Tiniest Hymer Promaster Carrado/Axion

[kite_rider]

Originally Posted by kmrotterdam

Just re-reading your post, not sure if you meant to put smiley faces to show you were kidding: "I'll take your new lithiums setup and buy you some AGM to replace ..." take out a $9K option for a couple of AGMs lol

I was 'half joking' since you never know what people are thinking. This seemed to be a concern for you. Despite all of the harsh posts on Hymer's Lithium solution, I'm guessing it's not really that bad. Or you could probably hack it and fix the warts. I think you'll probably enjoy the van no matter what route you take; most important is to determine that the quirky layout is right for you.

Would I pay $9K for it? Hell no!

As an aside, I find it ironic that people just can't wait to get a similar solution on a new Travato; yet few are excited about it on the Axion (or Banff or other Hymer models..).

[silex840]

Well the Travato has the L-trim version running at 48v coming out in a month or two on the 59K and 59G, but that’s a $30k MSRP. Reports on preorders getting the option for $20k is trickling in, but that’s still a third of the price of an Axion. I don’t know about you guys, but I won’t spend that kind of money on something with quality issues in other places to begin with. Let’s not beat around the bush here. Low end brands like Carrado are best bought as a base trim model and I am a firm believer of that. The Axion is bottom of the barrel, but hey it’s good enough for me and it’s good enough for you and that’s okay! Let’s just accept it for what it is and realize that in life it’s okay to have something that is good enough!

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by silex840

Well the Travato has the L-trim version running at 48v coming out in a month or two on the 59K and 59G, but that’s a $30k MSRP. Reports on preorders getting the option for $20k is trickling in, but that’s still a third of the price of an Axion. I don’t know about you guys, but I won’t spend that kind of money on something with quality issues in other places to begin with. Let’s not beat around the bush here. Low end brands like Carrado are best bought as a base trim model and I am a firm believer of that. The Axion is bottom of the barrel, but hey it’s good enough for me and it’s good enough for you and that’s okay! Let’s just accept it for what it is and realize that in life it’s okay to have something that is good enough!

There are no reports of any issues with the Volta lithium battery system that is being used in the Travato in any of the vehicles where it is installed so I don’t know about “something with quality issues in other places to begin with”. I wouldn’t equate the lithium battery issues seen in other places with the potential for quality issues with the Volta system. Comparing apples and oranges. One was developed by a van company with no experience in electronics and one was developed by a company with experience in automotive electronics and lithium battery systems.

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by kmrotterdam

Thanks. I also read and heard from various sources that the new Axions will not have the upgraded chassis, so I'm definitely buying one with the upgrades. I'm toying with the idea of waiting til the Hershey show (there were some good deals on Axions last year), but it's a gamble, b/c you never know what'll be there. At the moment, I'd be happy paying $67K at the of this month for an Axion with all the options.

Here in CA there are plenty of loaded Axions you can buy for $67k. One dealer is only asking $65. I imagine you’ll find the same back east.

[Smith101]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

There are no reports of any issues with the Volta lithium battery system that is being used in the Travato in any of the vehicles where it is installed so I don’t know about “something with quality issues in other places to begin with”. I wouldn’t equate the lithium battery issues seen in other places with the potential for quality issues with the Volta system. Comparing apples and oranges. One was developed by a van company with no experience in electronics and one was developed by a company with experience in automotive electronics and lithium battery systems.

Well, the no experience people seem to have at least achieved some reliability though efficiency issues remain. For me, I just want to keep the dog cool for an hour or so, not overnite AC. Even using the inverter, electric cooking appliances I’ve never used more than half my capacity overnite even with the high overhead losses. Those better systems are beyond my needs.

[kite_rider]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

There are no reports of any issues with the Volta lithium battery system that is being used in the Travato in any of the vehicles where it is installed so I don’t know about “something with quality issues in other places to begin with”. I wouldn’t equate the lithium battery issues seen in other places with the potential for quality issues with the Volta system. Comparing apples and oranges. One was developed by a van company with no experience in electronics and one was developed by a company with experience in automotive electronics and lithium battery systems.

I expect the Volta system will actually exceed most people's needs, and that's great. As I had mentioned in other threads, if I were building a new van; I'd do almost exactly what Volta is doing with the 48V kit. I think the new Travato still has propane and the Truma heating system. I would use all the extra power from the lithium batteries for water heat and vehicle fuel for space heat to simplify the overall design. But that's just me. I'm looking forward to the time when we can get all the 48V system components we need from Amazon. I don't think that is too far off..

