Mies - an ARV 2500 144 WB 2WD Van

[Vanstertails]

Would your articulating bed design allow you to sit upright enough to work ergonomically at a table swung over your lap? I’m looking for a solution that allows sleeping, semi-recumbent lounging, and ergonomic upright desk work without use of rotated cab seats in a 144”. Configuration a few weeks away!

[booster]

The whole thing with beds that are used for the lounging area sometimes or all the times like with us, makes it essential to find a way to be comfortable sitting or reclining if you want to. Articulating or hinged bases and mattresses work, but are complex, take a lot of space most of the time, and you have to have two if you have two people on the same bed.


We took the easy way out and have been very happy with it for a long time now. Simple backrest and armed floor pillows. I think they were a bit under $10 at Menards nearly 10 years ago and still in use on every trip. We just put them on the front seats at bedtime.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

The whole thing with beds that are used for the lounging area sometimes or all the times like with us, makes it essential to find a way to be comfortable sitting or reclining if you want to. Articulating or hinged bases and mattresses work, but are complex, take a lot of space most of the time, and you have to have two if you have two people on the same bed.

This is an issue that we are attempting to address in the custom bed design for our new rig:

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post136509

We basically took the superb Great West Vans clearspan trifold design and split it into two independent reclining segments with an armrest between them. As shown at the link, it can be used as two independent upright-but-reclinable seats, dual twins, or one queen. The details are a little tricky, but I think I have it mostly worked out. Stay tuned...

[Davydd]

To recap. This is what I gave up in Alvar that has since been installed with different iterations by ARV. Five different sections with infinite positions. The “pillow” section at the head proved to be invaluable for me. Position my head where I wanted it and then press a button until the pillow section met my head.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

This is an issue that we are attempting to address in the custom bed design for our new rig:

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post136509

We basically took the superb Great West Vans clearspan trifold design and split it into two independent reclining segments with an armrest between them. As shown at the link, it can be used as two independent upright-but-reclinable seats, dual twins, or one queen. The details are a little tricky, but I think I have it mostly worked out. Stay tuned...

I have two questions about your design. The real genius behind the GWVan sofa was spanning clear across the van on rails on the outer walls so you have clear unobstructed storage underneath. How do you achieve that design splitting it up into two beds?

Secondly, with all sofa designs they have to comfortably sit and double as a bed which means a fixed low seating height and not a hike up into bed design to allow more storage below like the people who store bikes inside. As I remember, I could not get the Action storage packers under the sofa of my GWVan that I am using now. You could slide the sofa/beds forward to store but that would mean you would have to put stuff outside when camping and using the beds.

With my articulating beds I set the height at 29” so I could get stuff under. Seating wise that was too high but from practical experience it was set at the height of our king bed at home so I knew it would work. I liked that height too because I could look out the windows without propping up on my elbow or pillow.

[Vanstertails]

David, Do the elegantly curved hulls on which your Alvar beds rest enclose the entire operating mechanism? Do you recall how much space is needed beneath the mattress to house the operating mechanism?
I'm thinking of putting a similar bed in the location of the sofa/bed in Bucky, but I want the mattress surface to be at conventional sitting height. Would that leave any space beneath for batteries or other utilities?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Vanstertails

David, Do the elegantly curved hulls on which your Alvar beds rest enclose the entire operating mechanism? Do you recall how much space is needed beneath the mattress to house the operating mechanism?
I'm thinking of putting a similar bed in the location of the sofa/bed in Bucky, but I want the mattress surface to be at conventional sitting height. Would that leave any space beneath for batteries or other utilities?

The hull housed the articulating bed mechanism. The mechanism was pretty substantial in 2015 and I don’t know if ARV has deviated or gone to a new design. It all has to be above the wheel wells if you want inside batteries of which the Valence batteries are. I had under the floor outside Elite batteries in Alvar.

I pointed out the dilemma in a convertible sofa/bed and getting storage below in quoting Avanti’s post. The sofa cushion rides just above the wheel well and articulating mechanisms raise it more. You need to talk to ARV about those details. Valence batteries in being a group 27 profile are less than 9” high but there is a heating plate underneath and complicated battery connectors above but still less than about 12”. The 5 section articulating bed would not make a sitting sofa design comfortable in my opinion sitting on the side of the bed if you want queen depth or better king depth and could be too high. They are great duo Lazy-Boy or zero gravity loungers sitting bed wise.

[Davydd]

I set my bed height as low as I could get it just above the wheel well at a height of about 18” to get as much clearance for the bunk beds as possible. It is a 5” mattress on top of a 3/4” board. The angle iron support is shown where I removed the board to get at the batteries shown in this photo. You can see why I settled for four batteries as I didn’t want to give up those two drawers.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I have two questions about your design. The real genius behind the GWVan sofa was spanning clear across the van on rails on the outer walls so you have clear unobstructed storage underneath. How do you achieve that design splitting it up into two beds?

