Tiniest Hymer Promaster Carrado/Axion

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by jon

...the dealer told us that the Axion had NO insulation....

This blows my mind. There's no way that's going to work, not even in the PNW. I wonder what their rationale was, for cutting that corner? That nobody would find out?

[booster]

Of course the speculation of no insulation is based on what a dealer said, so it could be totally wrong. Dealers are famous for not knowing the products and for using "alternative facts" to steer customers to the products they want to sell the most.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by jharu

Has anyone seen the Banff?

It is the same as the Sunlight at Camping world, but hopefully they have upped their game somewhat as they have done with the Axion. It still has a totally unusable galley.

I googled and it seems that one of the La Mesa locations have one, so they are just starting to show up.

I would love to see the Axion floorplan on the SRT/Activ/Sunlight length Promaster with cabinetry being expanded on both sides of the rear bath. (they could even put in an SRT 5.0 cu ft fridge!!)

[jharu]

Originally Posted by booster

Of course the speculation of no insulation is based on what a dealer said, so it could be totally wrong. Dealers are famous for not knowing the products and for using "alternative facts" to steer customers to the products they want to sell the most.

I actually saw the Axion, and it did not appear to me that there was any sidewall insulation. Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't see any "blown in" insulation.
Has anybody checked it out for themselves (except me)?

[jharu]

Originally Posted by mumkin

It is the same as the Sunlight at Camping world, but hopefully they have upped their game somewhat as they have done with the Axion. It still has a totally unusable galley.

I googled and it seems that one of the La Mesa locations have one, so they are just starting to show up.

I would love to see the Axion floorplan on the SRT/Activ/Sunlight length Promaster with cabinetry being expanded on both sides of the rear bath. (they could even put in an SRT 5.0 cu ft fridge!!)

Yes, I agree 100% with your assessment.
I hate to say this, but the Banff really has the best floorplan.
And I am not sure I need the fancy automated awning and steps.
But the insulation, plumbing, etc. remain a concern.
I will need to check it out when it comes to NorCal

[jharu]

Does anyone actually know what the Axions and Banffs are going for?
[Typically equipped]

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by jharu

Does anyone actually know what the Axions and Banffs are going for?
[Typically equipped]

I did my price-comparison shopping on rvt.com and rvtrader.com. Then I called a couple of places. The lowest priced place wouldn't come down any more, but the next lowest dropped their price below the lowest priced place. I didn't even have to ask.

Looks like the lowest-priced Axion is about $74K (US) and a 2018 Banff is $80K (CDN).

We flew to another state to get our rig. We decided that dealer service sucks anyway so we went for price and figured if we had any problems, we would just pay for them out of pocket, which generally gets you faster (and better) service at a place that is usually closer than your closest dealership.

[jharu]

Looks like the lowest-priced Axion is about $74K (US) and a 2018 Banff is $80K (CDN).

We flew to another state to get our rig. We decided that dealer service sucks anyway so we went for price and figured if we had any problems, we would just pay for them out of pocket, which generally gets you faster (and better) service at a place that is usually closer than your closest dealership.

Thank you @Phoebe3.
That was excellent info

[mumkin]

The Axions are not exactly selling like hotcakes, so I suspect that the numbers are negotiable. The price should be about $70-71K... or less.

The Banff is an unknown since they are just starting to hit the dealers. But at least 15-18% off MSRP

[jharu]

That's good to know. Thanks, @mumkin.
The question is - is it because it is too small, or are there manufacturing defects?

[mumkin]

I would say a bit of both... but mainly that it is really a one person sized RV.

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by jharu

I actually saw the Axion, and it did not appear to me that there was any sidewall insulation. Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't see any "blown in" insulation.
Has anybody checked it out for themselves (except me)?

Yesterday I went to the Pomona show to check out the Axion specifically. There were some very knowledgable factory people there including one named Lars who spoke with a German accent. Lars was very forthcoming in answering my questions.

First of all they claim to have blown in insulation into the sidewalls. I took one for a drive and took it up to 70 on the freeway (smooth pavement) and it was reasonably quiet—easy to converse. So I suspect there was indeed insulation.