[silex840]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

There are no reports of any issues with the Volta lithium battery system that is being used in the Travato in any of the vehicles where it is installed so I don’t know about “something with quality issues in other places to begin with”. I wouldn’t equate the lithium battery issues seen in other places with the potential for quality issues with the Volta system. Comparing apples and oranges. One was developed by a van company with no experience in electronics and one was developed by a company with experience in automotive electronics and lithium battery systems.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn’t insulting the Volta system. I think it’s the best system out there. I was merely stating that the base model of the Axion is good enough and I don’t recommend anyone paying an extra $10,000+ above base to get all these added options. Paying $6000 or $9000 alone for the lithiums especially in a poorly designed system is highway robbery. I used the Volta in comparison because I don’t think it makes sense to pay an extreme amount of money for the best charging system whereas all the supporting systems are not up to speed like they are not in the Axion. I’m a strong believer in getting the base trim and building it out over time to meet your specific needs. It is well documented that the implementation of lithium in the Corrado brand is subpar at best. I am with @kite_rider though in that if someone is willing to trade me my system for theirs but no added cost then why not? also half joking…

Originally Posted by kite_rider

I expect the Volta system will actually exceed most people's needs, and that's great. As I had mentioned in other threads, if I were building a new van; I'd do almost exactly what Volta is doing with the 48V kit. I think the new Travato still has propane and the Truma heating system. I would use all the extra power from the lithium batteries for water heat and vehicle fuel for space heat to simplify the overall design. But that's just me. I'm looking forward to the time when we can get all the 48V system components we need from Amazon. I don't think that is too far off..

I would too. Volta sells aftermarket kits now. Check it out:
https://voltapowersystems.com/indust...orage-rv/#kits

Not sure pricing though, but perhaps we can extrapolate from the Travato’s 10kWh set up. Travato’s with Volta are preselling for $110-120k which is over twice that I paid. I just don’t see the total package value as I’d rather piece meal it. I think you’ll understand this concept, because your approach appears similar.

[gregmchugh]

My only point was that some people will see all the issues that have happened with the Ecotrek batteries as an indication that lithium batteries are more prone to issues than standard AGM batteries which is not a reasonable assumption in my view. Lithiums are not something for everyone, at least not until the price comes down, but a well designed lithium battery system is reliable and provides significant advantages over AGM batteries.

I understand completely that they are not for everyone...

[wincrasher]

I'm very spoiled. I've gotten a taste of what it's like to use electricity out on the road as you would at home, without any concerns of running out. I'm looking forward to getting my new van with the Volta system and I think it's worth every penny. In fact, it's the best value out there considering the capability you get.

I doubt I'll even run the air conditioning much. But I will run the heating system and water heating on electric off the inverter without concern, as well as us the microwave and induction cooktop (portable), my toaster and my coffee machine. Luxury like this is wonderful!

As far as the rest of the RV goes, I've had excellent experience with Winnebago and Travatos in particular. It's by far the best value out there for features, fit and finish. Granted, it's not a rolling masterpeice of fine hardwood joinery. But it's certainly serviceable and thousands of owners are out there beating on them without many issues. I certainly don't have any issues with my dealer getting support from WGO and addressing any problems I might have. If past is any indicator, I won't see my dealer again until I'm ready for van #5, in probably 2-3 years.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

My only point was that some people will see all the issues that have happened with the Ecotrek batteries as an indication that lithium batteries are more prone to issues than standard AGM batteries which is not a reasonable assumption in my view. Lithiums are not something for everyone, at least not until the price comes down, but a well designed lithium battery system is reliable and provides significant advantages over AGM batteries.

I understand completely that they are not for everyone...

Lithiums just have a different set of quirks that require compensations, than AGMs do. Of course they also offer some different benefits, and downsides, too. The cost consequences of something going wrong are substantially higher with lithium.

As stated litium isn't necessarily for everyone or every application.

[wincrasher]

Not sure pricing though, but perhaps we can extrapolate from the Travato’s 10kWh set up. Travato’s with Volta are preselling for $110-120k which is over twice that I paid. I just don’t see the total package value as I’d rather piece meal it. I think you’ll understand this concept, because your approach appears similar.

Considering I got mine for $102k including tax/tag, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Compare to the price I got on an Aktiv 1.0 for $98k (incl tax) with around 40% of the battery, no 48v and Voltstart with questionable reliability/functionality.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I'm very spoiled. I've gotten a taste of what it's like to use electricity out on the road as you would at home, without any concerns of running out. I'm looking forward to getting my new van with the Volta system and I think it's worth every penny. In fact, it's the best value out there considering the capability you get.

I doubt I'll even run the air conditioning much. But I will run the heating system and water heating on electric off the inverter without concern, as well as us the microwave and induction cooktop (portable), my toaster and my coffee machine. Luxury like this is wonderful!

Do I hear an echo? I've been saying that for 3-1/2 years with derision or not necessary from many here. The Volta system may be the future in lithiums but even Advanced RV told us that unless you need air conditioning most of the time it may be overkill. They currently have three lithium systems as they term them good, better and best at relatively increasing prices. My now just "good" system with Elite Power Solutions 800ah of batteries has fulfilled what you wish to achieve.

I'm still investigating whether I will need the "best" Volta system but will definitely go to the "better" system with LiFeMgPo4 batteries. At least I think so at this time but could change my mind. I'm a "best" kind of guy.

[kmrotterdam]

Hopefully, I'll be able to negotiate down to $67K for a loaded Axion, because I can't find any dealers on the east coast with prices like that. I am going to see one tomorrow at a dealer in Maryland, and their "sale" price is $77K. I might have to drive to Iowa, as they have some for $69K.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by silex840

I’ll have to poke around and figure out what solar charge controller that is.


