New? Hymer Travato 59k knockoff "Sunlight"

[Bruceper]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Thanks for the quotes.

It is fair.

>I don't go into McDonalds expecting the kid at the counter to be able to answer nutritional questions.

Nope, but that kid can reach under the counter and provide the customer the nutritional information handout that they have on site. I would expect that Camping World would have the same.

[GeorgeRa]

I would say these quotes are “interesting” ramblings by the company CEO. Devaluing his own distribution channel, let’s just see for how long Hymer will go with this type of approach.

While being in the Camping World a couple of weeks ago I asked about the new Sunlight, the sales person was very polite and lack of information I would squarely place on the Hymer/Rodtrek management team not the Camping World Co.

What caught my attention me was the wavy ceiling which at first I thought was a shipping protecting cardboard but it was not, after the CEO advertising inexperienced design team and 45 min. labor time I am not surprised. I think if you want cost reduction while retainig quality you need an experienced design team. 45 min labor as a design goal, how about the manufacturing cost target, but for that he would need an experience team - a self inflicted shot in the foot.

[booster]

All those statements sounded very much to me like someone who got told he had to produce a low end product and manufacture it cheaply, plus sell it at CW. As was mentioned, it is amazing he is still there with all the grief he has caused, and now badmouthing his own product, dealers, and customers.

[Viperml]

Originally Posted by booster

All those statements sounded very much to me like someone who got told he had to produce a low end product and manufacture it cheaply, plus sell it at CW. As was mentioned, it is amazing he is still there with all the grief he has caused, and now badmouthing his own product, dealers, and customers.

That is true. I do think Hymer will get rid of him when they can. He probably had a good attorney that put in a clause that he gets to run the North American operation for a certain time before he can be let go.

Also, I would blame CW. If I owned a business (CW) there is no way I would sell something that expensive and not have any training on it or know anything about it. I am shocked CW did not have those things put in writing into their agreement. Hymer made out on that as I think CW got shafted as far that goes.

[mumkin]

The part that I find really odd about this unit is the decision to put the lithium batteries in it. If you want a low price point and a simple to use and maintain unit, wouldn't you use a tried and true simple AGM system? One of the old bullet proof Roadtrek systems used over the last 30 years?

And also if you have a dealer that will have little ability to understand/explain and deal with the problems of the Ecotrek system, aren't you opening a Pandora's Box?

I wonder if that is the source of the reported "recall of all these units" by Camping World.

Also odd from JH is the definitive statement that CW will NEVER sell Hymer... when they are selling a "Hymer"

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by Viperml

That is true. I do think Hymer will get rid of him when they can. He probably had a good attorney that put in a clause that he gets to run the North American operation for a certain time before he can be let go.

I (fortunately) don't have a lot of experience with lawyers, but it seems like Hymer should be able to pay him his remaining salary and say goodbye or at least pay him and give him instructions he is no longer allowed to talk to the public or customers. They have a very strong case that he's been reckless and destructive to their brands.

[JeanM]

So I received a voicemail this evening from a CW rep informing me that it has an LP generator. 3500 watt.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by JeanM

So I received a voicemail this evening from a CW rep informing me that it has an LP generator. 3500 watt.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by JeanM

So I received a voicemail this evening from a CW rep informing me that it has an LP generator. 3500 watt.

LOL... that is hilarious...

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by JeanM

So I received a voicemail this evening from a CW rep informing me that it has an LP generator. 3500 watt.

You should ask him about the Flux Capacitor too.
I bet he will tell you it is also 3500 watts.

[GeorgeRa]

LPG generator should be OK, just one digit off 2500W versus 3500W. I have to disagree with the flux capacitor, completely different application but most likely good for Jim Hammill to keep his back job in the future.

[femike99]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I would say these quotes are “interesting” ramblings by the company CEO. ...

What caught my attention me was the wavy ceiling which at first I thought was a shipping protecting cardboard but it was not, after the CEO advertising inexperienced design team and 45 min. labor time I am not surprised. I think if you want cost reduction while retainig quality you need an experienced design team. 45 min labor as a design goal, how about the manufacturing cost target, but for that he would need an experience team - a self inflicted shot in the foot.

