Tiniest Hymer Promaster Carrado/Axion

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by samt

I asked the sales guy if you could switch out the small vent with a fantastic fan and didn't get any clear answer. He didn't even look at the roof which I think would be the first consideration.

There is a more stripped down version of the Axion at my local RV dealer that has no solar which could offer more options for fan modifications but you also would lose the underhood generator and lithium batteries with that one. It is $14k cheaper though.

Sales people are usually useless for getting decent answers on technical issues. Ask to speak to someone in the service department about switching out the bathroom fan with a basic Fantastic Fan. (you would probably be limited to the one that doesn't have all the fancy bells and whistles... rain sensors and such... remote controls... all stuff I have never needed anyway) I don't see why it couldn't be switched out.

I looked at the Axion but I need more storage. But... if I had chosen to go with one, I would want the solar and underhood generator. I have both and wouldn't go without them again. That said, I am not a fan of the lithiums, but many love them. Without the solar and GU, you will need to be plugged in at a campground most of the time.

[wincrasher]

I don't really see the value of buying a Hymer if you don't get the Roadtrek tech. That is what differentiates the brand and makes it worth buying. Otherwise, for value, the Travato is hard to beat and will have a much higher residual value should you sell.

Do not buy a van without a ventilator. Either a fantastic fan or a maxxair fan. You must move the air out or it becomes a miserable hotbox. Your dealer could probably install one if there is no roof hole for it, but you will give up space for solar. But you do have the opportunity to place it exactly where you want to maximize the remaining space for solar. You definitely want some solar.

Problem is do you trust your dealer to install these things? It's some major cutting and applying sealant. Easy and straightforward jobs, but you'd be amazed how many would muck it up.

FWIW, Camping World charged me $600 to swap out an ancient fantastic fan with a new MaxxAir deluxe. The hole and power were already there - an hour job max. To cut the hole and run the power probably would double that price.

[Ron J. Moore]

Somehow I feel the offer from Hymer is take it or leave it....next weeks Model hasn't come out yet! Someone mentioned about removing a bath vent for a fantastic type fan...if you could do it, what good is it for the rest of the rig? I don't know about anybody else, but I got everything I wanted, nothing I didn't, and glad I did it my way. If you go for the bottom of the line....that is what you will get - and somewhere you will wish you had opted for other items. To some, all the electronics, solar, diesel are important, and they get what they want. Maybe looking outside the Hymer Brand might work better. Knowing the complaints we hear of the Hymer, and where do you get quality service, Camping World, would raise red flags. Ron

[mumkin]

First off the Carado Axion is NOT a Camping World product. (they only have the Sunlight and will get no other Hymer products per Jim H) Axion is sold by normal Hymer dealers and would thus be working with more dependable service facilities. I would totally trust either of the two dealers in the Minneapolis area to switch out a fan. (both the RT or Hymer dealer are outstanding)

And the Axion is soooooo small (at under 18 feet) that a Fantastic Fan in the bathroom would work perfectly and you wouldn't have to give up the solar.

At the moment there are no special order Axions, they are pretty much all the same to speed up the production time. They told me to check back after the first of year.

[Storysrvwego]

28 Sept 2017 - Congratulations DougB, on your new Axion. EHGNA did a fine job on this one.

I totally share your appreciation of the lack of wild graphics and mechanical fittings on the outside.

The WINNEBAGO Travato 59K shares the same idea here although it does have a couple of LED strip lights up but even they are not all that noticeable when not turned on. the 59K has a TRUMA Combi heat/water system that has the same external black intake & exhaust cap your ALDE equipped Axion has. The 59G has a more traditional propane heating system with the large vent covers as well as a 3 way refrigerator.

I imagine WINNEBAGO will eventually change their Class B models to have the under hood alternator and inverter setup to generate power. James from FITRV had this system retrofitted into his 59G. I do not think he has the equivalent of the nifty HYMER/ROADTREK VoltStart feature but his setup is otherwise pretty similar to what you have on the Axion.