Unfortunately on second look it’s the switch that’s relocatable and not the LCD screen. Look at the last photo on the last page which makes it more clear. So back to the drawing board. We will still need an aftermarket SOC gauge.

I am confused, you guys both got vans with solar panels on the roof but no solar controller installed? How did they manage to do this twice???

In any case, the solar controller that was getting installed for the last few years was the Epsolar BN series 30 amp model with two of them installed for the larger solar set up. Here is a link to the model that Erwin Hymer North America has been using but they could have changed. This model uses the MT50 remote display. Any idea of how many watts of solar you have? There is a 40 amp model also.

Tracer1215BN/ Tracer2215BN/ Tracer3215BN/ Tracer4215BN-Products-solar charge controller—Beijing Epsolar Technology Co., Ltd

[silex840]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Considering I got mine for $102k including tax/tag, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Compare to the price I got on an Aktiv 1.0 for $98k (incl tax) with around 40% of the battery, no 48v and Voltstart with questionable reliability/functionality.

I extrapolated from the Travato thread from last I read where buyers of the non-L trim were paying around $90k Pre-TTL. Plus the $20k for the Volta option puts it at $110k so my reasoning is sound. The fact you paid less doesn’t immedialty discount my math, but it does tell me the price is much better than originally anticipated! If anything, I will consider a 59KL as my next class B in a few years.

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I am confused, you guys both got vans with solar panels on the roof but no solar controller installed? How did they manage to do this twice???

In any case, the solar controller that was getting installed for the last few years was the Epsolar BN series 30 amp model with two of them installed for the larger solar set up. Here is a link to the model that Erwin Hymer North America has been using but they could have changed. This model uses the MT50 remote display. Any idea of how many watts of solar you have? There is a 40 amp model also.

Tracer1215BN/ Tracer2215BN/ Tracer3215BN/ Tracer4215BN-Products-solar charge controller—Beijing Epsolar Technology Co., Ltd

Appreciate the link! @kite_rider linked me to the same on to purchase on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/SolarEpic-Sol.../dp/B00ZV3I6OI

So the 30A model must be the one! One mistake I can understand but two mistakes means a trend. It might be safe to say all the base models came like this. Why is anyone’s best guess. It comes with two panels of 100w or 200w total.

[kite_rider]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I am confused, you guys both got vans with solar panels on the roof but no solar controller installed? How did they manage to do this twice???

I'm now pretty sure that the controller is the solar 'upgrade' option. I guess Hymer wanted to keep it simple for the dealers. But now all of us consumers know that you can save money and just buy the controller on Amazon do a self install for less.

My dealer was so confused (and nice) that they put the controller in for me free of charge after we bought the rig. But in our defence, they actually thought the system was complete when they sold it to us.

@Silex, I too am bummed that the LCD from the inverter is no easily relocated. It's a cool display to look at; just too bad it's buried under the seat. I'll probably go with the MT-50 for now and may install a shunt system when I upgrade my AGM. (That's if I don't get a cheap EcoTrek battery in the mean time ). Oh, and I can also confirm that if you leave the inverter on and microwave plugged in overnight it will indeed drain the 'stock' agm house battery. Mine went from 12.4V when I turned on to 10.8V mid morning.

[wincrasher]

Repeating anecdotes is not sound reasoning.

WGO products sell for 27-30% off MSRP. Their scheme is to price the options with the same margin. So they are applying it to the lithium package just the same.

This is all common knowledge and has been their practice for many years.

[EdSoCal1]

Looking through Travato posts, they have plenty of reliability issues too.

[silex840]

Originally Posted by EdSoCal1

Looking through Travato posts, they have plenty of reliability issues too.

I feel that with any RV or even boat manufacturers that attempts mass production, this will be an issue since assembly line work for these types of products can't be automated nor make use of robots like an assembly line moving between workers can versus like where skilled workers move between stations. Hymer/Roadtrek/Carrado as well as Winnebago will have slight (or even large) variations between the quality of the final product because of this.

[EdSoCal1]

I've read all 30+ pages of posts, but being a newbie, I hope someone doesn't mind clarifying my 4 questions below about the Axion. I'm looking at solo RVing for a bit, tho my son, gf and toddler might use it once in awhile, but since they've done tent camping, maybe they could make this work for them. The Travato seems a fit too, but I don't need the extra length if I just end up with a wetbath anyway. And the Sprinter based RVs sound like a typical Mercedes high expense maintenance, otherwise, the Winnie Era 70M with drybath and slideout looks awesome. Feel free to shoot holes in my logic, you all know much more than me on this.

1) A/C Generator: Running the A/C off a generator is fine by me. On the Axion, would that be the underhood generator powered by the RV engine? And can it also power the Microwave oven, but probably not both A/C and Microwave?

2) Propane: Alde furnace/water heater and Stove

3) The standard AGM batteries power which items? Refrigerator via DC voltage? No alternative power source (no propane) for refrigerator? TV?

4) Does having solar really do much for the AGM batteries that running the underhood generator for half hour wouldn't do?

Thanks