First of all, I'm new this forum, so thank you for accepting me in. We have travel trailer and are likely to trade it in for a Class B by the end of summer.

I spent about a 1/2 hour on the phone yesterday with Roadtrek/Hymer inside technical sales. My call was about the Aktiv .

First off, he was incredibly accommodating with his time and very open. He also admitted to some quality problems with the Aktiv. I had been to a dealer the day before and noticed several fit and finish problems in the interior.

As an early adopter of many new things (IBM PC 1982, Honda Prelude 4 wheel steer 1989, MacBook 1994 to name a few) I've learned to accept initial quality problems for new tech as long as the mfg'r has a long term reliability track record. He admitted to this and promised that the dealer and the factory would fix. He also commented that as more Hymers are being made, the better they are getting quality wise (again part of the learning curve for a new product).

The dealer (Colton RV, not a Camping World affiliate) also knew little about the Hymer Aktiv even though they are a well respected RV dealer in Upstate NY.

IMHO - what is being experienced by Roadtrek (a trusted brand) is that they've been taken over by a European company and trust into a product line and been asked to make a work quickly.

Given this, I think it's reasonable that the dealers are weak in product knowledge, but unlike other products with initial quality problems, I'm a little more suspect of a $60k or $100k product with initial quality problems. If we do decided to go for an Aktiv or Sunlight, it is only because I can drive 2 hours directly to the factory (and by pass the dealer) for repair.

[mumkin]

It seems that you are unaware of all the history of the last few years. Roadtrek's quality control had really fallen in the years since its purchase by an investment company - during the big crash in RV sales in 2008. It was all about producing as many units as possible in the shortest time possible. And quality showed it. Lots and lots of quality control issues. Then they brought in all this high tech stuff (lithium, underhood generator, voltstart) and sold it to the public who got to be Beta Testers with no warning or compensation for the inconveniences and problems it caused. Pay the big bucks and get a unit that doesn't work as advertised.

Hymer, a well respected European RV company - in fact the largest - wanted to break into the North American market. They started out with an American company that didn't work out and then started negotiating with Roadtrek. Originally the story from Jim Hamill was that RT was merely going to build the Hymer models for them... but soon the facts came out and Hymer had purchased them.

We Roadtrek owners have been very hopeful that Hymer's good reputation on quality control in Europe would start to fix the problems at the Roadtrek factory. So far... it is a very slow process but I haven't completely given up hope yet, as I am also interested in either the Activ or Sonne.

Hymer made the decision to start their own dealer line. Some also handle Roadtrek, but many, if not most, do not. Camping World is NOT a Hymer dealer, and Hamill has stated that it never would be. The Sunlight is a stripped down model just for Camping World to try to bring first time young purchasers into the market. No Hymer dealer will sell it, and Camping World will get no other Hymer produced model at the moment.

The Activ will only be available to Hymer dealers. They are found on the gohymer website.

As to uninformed sales people... that is a constant in the RV business. Most seem to have little idea of what they are selling. They have a partial excuse that they are selling many different models and companies. I have a very good dealer in MN for Roadtrek, I don't know the new Hymer dealer... yet

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by femike99

First of all, I'm new this forum, so thank you for accepting me in. We have travel trailer and are likely to trade it in for a Class B by the end of summer.

I spent about a 1/2 hour on the phone yesterday with Roadtrek/Hymer inside technical sales. My call was about the Aktiv .

First off, he was incredibly accommodating with his time and very open. He also admitted to some quality problems with the Aktiv. I had been to a dealer the day before and noticed several fit and finish problems in the interior.

As an early adopter of many new things (IBM PC 1982, Honda Prelude 4 wheel steer 1989, MacBook 1994 to name a few) I've learned to accept initial quality problems for new tech as long as the mfg'r has a long term reliability track record. He admitted to this and promised that the dealer and the factory would fix. He also commented that as more Hymers are being made, the better they are getting quality wise (again part of the learning curve for a new product).

The dealer (Colton RV, not a Camping World affiliate) also knew little about the Hymer Aktiv even though they are a well respected RV dealer in Upstate NY.