I agree that having a spare tire is best but the holding tank(s) take up that space in these ProMaster based RV's. If you get, or already have a receiver hitch, you could plug in a drop down spare tire mount. Another way is to use the similar drop down mount which can bolt onto the horizontal square tube of the hitch but off to one side. I have seen one of these on an Axion and it is a great addition because you can still out a trailer ball stinger into the receiver if you have something to tow within the capacity of the Axion of course. Everything effects total weight capacity and to a small degree, fuel consumption.

Adding a roof rack on 1500, 2500, 3500 and 3500 EXT RAM ProMaster is easy. Your roof has stud mounts on the roof for this purpose. There are a handful of FIAT DUCATA/Ram Promaster compatible roof racks on the market. Some cater to the commercial industry. Some are oriented toward RV use with accessory mounts. I would go for an RV type. The cross bars on the ones I know of WINNEBAGO'S own current 2017+ design and FIAMMA for example) are nicely adjustable to fit around AC, vent and solar panels that may be bolted to the roof. Roof ladder that complements the WINNEBAGO rack can be used on the rear of the van or down the drivers side which makes it much more convenient not set it near where you need to access versus walking from the rear to where you need to get too. I checked into this at one time and learned that I could order the latest WINNEBAGO rack from dealer parts department. Spendy. Depending on the dealer, something like $1,400 for the rack and $750 for the ladder if my recollection is correct. Shop around. Watch out for dealer service department pricing if you want it installed by them. it does NOT take 5 hours for a dealer to install the new WINNEBAGO Roof Rack and ladder. Even if the bike rack is added, this is still not a 5 hour job.

I am not sure I would bother with a car alarm ut it depends on the individual I suppose. To me, car alarms just tells your vehicle is already compromised, if anyone even pays attention. Or they annoy neighbors and parking lot folks that won't bother to look at yet another false alarm situation. Maybe if it silently notified me on my cell phone except how often is the vehicle parked where it cannot connect to cellular service or Wi-Fi spots?

If I do anything, I will add one forward and two side facing cameras to a solid state drive-equipped DVR bolted somewhere hidden well. At least then I can see who already damaged or stole something, aside from the whole thing being gone. Even then the SS drive might still be recovered since I do these external to the DVR itself. The DVR might go missing but the data is still behind an insulated and paneled wall... thank goodness for solar equipped vans so we can pick a low current consumption DVR w/solid state drive & cameras for non shore power times.

By the way, I have not read about anyone actually having smacked the underhood alternator. I agree it sure looks like it will happen to somebody; more likely those that take the ProMaster (RV or regular) off road. Certainly looks possible with a high parking curb. The skid shield that is coming to market will be a VERY smart thing to add but it won't be cheap. Cheaper than hitting the alternator though and then if the engine block has mounting bolts that get stripped out or engine casting is broken, big $$$ ouch.

Aside from the Travato 59G having the cuts and patches on the exterior you mentioned, you are spot on that the length of the RAM ProMaster 1500, 19 foot-ish used for the Axion is absolutely wonderful for parking everywhere. The 21 ft+ length of the Travato 59G or 59K is still good for this (versus say a 24+ ft and taller Trend) but the Axion length is just about perfect. My wife and I are tall however and the rear bath with long and longer driver side twin beds with center insert works for us. Believe me; we contemplated the Axion long and hard. But the Travato over some other good solutions works for us although the hanging carbureted, no emission limited exhaust genset bugs me a bit. I will do what James/FITRV did someday. The cost of quality Lithium battery(s) makes the heart skip a beat. Both of these fit in our modest height barn or our shop unlike taller and longer models. Bot are great solutions.

Question: I sure would like to know your experience with the waste dump system the Axion is equipped with. I think many people would like to know of this feature and how it works in the real world.

Gene

[mumkin]

I don't think DougB purchased an Axion... his post seemed based on a thorough look at one. I think he was considering?

I don't see how one could put a rack on an Axion roof. It is full - AC, fan, solar panels.

[dougbaty]

"Axion stealthy RV" - 2nd post by DougB (Sacto CA). Gosh, thanks for all the replies and insights. I wondered if anyone would even see my 1st post buried at the end of 5 pages of comments.

So far I haven't purchased any new RV yet; I just liked the Axion's open & social layout (couch close to swivel front seats), short length (17'9"), stealthy appearance, and hi-tech features. Even better, my wife likes it too. So far the sales price is around the same as a discounted Travato, which gives much more for the $$. I'm hoping prices drop soon on some unsold 2017s.