Second, Lars admitted solar with ecotrek doesn’t make a lot of sense, but there are people who reflexively want solar so they put it on nearly all units. Of the 4 or 5 Axions on display, all had solar. The problem with ecotrek is that the modules have to be “on” to accept a charge, and when a module is on, the BMS consumes a constant 60 watts. With two modules, that’s 120 watts. When is a 200 watt solar panel going to make more than 120 watts? Almost never!

However, with the non-ecotrek model, the AGM battery is 200 AH and is hooked up to the same 2000w inverter/charger. So it can run the air just like the ecotreks, but for a much shorter period. Discharging the AGM to 50% would yield 1200 watt-hours. 1200 watts is about what the AC consumes, so theoretically you might get an hour ofAC with no other draw, but the rate of discharge would not be good for battery longevity. Still, leaving your pet for 15 minutes with AC on while you make a quick visit to a store is possible.

The chassis 220amp alternator, Lars claimed, still puts out 140 amps at idle. Conceivably that’s enough to power the coach AC as long as there are no other big draws like the chassis AC fans running full blast.

Plus, all of the solar goes into the AGM, and you get coach DC power without turning on one of the 60 watt power burners. So solar with AGM makes much more sense.

With ecotrek, any excess capacity from the chassis alternator never gets to the batteries. Lithiums are fed only by the GU.

Suppose you left your unit sitting with nothing but the fridge on (assume average consumption 40 watts). Suppose the solar added 600 watt hours. 50% of the 200AH AGM is 1200 watt hours, add the 600 from solar to get 1800. Then divide by 40 to get 45 hours of run time from full charge.

With ecotrek, suppose you use just one module. Now you have to add BMS’ 60 watts to the 40 watts to get consumption of 100 watts. Drawing one module to 20% yields 1920 watt hours. Run time is now 1920/100 = 19.2 hours. With two modules, it’s 3840/160 = 24 hours. Advantage AGM.

The ecotreks of course excel for shorter periods of high power draw and will last a lot longer with their high cycle life if you can live with their disadvantages. The AGM is hung under the floor and is replaceable only by a dealer.

With 2 fully charged modules on, you have 4800 watt hours. With nothing else on and not allowing for inverter efficiency loss, draw is 1200 watts (roof AC) + 120 watts for the BMS = 1320. 4800/1320 = 3.6 hours. Advantage ecotrek 400. Lars claimed “about 3 1/2 hours”.

Lack of a fantastic fan is a pretty significant disadvantage. I closed all the windows, turned on the puny bathroom fan, then cracked a side window and felt for airflow. Very little.

Construction in the Axion is definitely low cost. The upper cabinets seem solid enough, but the bed and front armrest are flexy and cheap. Inside fastener screws and wires are not hidden. The flimsy bathroom curtain does not come all the way across to fully enclose for privacy. The roof AC is really loud—you might not be able to sleep with it on. The bathroom sink doesn’t look like it will last. No medicine cabinet.

The chassis upgrade is going away on the Axion although it may be available as a special order. The current chassis batch was intended for the now defunct Sonne and new batches (around next Feb.) will come without, similar to the Banff. Aw, who needs a backup camera anyway?

So how much does it take to buy one of these?

Generally, the ecotrek models are loaded with GU, solar, TV and sticker around $84k. A northern CA dealer quoted me $67k for one of these. Assuming a typical 25% margin, his cost would be around $63k. La Mesa is advertising these at an everyday low price of $70k.

The AGM models lose the TV, ecotrek and GU and usually sticker around $73k. La Mesa advertises these at $60k.

At the show, with manufacturer personnel hanging around to authorize a dealer cost reduction, you may do better. One buyer there bought the “last” available Axion (I got the feeling there was always just one left). It was the $73k stickered AGM model but he is having it retrofit with the ecotrek package which normally adds $8.5k. He paid $58k. Solar but no TV. That suggests that at a show where manufacturers participate you might get the AGM model for as low as $50k. Very tempting.

That would seem a lot of “getting” for what you pay for.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Smith101

... Lars admitted solar with ecotrek doesn’t make a lot of sense, but there are people who reflexively want solar so they put it on nearly all units. ....

By numbers on paper alone, no. But by applied practice, it's good to have solar because it alleviates the need to run the engine when it's either not convenient or simply not do-able.