IMHO - what is being experienced by Roadtrek (a trusted brand) is that they've been taken over by a European company and trust into a product line and been asked to make a work quickly.

Given this, I think it's reasonable that the dealers are weak in product knowledge, but unlike other products with initial quality problems, I'm a little more suspect of a $60k or $100k product with initial quality problems. If we do decided to go for an Aktiv or Sunlight, it is only because I can drive 2 hours directly to the factory (and by pass the dealer) for repair.

Warm welcome in the forum and I appreciate your reply to my post, however, I am not sure you read it. I have had only 3 direst encounters with Roadtrek based on which I posted my previous comments:

1. My 2013 search for a B-class van when I found the fit and finish of the Roadtreks way below my cash release trigger point;

2. Mr. CEO - Jim Hammill comments copied from his Facebook on this thread, I can only assume these are real http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f7...ml#post57709.;

3. My short visit at Camping World and the first look at the Sunlight V1.

I did not see much in your post swaying me away from my previous comments, early new technology adapter on Sunlight V1 - what new technology, seams as a stretch especially as a comparison to IBM, Honda, or Apple innovations. What really is the new inventive technology on Sunlight V1?, a cardboard like wavy ceiling.

Personally, I like innovation, I was involved introducing innovative solution to the market but quality never took a back seat. Driving 2 hours to get problems fixed as a response to lacking quality is a truly low threshold to enter, good luck.

So, I have seen Hymer/Sunlight in EU, I saw the Sunlight V1 in the Camping World, dr. Jackal and Mr. Hyde seems as a good synonymous expression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLk1VrJaykU

[mrshowtime3]

a bit surprised by some of the comments. This is a fantastic thing. A 60k class B. We can complain about this and that, but we have a low priced class B now, thats a good thing.

Gotta remember that everyone has different wants. This is just about the perfect RV for someone who wants one as a daily driver. Fantastic price. Twin beds are easily the best layout for a B van but nobody does it anymore except the 59k. Its unfortunate they made the same mistake as the 59k by making it a wet bath when theres easily room for a separate shower back there. With that they would be nearly perfect class B's for our use.

I want nothing to do with diesel. Nothing to do with a Benz. They often break down and the issue is the massive lack of service centers. And ridiculous price for parts and service. At least if the Dodge or Fords break down every town in america can fix it.

So options get pretty limited in this dying B market. Theres only a few people making these things so im glad to see a new low priced entry.

Is it a better buy then a couple year old used 59k? Ehhhh probably not but I could see why someone would buy it new

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mrshowtime3

a bit surprised by some of the comments. This is a fantastic thing. A 60k class B. We can complain about this and that, but we have a low priced class B now, thats a good thing.
Gotta remember that everyone has different wants. This is just about the perfect RV for someone who wants one as a daily driver. Fantastic price. Twin beds are easily the best layout for a B van but nobody does it anymore except the 59k. Its unfortunate they made the same mistake as the 59k by making it a wet bath when theres easily room for a separate shower back there. With that they would be nearly perfect class B's for our use.
I want nothing to do with diesel. Nothing to do with a Benz. They often break down and the issue is the massive lack of service centers. And ridiculous price for parts and service. At least if the Dodge or Fords break down every town in america can fix it.
So options get pretty limited in this dying B market. Theres only a few people making these things so im glad to see a new low priced entry.
Is it a better buy then a couple year old used 59k? Ehhhh probably not but I could see why someone would buy it new

Dying B-class, news to me. In regards to a good price at $60K see the pictures, just 2 examples of prices in UK. Seeing Sunlight V1 could help to get a better understanding of its fit and finish.

[mrshowtime3]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Dying B-class, news to me. In regards to a good price at $60K see the pictures, just 2 examples of prices in UK. Seeing Sunlight V1 could help to get a better understanding of its fit and finish.

Hmmm, lack of depth? Better wording then dying.

So you are not in the USA which explains things. Our prices are vastly different here and we have about 2-3 choices in total. If you want gas engines then you have about 2 companies doing it.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mrshowtime3

Hmmm, lack of depth? Better wording then dying.
So you are not in the USA which explains things. Our prices are vastly different here and we have about 2-3 choices in total. If you want gas engines then you have about 2 companies doing it.