As for stealth, in the past I generally stayed in campgrounds and paid the fees. 25 years ago I parked our van-sized pop-top Sunrader classC (the factory only made a dozen or so) in a Tahoe parking garage next to a casino. When wife&I came out after dinner there was a note on my windshield that said RV weren't allowed to park in their facility. It was a little embarrassing. Since the parking garage ceiling clearance was only 8 feet, I have to wonder if any other RVs had ever parked there!?

Another embarrassing moment came when we drove through a self-pay toll gate and threw in our 3 quarters, only to have an officer risk his life by running in front of our RV and politely request another dime. You see, the Sunrader had dual rear wheels, so the toll charge was a tad higher than that for a van. Since then I only consider RVs with 4 wheels. Oh, and repair garages wouldn't take us because their lifts couldn't handle the duallys.

As for stealth, I guess I just don't want to call attention to myself, whether I am parked in a ski lot or a coffee shop. Blending-in would better hide from potential thieves too (I presume). As for size, I'm only 5'6"; my wife a bit taller. We fit OK in an Axion today, though we were both smaller when we had our pop-top so long ago.
DougB

[Mofto]

This thread has given me a lot to think about, thank you to everyone for your insights. I've become a member to post in this thread.

I'm really interested in the Axion, mostly for the reasons others have written of in this thread: size, layout, and low-profile outward appearance. I like the new Revel, and I've had my eye on the Travato 59G for some time, but the Revel is very expensive and flashy while the 59G may be too big for me and it has a lot of visible hookups - especially on the driver's side. I don't really like the layout of the Ascent or the Agile.

Anyway, there are a couple videos on the Axion on youtube, but I haven't been able to find anything that provides a view of the roof or the undercarriage. I wonder if any of you who have seen it in person may have snapped a photo or two? I would be really grateful if someone could provide a photo, particularly of the roof - the nearest dealer with an Axion in stock is about 3.5 hours away . I think I will go and visit the dealer in the next few weeks, so if nobody has a photo I will try to post one myself eventually. Not really looking forward to visiting as I don't like the sales environment.

I'm really new to RVs, I have only been seriously looking into buying for the past year and a half or so. I've been to shows in Atlantic City and in Utah while I was there for a trip. I mostly am looking for something I can take on weekend trips for cycling (the best roads never seem to be near a hotel) and skiing (somewhat concerned on the winter abilities of the Axion, but after reading a lot on the topic I believe there are some measures that can be taken to prevent tanks freezing, etc). I'm also pretty excited by the prospect of longer trips to visit other parts of America and perhaps Canada - it seems like my friends are very keen to fly off to Europe, which is cool, but we have such an amazing wealth of different places to see here on this continent - very lucky! In the back of my mind I am also thinking I may sell my car then keep the RV to fill a transportation role as well since I use my car somewhat infrequently - which is why I am pretty focused on keeping the size smaller and the profile more discrete for grocery runs or visiting family, etc. I'm also keen to start with something that is a bit smaller and easier to manage and maybe move up to something larger and more complex once I have a better grasp of things.

I had one other question for those who have seen the Axion in person: what mechanism is used to keep the cabinets closed? Have they used the same type of push-in latches that Hymer employs on the Aktiv? I wasn't really able to tell from the videos that are available.

[mumkin]

Are you at all handy? I would assume that you would need to make changes to keep those drawers closed. Even the expensive Roadtrek/Hymer rigs have issues. The owners' Facebook pages have lots of good ideas on fixing them.

What is it that you want to know about the roof and the undercarriage?

I can tell you the roof is pretty full with solar panels in the front, AC in the middle, and fan and vents to the rear. No space for racks or carrying anything.