My husband and I put 300 watts of solar first, assuming we would stay with AGM. Then we put lithium and upgraded the alternator. Then --facepalm-- I started thinking about the numbers.

But I don't regret the solar because it allows for continuous boondocking with no engine noise for many days at a time. What if we park in some remote location and proceed on foot into the backcountry for four days? What are we going to do -- circle back to the rig, run the engine to charge the batteries to keep the fridge powered, and then trek back into the woods to the campsite? That makes no sense.

Having solar also allows less powerful (and cheaper) alternators on retrofits such as ours. That can be useful if one desires to avoid pulling new wiring from the engine.

[booster]

Re Smith101, I think you will need to take a step back on some of your calculations of power availability and recover rates with the AGM battery.

The call the battery 200 amp in the literature, so hopefully is AH and not reserve power like Roadtrek has done on other units.

Running the AC off 200 ah of AGM will be possible for a short time, but likely only if you start with the AGM full. With that kind of load, you are very likely to get a low voltage cutout long before the battery is very much discharged.

On recharging, I don't think you will see 140 amps at idle, at least not for long, unless there is a high idle setting for the engine. The 220 amp alternator would be lucky to get 140 amps continuous at driving speed once it got hot, so I would count on much less average output, likely under 100 amps continuous at idle. We have also found that if you charge at over .4C or 80 amps on a 200ah battery, you will start to get the battery quite hot if you go more than about 30 minutes at a time.

You can't calculate AGM battery recovery rates simply by multiplying amps available and time on charge. You will be relatively accurate from 20% SOC to 70% SOC, but after that the charging will slow way, way, way down. To get an AGM full from 20% to a real 100% will take upwards of 8-10 hours no matter how many amps you can supply due to the tapering. Add to that the fact that you need to get to that totally full state every 7-10 charge cycles, and you have to look at your charging methods and protocols a bit differently. The sales guys will never tell you this, though, and often tout just amps X time.

Of course, with a stock Roadtrek, you won't know how fast you are charging or discharging as they don't come with any real monitoring functions, so that is a good first upgrade or even dealer installed when you get one.

It is interesting that Lars confirmed the 60 watts BMS parasitic per module losses, as we had been lead to believe they had gotten that down quite a bit lower than that. It is pretty bad when you have higher parasitic than you can supply with your solar. 120 amp hours per day for a 200ah module in lost power that probably has 180ah usable. Waste 2/3 or your capacity every 24 hours.

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by booster

Re Smith101, I think you will need to take a step back on some of your calculations of power availability and recover rates with the AGM battery.

The call the battery 200 amp in the literature, so hopefully is AH and not reserve power like Roadtrek has done on other units.

Running the AC off 200 ah of AGM will be possible for a short time, but likely only if you start with the AGM full. With that kind of load, you are very likely to get a low voltage cutout long before the battery is very much discharged.

On recharging, I don't think you will see 140 amps at idle, at least not for long, unless there is a high idle setting for the engine. The 220 amp alternator would be lucky to get 140 amps continuous at driving speed once it got hot, so I would count on much less average output, likely under 100 amps continuous at idle. We have also found that if you charge at over .4C or 80 amps on a 200ah battery, you will start to get the battery quite hot if you go more than about 30 minutes at a time.

You can't calculate AGM battery recovery rates simply by multiplying amps available and time on charge. You will be relatively accurate from 20% SOC to 70% SOC, but after that the charging will slow way, way, way down. To get an AGM full from 20% to a real 100% will take upwards of 8-10 hours no matter how many amps you can supply due to the tapering. Add to that the fact that you need to get to that totally full state every 7-10 charge cycles, and you have to look at your charging methods and protocols a bit differently. The sales guys will never tell you this, though, and often tout just amps X time.

Of course, with a stock Roadtrek, you won't know how fast you are charging or discharging as they don't come with any real monitoring functions, so that is a good first upgrade or even dealer installed when you get one.

It is interesting that Lars confirmed the 60 watts BMS parasitic per module losses, as we had been lead to believe they had gotten that down quite a bit lower than that. It is pretty bad when you have higher parasitic than you can supply with your solar. 120 amp hours per day for a 200ah module in lost power that probably has 180ah usable. Waste 2/3 or your capacity every 24 hours.

