Tiniest Hymer Promaster Carrado/Axion

[jharu]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Dougbaty... are you aware of the reason for the 3rd AGM battery? It is basically there to restart the Lithium batteries if they shut down for any reason... and they can be temperamental.

(I can't wait to get my solar panel stilts and put my spare tire up there... already have a Fantastic Fan)

That actually brings up another great point.
Where do you folks carry the spare in a van?
I saw a contraption Hymer has on its Roadtreks where you carry the spare like a Jeep or SUV, behind one of the van doors, and it even has a counterweight mechanism!

But all the Axions and WGO Travatos I have seen have no spare tire!
I don't think they come with run flat tires, do they?

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by jharu

That actually brings up another great point.
Where do you folks carry the spare in a van?
I saw a contraption Hymer has on its Roadtreks where you carry the spare like a Jeep or SUV, behind one of the van doors, and it even has a counterweight mechanism!

But all the Axions and WGO Travatos I have seen have no spare tire!
I don't think they come with run flat tires, do they?

All you get is an “inflation kit”. The holding tank consumes the former spare area. There’s an option for the rear carrier. For the first 2 years (if you buy new) you get roadside service included.

Regarding the plumbing. The macerator is built into the toilet so when you flush you macerate. There is a separate pump next to the low point in the holding tank that pumps your gunk high enough to become a gravity feed from the hose attachment point. There is no way to flush except to put extra water/cleanser down the toilet.

[mumkin]

My first Class B, there was a spare on the rear door... I never touched it in 3 years. My second was a small C, and it came without even the option of a spare... never needed one in 4 years. My current Roadtrek had the option of the Continental Kit on their usual added hitch, but I found that I was unable to easily get it up and down... and I need access to the rear doors. So, the spare is in storage.

I have roadside assistance... it is not as though I could change it.

[dougbaty]

Originally Posted by jharu

One question for @Dougbaty -
Did you measure the ground clearance on the Axion and Banff?
How do they compare to Winnebago Travato or Roadtrek Zion?

Thanks for all the research!

Answer from DougBaty: The Travato & Zion are on the same chassis as the Axion, only longer. I didn't measure the ground clearance, but can tell you it is too low to crawl under. Also, the 2nd alternator is hung below the engine, so on those RTs & Hymers with an UHG (most of them) the ground clearance is 2" less than before. "The Fit RV" has a complete analysis of Travato ground clearance - James is fussy about such things. See his blog at https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/our...-and-inverter/

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by jharu

One question for @Dougbaty -
Did you measure the ground clearance on the Axion and Banff?
How do they compare to Winnebago Travato or Roadtrek Zion?

Thanks for all the research!

ALL Promasters will have their rear axle as the lowest point. It's about 6-1/2" above the ground. I've yet to see any vans with something hanging below the axle.

[jharu]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

ALL Promasters will have their rear axle as the lowest point. It's about 6-1/2" above the ground. I've yet to see any vans with something hanging below the axle.

Great info! I'll take a tape measure with me and check it out

[cholle1]

Is there anyone here that owns an Axion?

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by cholle1

Is there anyone here that owns an Axion?

I'll be getting mine somewhere around Nov. 10, hopefully.

I bought the basic model and am waiting for parts to arrive for the lithium 400 and GU upgrades which will be installed before delivery.

[dougbaty]

Originally Posted by Smith101

I'll be getting mine somewhere around Nov. 10, hopefully.

I bought the basic model and am waiting for parts to arrive for the lithium 400 and GU upgrades which will be installed before delivery.

To Smith101: Your bright red Axion looks cute. I have the impression they aren't selling well because of their extreme small size for an RV. It seems you can buy a Travato for the same money. So I was wondering if you were tempted by some very special pricing or free upgrades. Also, I didn't know dealers could install a GU and Li-batts because of all the heavy wiring requirements.

I am hoping to buy a 2017 for low $$ next spring if they are still available then.
DougB

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by dougbaty

Also, I didn't know dealers could install a GU and Li-batts because of all the heavy wiring requirements.

I wondered the same thing because RT has consistently said that their lithium system can't be retrofitted.