I wouldn't count on being able to carry water on winter travels. Personally in the winter I carry drinking water, bath wipes, and flush the toilet with RV antifreeze. To keep warm at night, I have a 12v mattress pad (bunk size made for truckers)

(BTW, I use my Roadtrek 170 which is a foot longer than the Axion as my daily driver... it is my only vehicle)

[GeorgeB]

I'm also puzzled by EHNA strategy with their new "cheap" tiny van conversions (Axion/Banff/Sonne) although I welcome the idea that they are testing the market with much needed small and low cost vehicles. The 136" WB Promaster/Fiat Ducato is a challenge in terms of space usage and it is often designed with an open plan like the original Westfalia layout, without a dedicated bathroom/toilet enclosure. See Safari Condo Promaster MX Ram - ProMaster MX


In Europe they build it with the efficient (although very tight) front dinette, mid-ship toilet and back tranverse bed/cargo storage (see short Amundsen Westfalia Expedition build)




More photos of that rugged (almost military style) 4x4, 136" WB Fiat Ducato Off-Road Amundsen: https://centrelab.smugmug.com/PERSO-...Gn/i-kQWjkkj/A

You have to decide between gear roofs racks and solar with such a small real estate but Solar/Fantastic fan/AC is easily achievable on this platform (Photo of a Safari Condo MX roof missing the AC option at the back)



Apart from design/layout opinions, the question remains how are these Hymer tiny vans are build. Haven't seen one but judging from the Aktiv I saw in May they need to get German quality control on the assembly line. It was always a problem at Roadtrek in recent years because they franticly want to grab percentage point of the market share instead of building a reputation. Hope Hymer Europe is reading this.

[GeorgeB]

I never had a chance to see the type of layout you find in the Axion.

Mercedes Benz did a cut-out mock-up a few years ago to promote the Sprinter as an RV platform with the same plan based on locating the bathroom at the back of the van like the Travato K but with the Kitchen galley on the "right" side.

Apart from limited storage and awkward access to the bathroom at night it is an interesting option to free up the space in a small vehicle and keep a enclosed bathroom area.








Hymer just presented a concept vehicle called DuoCar on the Sprinter platform at the Düsseldorf Caravan Salon that uses the space in the same way but with a much more refined interior design. Why do we always get the cheap crappy designs in North America? OK, we have much nicer campgrounds and National Parks, which is the most important thing!

More on the Camper Vans FB page https://www.facebook.com/campervans....51692208193494








.

[mumkin]

That looks to me like a luxury version of the Carado Axion... same floor plan.

[Storysrvwego]

5 Oct -
Good luck on your final choice Doug. As I think you have already seen on this forum by now, HYMER Activ now has a 2.0 model which increases the overall length with a larger rear bed as noted elsewhere on this forum now.

Re the roof rack; I would be truly surprised if there was an issue adding the current design WINNEBAGO type rack. While the shorter Axion "1.0"has a rather busy roof, my recollection is that equipment placement would not interfere with this RV-type rack. Using the rack to put other things on the roof on the other hand, would have some issues. Kayak bracket option to semi-hang over the side I think should work. In my case, I have no interest in lugging anything up or down to/from the higher roof of these RV's. My sole interest in adding a rack next year is for cleaning and maintenance. And instead of a rear door mounted ladder, the Winnebago ladder can be quickly detached from the rear and placed down the driver side of the van with it's over the side rail hooks. Anyway, check it out before buying. No expert or exacting information here but I am pretty sure you can use the WB roof rack developed middle of 2017. I have acquired parts pricing from three different dealers so do your homework. If you need to carry more, you may need to think about a Class C. That of course negates many of the benefits of the Class B's, like easier parking, especially compared with the Ram 1500 used with Axion 1.0 versus the 3500 EXT I think is the platform for the 2.0. Pros and cons everywhere, not to mention budget.

I have seen comments on the ventilation fans used on some of the HYMER models. Real estate on the roof is simply at a premium, particularly on the shorter vans with the solar option. This is one of those pick your battle thingys.

I suspect the smaller fan may provide sufficient air transfer versus the larger units that we always see on Class C and A rigs with the latter sometimes having more than one. I admit my mind says I should have the larger and more deluxe vent fan or both. It would be interesting to know how the small round fan-only has performed in the field. Given the cubic feet of these vans, ample windows and sliding door, perhaps the one little fan in various environments and shower & appliance for two-ish people's typical use is good enough.