Actually, I am from US but travel a lot and see the frustrating difference between EU and US van camper offerings. I still hope that Hymer will be successful bringing some of the 21st Century manufacturing technologies to US. I attached pictures from UK as examples of what I would call good prices.

Regarding the gas or diesel I am not in love with either, but even having preference it would not sway my decision in selecting a camper van. I have the 2013 Sprinter because this was the only tall panel van available then, today I would most likely select Dodge which in my opinion will prevail similarly to EU where it owns about 80% of the conversion market.

[femike99]

Mumkin - so sorry that I replied to your post directly, I didn't intend to address it directly to you; it was just a general observation of the Aktiv and it's quality (or lack of quality finishes), and my conversation with Roadtrek's inside technical sales rep.

You mentioned though, that being 2 hours from the factory shouldn't necessitate a deciding factor. It is for me because I feel more than comfortable to drive up and ask for help in my own DIY projects to upgrade. The worst that I could be told is no.

Since my post though, I did visit the Camping World in Syracuse (the Rochester Camping World went private again).

We viewed two different Sunlight V1's. Both had similar quality problems as the Aktiv. Both had different problems; such as missing parts on one but not the the other, panels not fitting well, etc...interestingly, the CW dealer was told via invoice that they were built to the same features (and price), but it was clear that one had more features.

We drove one (my first drive of a Promaster). My wife felt more comfortable with the Promaster than towing a TT. This is very important, because unless she drives too, it'll be difficult to make some of our dream trips and bike races I'd like to do out west. I felt that there was a touch too much sway (but that's somewhat fixable with after market sway bars and not a Hymer problem).

In a Class B, our desires are:
1. a "flow" through design (ie. no rear sofa bed) - today's term seems to be open concept
-- so that I can store my racing bicycle(s) inside while riding and still have some access (I may be retired, but I'm not dead...)
-- it was the first unit that my wife and I could easily walk side by side (nearly) through the unit
-- Yes, we'd need to go around back to the the potty with the bikes in place, but we'd need to stop anyways

2. less than 20' long so that we can have it in our garage (with an adjusted door) so that it can replace our SUV with this

3. simplistic - as an engineer, KISS always wins
-- we don't need
---- maple cabinets (can replace existing, admittedly crappy, wrapped particle board with these later...several times if wanted)
---- a power sofa (again want flow though)
---- extra seating
---- though we'd like a bigger frig
---- nor diesel - is there really that much value in Mercedes?
-- this stuff seems to necessitate a $150k price tag from Roadtrek, Pleasure Way, Sportsmobile (et. al. customizers), etc...(or about $120k based upon firm quotes I have)

At an expected out the door price of about $58k (my guess) for the "higher end" unit
-- + my travel trailer trade (10k - 15k)
-- and the 200 AH battery and it's wiring (making it easier to add another 200AH's or more
-- and the engine attached gen set
-- and many after market, Promaster specific adds available (screen doors, seats, in-dash audio) and non-specific (hitches, solar, etc..) that the Promaster affords

In total, there's a very interesting value proposition for us because one can get going fast, and then update/upgrade as one needs, and still be left with cache in the pocket.

To us, it's a better value proposition than the Aktiv, the SRT's (Simplicity and Zion) and likely better than the short wheel based Mercedes (Agile SS or Ascent, though we're not ruling them out totally).

The only value proposition that seems to make more sense to me is a Safari Condo (but we don't want to purchase the vehicle in the US then wait another 18 months)

PS - this value assumes that everything is in place and works leaving the dealer (see missing parts above). I will be hand writing specific terms into the purchase contract (even if Mercedes / Roadtrek / Pleasure Way) to account for such problems and their fixes, or there will be no contract.

[booster]

I can tell you for nearly certain that if you mention a DIY improvement, they will tell you not to touch it, give you zero information on any plumbing, wiring, etc, and tell you to go to the dealer for everything, or there will be no warranty on anything. They wouldn't even give me the wiring information for the surround sound switch on our 190 when I figured out it didn't work because it was wired wrong by them. Of course the dealer was useless and couldn't figure it out.