Thanks, yes I oversimplified it. The Axions are 2017s and Lars said they were working to reduce BMS consumption. We were talking about the 2017 and there may have been a change already on the 2018. I didn't ask. But your comment does still bolster the case for lithiums somewhat.

As an aside about parasitic losses, Goal Zero support told me their Yeti 3000 (as in 3000 watt hours roughly equivalent to an Ecotrek "250") has almost no parasitic losses on DC in/out and even with the built in 1500 watt inverter on, losses are only 7 watts. Its a different chemistry and max charge input is only 240 watts.

[mumkin]

Great breakdown Smith101... always nice to have a factory person to grill who knows more than the average sales person. LOL

As to the noisy AC... is there any other kind? I've had 3 different ones on three vehicles and couldn't have possibly slept when any of them were running.

Did you ask them about retrofitting a base model fantastic fan or maxxfan? (3 speed, manual open/close)

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Great breakdown Smith101... always nice to have a factory person to grill who knows more than the average sales person. LOL

As to the noisy AC... is there any other kind? I've had 3 different ones on three vehicles and couldn't have possibly slept when any of them were running.

Did you ask them about retrofitting a base model fantastic fan or maxxfan? (3 speed, manual open/close)

No I didn't ask. But the solar would have to come off. So I'm not sure how complicated that would be. On the inside there's plenty of ceiling space. In the show atmosphere I felt like the Mike Thompson people didn't want to talk about anything other than writing a sale. I wish I had asked Lars when I had his attention.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Smith101

Thanks, yes I oversimplified it. The Axions are 2017s and Lars said they were working to reduce BMS consumption. We were talking about the 2017 and there may have been a change already on the 2018. I didn't ask. But your comment does still bolster the case for lithiums somewhat.

As an aside about parasitic losses, Goal Zero support told me their Yeti 3000 (as in 3000 watt hours roughly equivalent to an Ecotrek "250") has almost no parasitic losses on DC in/out and even with the built in 1500 watt inverter on, losses are only 7 watts. Its a different chemistry and max charge input is only 240 watts.

RT has been saying that since day one -- they are going to reduce the drain, they are reducing the drain, they have reduced the drain, and guess what?
the BMS drain is still the same.

About Yeti... don't take the pitch too seriously. If you don't have a BMS, then you won't have BMS drain. LOL

Go to youtube, there are videos explaining why a BMS is needed.
If you have a simple BMS (have larger cell blocks, ie monitoring fewer blocks), then you will have less drains.

There are no free lunches. Not yet.


ps. Thanks for the report on your talk with Lars. Those are very valuable information. THanks again.

[dougbaty]

Yesterday (10/12/17) I got to spend another couple hours kicking the tires on some Axions. [Thanks to a LaMesa "fall RV show" near my house]. The cabinet materials and workmanship are -uh- middling. The fit behind the driver's seat near the roof left a gap big enough to squeeze my little finger in (small gap where cabinet met paneling - not too bad).

The point is that this gap allowed me to see wall insulation. The surface was plastic shiny silvery to the eye and the feel was like bubble wrap when I pushed on it. I think it was the usual material seen in YouTube custom camper conversions. So yes, there is insulation in the walls.

On the plus side, the "chassis upgrade" trailer hitch is first rate. This is added at the Promaster factory. I hope Hymer continues to include this option. The Banff (which looks to be built in the same factory) had an add-on hitch and it suffered by comparison.

When crawling underneath the Axion (or the Banff) I could see 3 battery-sized boxes in addition to the 2 battery boxes. I have no idea what those extra boxes are for, but I speculate that to get more space in these tiny RVs they moved some electronics out of the coach cabinets. Good use of space. Anyone know what these boxes contain?
DougB, Sacto CA

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by dougbaty

...

The point is that this gap allowed me to see wall insulation. The surface was plastic shiny silvery to the eye and the feel was like bubble wrap when I pushed on it. I think it was the usual material seen in YouTube custom camper conversions. So yes, there is insulation in the walls.

...

DougB, Sacto CA

Sounds like Reflectix.

https://www.reflectixinc.com/product...ve-insulation/