On another note, HYMER of North America has made some changes to their web site that include some stunning pictures but more importantly, a couple of additions to the Support tab. For example, I see that visitors can now download an Owners Manual. I haven't downloaded the 5mb file yet to see what it really contains but it is likely going to be an asset for some prospective buyers. For new owners taking their first trips and left the manual at home, access to this manual might be very helpful too. And of course as used models come to market that are missing the manual, this should be helpful to those buyers too. Thanks Jim Hammond or whoever in the EHGNA team did that. Even this little change to me, shows active efforts are in play to be a more competitive player in the North American market.

Gene

Originally Posted by dougbaty

"Axion stealthy RV" - 2nd post by DougB (Sacto CA). Gosh, thanks for all the replies and insights. I wondered if anyone would even see my 1st post buried at the end of 5 pages of comments.

So far I haven't purchased any new RV yet; I just liked the Axion's open & social layout (couch close to swivel front seats), short length (17'9"), stealthy appearance, and hi-tech features. Even better, my wife likes it too. So far the sales price is around the same as a discounted Travato, which gives much more for the $$. I'm hoping prices drop soon on some unsold 2017s.

As for stealth, in the past I generally stayed in campgrounds and paid the fees. 25 years ago I parked our van-sized pop-top Sunrader classC (the factory only made a dozen or so) in a Tahoe parking garage next to a casino. When wife&I came out after dinner there was a note on my windshield that said RV weren't allowed to park in their facility. It was a little embarrassing. Since the parking garage ceiling clearance was only 8 feet, I have to wonder if any other RVs had ever parked there!?

Another embarrassing moment came when we drove through a self-pay toll gate and threw in our 3 quarters, only to have an officer risk his life by running in front of our RV and politely request another dime. You see, the Sunrader had dual rear wheels, so the toll charge was a tad higher than that for a van. Since then I only consider RVs with 4 wheels. Oh, and repair garages wouldn't take us because their lifts couldn't handle the duallys.

As for stealth, I guess I just don't want to call attention to myself, whether I am parked in a ski lot or a coffee shop. Blending-in would better hide from potential thieves too (I presume). As for size, I'm only 5'6"; my wife a bit taller. We fit OK in an Axion today, though we were both smaller when we had our pop-top so long ago.
DougB

[InterBlog]

Two B or not two B? That is the question...

Yeah, I thought I'd start off by inspiring some booing. Anyway, slightly a propos of this thread, but directly relevant to many previous ones that I've read, I recommend that anyone considering a micro-van think very carefully about the logistics. I understand the single-traveler scenario. I understand cost consciousness. But giving up a bathroom for the sake of a shorter van?? Giving up kitchen counters? Stuff like that?

One of the primary concerns seems to be "fitting into parking lots". Well, at 23.5 feet including hitch carrier, I fit into parking lots three ways: (1) by parking in end-to-end spaces, (2) by parking diagonally, and (3) by overhanging my tail if the situation requires me to really put forth that kind of effort. If I need to consume more than one spot, out of politeness I simply go to a portion of the lot where there are not many cars. Not once in three years of ownership has anyone fussed at me for doing any of these things, and I often use our rig much like a daily driver, so I've been in every type of parking lot known to consumers. Hardware stores, grocery stores, doctors offices, office buildings, anything.

You can see that my shorty cousin, Mr. PW Ascent beside me here in this two B photo below, has taken great pride in his ability to fit into a single Cracker Barrel spot (we were both Crackerdocking earlier this week and then both moved our rigs toward the head of the lot to get breakfast). He fits into a single spot, but at what price? The parking lot was empty. Generally, it doesn't matter. I've never had a single person care about how I park. It may look a bit funny for me to be diagonal like that, but the important thing is that my tail doesn't stick into the lane of travel.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Two B or not two B? That is the question...

Yeah, I thought I'd start off by inspiring some booing. Anyway, slightly a propos of this thread, but directly relevant to many previous ones that I've read, I recommend that anyone considering a micro-van think very carefully about the logistics. I understand the single-traveler scenario. I understand cost consciousness. But giving up a bathroom for the sake of a shorter van?? Giving up kitchen counters? Stuff like that?