Yes, that was the tricky part.
In the original GWV design, the "seat" section is supported on all four corners by roller wheels that ride inside the 2-inch steel C-channels that are mounted on either side wall of the van. In my design, the seat is split laterally into three pieces: Two outer seat bottoms and a narrow center arm-rest/filler. The trick is to add an additional flat, rigid steel trolley that spans the van beneath the seat bottoms. This trolley is supported by the four rollers, just as if it were the seat bottom in the old design.

The rear corners of the twin seat bottoms are supported by the trolley using additional rollers. The outer front of each seat has a roller riding on the same C-channel as the trolley. The inner front of each seat bottom is supported by a heavy duty drawer slide mounted on the trolley (and so is cantilevered when in "bed" mode). So, the trolley can move forward/backward just as the GWV seat can, but in addition, the seat bottoms can move independently to form the beds. The narrow center fill piece has a simple hinge and cantilevers when folded down.

It is tricky, because the GWV design has subtle provisions to tilt the bottom seat at the rear in order to make it more comfortable as a seat. This requires some 3-D thinking to replicate properly.

The seats will be powered via linear actuators. I will probably just do the "move the whole thing forward" action manually, since we use it only rarely.

Here are some early concept sketches:

twin beds-top.jpg

twin beds-bottom.jpg

And something a little closer to an actual design:

Untitled 5.jpg

Secondly, with all sofa designs they have to comfortably sit and double as a bed which means a fixed low seating height and not a hike up into bed design to allow more storage below like the people who store bikes inside. As I remember, I could not get the Action storage packers under the sofa of my GWVan that I am using now. You could slide the sofa/beds forward to store but that would mean you would have to put stuff outside when camping and using the beds.

I believe that my design will have the same dimensions as the GWV unit, which we are satisfied with. Not sure where we are putting the batteries yet, but if we needed extra height under the bed, I would raise the whole thing and raise the floor in the foot area correspondingly for sitting comfort. But, remember that we are both tall, so we would probably be OK even if everything were a couple of inches higher.

One issue I haven't worked out yet is that the seats are going to need head-rests in order to be comfortable when reclined. I could easily use removable headrests that would have to be attached every evening, but that would be déclassé. I am hoping to use fixed headrests that fit into a cutout in the rear seat segments (the ones folded back when in "seat" mode). They would fit together like puzzle pieces when in "bed" mode. Would require some expert upholstery work, but I think my upfitter will be up to it.

[GeorgeRa]

Wouldn’t just drawer slides on both side of the bed be simpler. I don’t have linear actuator but also don’t have mid stops which I think you planning to have. With added air spring manual operation is simple and likely faster than electrical.

We often sit on the edge of the extended bad so we added folding legs deployed in bed position. You could calculate weight on the end of the fully extended sliders and compare to sliders capacity. If I recall correctly sliders specs assume distributed weight.

My sitting panel is fully horizontal, to add sitting comfort I asked upholsterer to add about 6” deep 1” high foam build up in the front.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Wouldn’t just drawer slides on both side of the bed be simpler.

I'm not seeing that. I need the C-channels mounted to the van anyway in order to preserver the "push the whole thing forward" feature. Given that, the roller wheels are dead simple and very strong.

I don’t have linear actuator but also don’t have mid stops which I think you planning to have. With added air spring manual operation is simple and likely faster than electrical.

I really want the recline angle to be easily adjustable by the occupants. I think the actuators will provide a much more pleasant experience, and will be fast enough.

We often sit on the edge of the extended bad so we added folding legs deployed in bed position. You could calculate weight on the end of the fully extended sliders and compare to sliders capacity. If I recall correctly sliders specs assume distributed weight.

Mechanical engineering is probably my least-developed skill. But, the sliders I have are massive and very robust. I think they will be fine, but if I am wrong we could always add supports later.

My sitting panel is fully horizontal, to add sitting comfort I asked upholsterer to add about 6” deep 1” high foam build up in the front.

I think I have the angles nailed (basically by copying the GWV design). Our first priority is bed comfort--I am determined to have it dead flat and with uniform firmness. Screwing around with non-uniform foam scares me. The current design has 4" foam over plywood. If that isn't enough, I might try Froli springs.

[GeorgeRa]

I am not completely clear how your system will work, could be my grey hair or more details would clarify it for me. I seriously contemplated the Froli system and concluded that for 3 panel bed is difficult. You could design panels for Froli but overall geometry could suffer.