But... it may be that all Axions are built with the same wiring thus allowing a good dealer to be able to add it.

[BBQ]

.

I would be worried. Very worried.

ALL dealers, not just RV dealers or RT dealers, are notorious for promising the moon just to get your signature on the dotted line.

[Smith101]

Responses to Mumkin & Dougbaty

It seems like you two are actual prospects for a purchase, so let me give you my best suggestions.

Consider the Axions that are out there now and there are lots of them unsold. There are 60 just on rvt.com and many aren’t listed there, like the 5 at Paul Ebert’s RV in Fresno.

These fall into 2 categories: loaded and basic. The loaded ones usually have solar, GU, lithium 400, and TV. The basics usually have none except solar which seems to be going onto almost all units (and it makes much more sense with AGMs). The loaded Axions generally have msrp around $84k and the basics usually have msrp around $73k.

I have no way of knowing what dealers pay but traditionally they pay 75% of msrp. If that happens to be right, then these loaded Axions cost dealers about $63k and basics cost them about $55k. I got a quote for an in-stock loaded one for $67k from a dealer in Tracy CA.

With these units selling slowly, Hymer has a tough problem. If they drop the price, they have to drop it on all of them. Dealers aren’t going to go below cost unless they are giving up their franchise or have some other other scary circumstance.

So, is there a way to get one below dealer cost? I think so. My deal gave me both the GU and the lithium 400 for $58k. No TV, but I’m guessing iI got about $4-5k below dealer cost. What I did was offer the $58k on a basic unit but conditioned it on getting both the lithium 400 and the GU added. And I made the offer at the Pomona show where there were Hymer people who could authorize a special deal. So Mike Thompson, the dealer, could sell the basic and make a fair profit of $3k or so and Hymer would chip in the upgrades to seal the deal. So Hymer was effectively able to cut the price without cutting it on all of them. But they did so only because they had a definite sale.

I think either of you could do this too. During the Pomona show La Mesa was advertising the basic Axions at $60k. They have a ton of them. You could say to them, “I’ll buy it if you get Hymer to throw in the upgrades”.

Two things help make this possible.

First, all the Axions come with the wiring installed. Even the basics have the switch panel with on/off and reset buttons labeled “lithium batteries”. They are not connected to anything because the AGMs have no BMS. My unit has no TV but the antenna is there, etc.

Second, Hymer’s strategy is not to have dealers do service, but to use independent warranty and service providers. They understand the conflict of interest between sales and service that so worries BBQ. In my case the unit goes to Premier RV, Hymer’s service contractor in this area who will put in the lithiums and the GU. Hymer will send Premier the parts and pay for the install. Then the unit will go back to Mike Thompson for delivery.

So if you are really thinking of getting one, try my strategy. If the dealer won’t go along, you may have to wait for a show where Hymer reps, like Lars Dudek, are present.

There are also some other details you might want to consider.

According to Lars, the next batch of Axions will not have the chassis upgrade. The upgrade was on the first batch since those were originally intended to be built as the more expensive Sonne model. No backup camera, no navigation, no parking sensors, no alloy wheels, no heavy duty hitch, etc. So be careful not to wait too long. The downgrade will lower the price and be a more consistent offering next to the Banff.

When I was at Premier RV (where the photo was taken) owner Tony Pineda showed me a wall full of lithium modules which he rebuilt to conform to the latest spec, version “H”. He said version H has had no failures in his area since introduced. They can’t sell these rebuilds as new but you may see dealers install them in future trade-ins.

On lithium models the solar feeds the auxiliary AGM battery. This week Hymer contractors are all in Vegas for a service seminar, and Tony will find out if a single panel would suffice for the aux AGM. If yes, I may have Tony remove one panel and install a Fantastic Fan.

Also, the flip up table is being left off newer units. It was missing from mine and they agreed to install one.

I don’t expect delivery until after Nov. 9. I’ll post any interesting developments.

Hope this info helps.

[BBQ]

.

Looks like you got it all worked out.

Good strategy.

Good for you !

[Phoebe3]

Great info @Smith101!

