the same spot. It also seemed to affect our vehicles with longer wheelbases more than the Cavalier. I searched online and found I wasn't the only one noticing the phenomena. That section of pavement doesn't appear to be any different from the sections prior to and after it, to the naked eye at 100 kph.
edit: adding caveat to any travelers on here to be aware of it.

[booster]

I was wondering how the van finally turned out for you. How do you rate the overall improvement and did you get the results you expected? Worth the cost and work?

[markopolo]

I think it was worth it. I certainly don't have any regrets re: spending the money or the effort of the DIY parts installations. DW is pleased. She drove the van more last year and wanted the upgrades. I didn't get the chance to drive the van much though after the wheel alignment on Nov 26. It was Snowmageddon around here not long after that. We can hardly wait until Spring weather to really try it out.

I kind of wish I had driven it after the Bilstein shocks were installed and before the sway bar was installed just to be able to report on effects felt after each installation. I felt I was running out of time because of winter coming so I installed the shocks and the sway bar at the same time.

The few drives I did take before parking the van for winter were fun. I love the way the van handles right angle turns, highway exits / entrances, rough roads etc. now. The van stays very vertical, no leaning compared to before the upgrades. The new shocks really control the bounce.