I had the sofa bed made by good upholstery shop, I asked for sleeping comfort priority and they built the foam structure, from all RVs we had this bed is one of the most comfortable ones.

If would do conversion again I would most likely pick a good rock & roll sofa bed from EU with TÜV approval, with safety belts and pay dearly for shipping, see Asimba2's van - https://ourkaravan.com/

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I am not completely clear how your system will work, could be my grey hair or more details would clarify it for me.

Well, it hasn't been built yet, so maybe it doesn't work.
It is probably easier to understand if one is familiar with the GWV design.
Ask some questions.

I seriously contemplated the Froli system and concluded that for 3 panel bed is difficult. You could design panels for Froli but overall geometry could suffer.

I don't really know that much about Froli, so I may not know what I am talking about.

I had the sofa bed made by good upholstery shop, I asked for sleeping comfort priority and they built the foam structure, from all RVs we had this bed is one of the most comfortable ones.

I am kind of counting on my upfitter to get it right.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Well, it hasn't been built yet, so maybe it doesn't work.
It is probably easier to understand if one is familiar with the GWV design.
Ask some questions.

I don't really know that much about Froli, so I may not know what I am talking about.

I am kind of counting on my upfitter to get it right.

I assume GW looks like this:

1. Rear panel has rear rollers and front on axis hinges to mid panel. For bed position it lands on rear rollers and front rollers.

2. Mid panel has rear on axis hinges and from hinge offset by mattress thickness. For bed it lands on 4 corner rollers.

3. Front panel attached to mid panel by offset hinges and is guided by four corners rollers.

Wall mounted channel guides allowing for seat to bed and seat/bed fore and aft motion.

Great design if wall to wall space is available. For side cabinets plethora of rock & roll sofa beds are available, unfortunately most of them are in Europe.

https://www.google.com/search?q=camp...G_enUS985US985

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by Vanstertails

David, Do the elegantly curved hulls on which your Alvar beds rest enclose the entire operating mechanism? Do you recall how much space is needed beneath the mattress to house the operating mechanism?
I'm thinking of putting a similar bed in the location of the sofa/bed in Bucky, but I want the mattress surface to be at conventional sitting height. Would that leave any space beneath for batteries or other utilities?

Any clue to why Sue decided to part with Bucky? It seemed like she put a lot of thought into its production including hands on at ARV.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

Any clue to why Sue decided to part with Bucky? It seemed like she put a lot of thought into its production including hands on at ARV.

I heard family issues. She had been a full timer before she got Bucky.

[Davydd]

ARV has posted a new video on 144 Class Bs they have been building. Our Mies is one of them and they have more information about the lightweight panels they use to build our walls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?fbclid...ature=youtu.be

[rowiebowie]

I just learned Mercedes made a 3500 on the short chassis. From the video I gather the 3500 has dually rear wheels and the 2500 has singles.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

I just learned Mercedes made a 3500 on the short chassis. From the video I gather the 3500 has dually rear wheels and the 2500 has singles.

That's correct. Most DIY 144 vans, Winnebago Revel, Pleasure-way Ascent and Roadtrek Agiles are 2500s. ARVs 144 are mostly 3500 duallies because after you add VB Air Suspension, 4x4 and levelers you exceed the limit of what you can build and carry to stay under 9,050 lbs vs 11,030. I forewent those items to maintain a 2500. I do know of two other 2500 144 ARVs. There could be more. That's why most 144s are spartan with few built walls, small cabinetry, etc. I have as much cabinetry as longer Sprinters so had to employ every trick in the book to get there. You can scroll back and check my drawings to see.

I asked and we explored the 80-20 cabinetry route and ARV found this lightweight board construction saved more weight. Lightweight board was not used everywhere and the cabinetry is more elegant than with 80-20, IMO. Their cabinet shop is pretty sophisticated though I didn't get the numerous curvilinear corners they usually put in which you can't do with 80-20. I can't remember, but I think I had 14 curvilinear corners in Alvar.

I didn't feel I needed 4x4 or VB air suspension because I've never needed 4x4 in 17 years of Class B RVing and no one rides in the back. I reserved an opinion on the levelers because I could add them later, but since May and two months on the road I haven't needed to level with blocks once. I can get a level tolerable sweet spot with the shorter wheel base a lot easier.

[Boxster1971]

David - you certainly have a lot of experience driving Miles in cold climates. Thanks for sharing your experience - it is very helpful.

I know you have a diesel fired Espar hydronic heater system that also heats your van using 120VAC power when available. But I’m wondering how you keep the van warm and prevent tanks from freezing when driving. Is the hydronic system tied to the engine coolant system so you get full heat when driving?