[mumkin]

While I was interested in the Axion when it first came out, after seeing it... it doesn't have the storage that I need. Not to mention that the quality isn't up to my standardss. (note the list of what rigs I have owned) Price is not really an issue for me, and my long time dealer will be the first to admit that I am a tough bargainer.

I have zero interest in lithium batteries after my experience with getting probably the first rig of the RT line that had them... and they were never able to get them working so I went back to AGMs. I prefer the tried and true... and they work perfectly for my use.

But two things that I now consider a crucial need is solar and the underhood generator. Wouldn't own a rig without them...

I have actually considered ordering a Sonne as that shower would provide lots of storage area. LOL I do love driving the short promaster... RV as sports car. But I will likely end up with the Activ or SRT.

[MsNomer]

"I do love driving the short promaster... RV as sports car."

We have a self-build on that van. Sometimes I wish it didn't handle so well so MrNomer would slow down. I've never before seen him drive like this.

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by mumkin

While I was interested in the Axion when it first came out, after seeing it... it doesn't have the storage that I need. Not to mention that the quality isn't up to my standardss. (note the list of what rigs I have owned) Price is not really an issue for me, and my long time dealer will be the first to admit that I am a tough bargainer.

I have zero interest in lithium batteries after my experience with getting probably the first rig of the RT line that had them... and they were never able to get them working so I went back to AGMs. I prefer the tried and true... and they work perfectly for my use.

But two things that I now consider a crucial need is solar and the underhood generator. Wouldn't own a rig without them...

I have actually considered ordering a Sonne as that shower would provide lots of storage area. LOL I do love driving the short promaster... RV as sports car. But I will likely end up with the Activ or SRT.

Maybe you should check out the Revel. AGMsx3 and “dual charging” , whatever that is. AGMs can’t really be charged fast enough to justify the separate GU. Beaucoup storage and propane free! Inverter (but not for AC). It’s pretty normal looking without the crazy tires. Maybe?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Smith101

Maybe you should check out the Revel. AGMsx3 and “dual charging” , whatever that is. AGMs can’t really be charged fast enough to justify the separate GU. Beaucoup storage and propane free! Inverter (but not for AC). It’s pretty normal looking without the crazy tires. Maybe?

It would be interesting to see what they mean by "dual charging".

AGMs can be charged quickly, within reason, so it really depends on how much capacity you have in AGM batteries and what the stock alternator will put out. We have found that we can charge our Lifelines at .4C or 40 amps per 100ah of battery without them getting to hot. If you have only 80 amps of wiring capacity (#4 wire) like many vans do, you could go to 200ah on the stock alternator, but it would be hard on it over time, I think. If you have more than 200ah of battery or want to do a faster partial charge of smaller banks (.6C is OK for like 20 minutes), you are then getting into the area where a GU is going to be helpful. We have 440ah of battery and charge at 180amps continuous or 280 amps for a short time. Our GU is wired parallel to the now oversized stock alternator, so we have 530 amps available, but have it turned down with the regulator.

Of course, you also have to remember that with a Balmar regulator on it, a GU is only going to net about 165 amps over time, so folks need to take that into consideration.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Smith101

Maybe you should check out the Revel. AGMsx3 and “dual charging” , whatever that is. AGMs can’t really be charged fast enough to justify the separate GU. Beaucoup storage and propane free! Inverter (but not for AC). It’s pretty normal looking without the crazy tires. Maybe?

Zero interest in a 4WD... and at my age storage for sporting supplies is not a need. LOL

...and the GU is mainly for the dog... if I need to run the AC for an hour or so.

And I like propane... like to cook on gas... and for heat if I'm not plugged in...

[Mofto]

I finally managed to stop by a dealer and take a look - still undecided. I've thought about what some of the folks have been posting here re: size, I think I need to do some longer test drives of the 59g and Aktiv. There are already a lot of photos and videos of the Axion at this point, but I did promise photos, so I tried to take some of areas I haven't seen elsewhere. Sorry, nothing tall nearby to get a shot of the roof and I didn't have a selfi-stick

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts in here, has been a huge help!