One of the primary concerns seems to be "fitting into parking lots". Well, at 23.5 feet including hitch carrier, I fit into parking lots three ways: (1) by parking in end-to-end spaces, (2) by parking diagonally, and (3) by overhanging my tail if the situation requires me to really put forth that kind of effort. If I need to consume more than one spot, out of politeness I simply go to a portion of the lot where there are not many cars. Not once in three years of ownership has anyone fussed at me for doing any of these things, and I often use our rig much like a daily driver, so I've been in every type of parking lot known to consumers. Hardware stores, grocery stores, doctors offices, office buildings, anything.

You can see that my shorty cousin, Mr. PW Ascent beside me here in this two B photo below, has taken great pride in his ability to fit into a single Cracker Barrel spot (we were both Crackerdocking earlier this week and then both moved our rigs toward the head of the lot to get breakfast). He fits into a single spot, but at what price? The parking lot was empty. Generally, it doesn't matter. I've never had a single person care about how I park. It may look a bit funny for me to be diagonal like that, but the important thing is that my tail doesn't stick into the lane of travel.

..........

Two B or not two B? great question we faced in 2013, chose the 20’ Sprinter for conversion, all utilities except inside shower and we love it. Open view from inside was our primary objective eliminating all tall structures. If we don’t have hitch Stowaway attached any parking is good, with Stowaway we tend to drive back into a parking spot.

I tour this van today, great but claustrophobic for us. Voyager ZS - Globe-Traveller - For Everybody Who Loves Travelling, shower was overwhelming, but, nice features and superb fit and finish for €65K.

[jon]

We visited a Hymer dealer this last weekend that had a Axion beside a Aktiv outside. The Axion finish materials were not nearly as nice as the more expensive Aktiv, but more importantly the dealer told us that the Axion had NO insulation. If I were thinking about purchasing one I would find out.

Jon

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

One of the primary concerns seems to be "fitting into parking lots". Well, at 23.5 feet including hitch carrier, I fit into parking lots three ways: (1) by parking in end-to-end spaces, (2) by parking diagonally, and (3) by overhanging my tail if the situation requires me to really put forth that kind of effort. .... It may look a bit funny for me to be diagonal like that, but the important thing is that my tail doesn't stick into the lane of travel.

Just thought I'd share this. Notice all the empty parking spaces? Notice how we parked so that we hung over into the (at that time) empty space behind us to avoid sticking out into the driving lane? Notice how the person driving the crew cab full size pickup, who could have parked ANYWHERE, didn't CARE if they blocked the driving lane? Face-palm.

[Smith101]

A factory chatperson on the Caradorv.com website told me the
Axion did have "blown-in" insulation.

[jharu]

Thanks to this thread, I was able to go down to SeeGrins and see the Axion for myself.
I have never owned a Class B before, but I have had a Casita for years.

My first impressions were:
- The floor plan is actually *great*. The rear bath does wonders. No need for outside shower. Also, will probably help with mold and mildew.
The number of nozzles and showerheads on the Travato 59K is borderline ridiculous. This one had an optimized design
- If you have a van with rear doors, and you are unable to walk right through the van (as in the Roadtrek Simplicity SRT), I don't quite see the point
- I liked the fact that the awning was manual. An electric awning would be yet another thing that would break
- **Loved** the fact that it had an underhood generator. The Travato has a separate generator - yet another thing to maintain - and it increases weight and reduces space
- Ulta short. Fits on my driveway. Easy to drive, easy to park.

My biggest concerns were:
a) The bed is waaaaaaaaaaaaay small. That means it is really for one person and for a weekend only. That also means reduced resale value
b) The driver's seat is just awful! The driver's console is terrible! But I guess that would be the case with any Ducato/Promaster
c) Extremely low ground clearance. What is worse is that it looked like some parts of the coach hang below the lowest point of the rear axle
d) This has less insulation than my Casita.
e) And yes, some of the bad manufacturing that we saw on a YouTube video have been addressed (shower curtain, shower stall plastic), but the quality of manufacturing of my Casita seems light years ahead

Obviously, the size of this thing eliminates it for me.
Has anyone seen the Banff?

[jharu]

Wow! That's something I did not know.
It did not appear to me that it had blown in insulation.
I'll go down to SeeGrins and check it out for myself