Mies - an ARV 2500 144 WB 2WD Van

[avanti]

If I were a camper, I'd get a trailer.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

If I were a camper, I'd get a trailer.

Good point. When we made the decision to get a camper van, we had the trailer and we used it rarely. It was too big for us, process of hooking with heavy weight equalizing spring-bars, unhooking, parking, towing was inhibiting our usage.

So, in 2013 we decided to change, change the big trailer to either a small (<15’) fiberglass trailer or a camper van. The decision was very close, both options fit our agreed upon funds but past experience with two camper vans and frustration with the trailer swayed us to a camper van, but, sometime we regret. Sometime the camper van is just perfect for our us, sometime we wish to have a small trailer.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Did you actually have 460W panels, you had a big hole drilled by ARV in one of them. A big hole can kill a panel.

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post114648

That was a designed vent penetration and did not kill the panel at all. It was about 3% of the surface so I guess they didn’t tell me I sacrificed about 5 watts. So you got me. 455 watts.

I bet few have the panels zoned in half so partial shade didn’t kill the panel or each panel had separate controllers. Still with all that solar, Quartzsite in the desert in January with short days and low sun angles, or the conifer forest Canyon CG we stayed in Yellowstone last week, or for heavens sake, Humboldt Redwood State Forest where the sun never shines those panels covering most of the roof to require a cui out for the vent was worth it—no?

Let’s be realistic. Those types of situations in “camping” situations solar contribution would be negligible and even in the most optimum situation solar manufacturer’s extol on a completely sunny day with no shade at the summer solstice I could idle a second generator about a half hour to get the output of 460 watts of solar panels. That’s why I completely eliminated solar this time. I have practical knowledge and experience and couldn’t get much more than 100 watts on my roof that I found more valuable to have two skylights as I mentioned before. Avanti got it right. Solar’s only value in a Class B is maintenance of batteries in storage outdoors if you analyze it.

The outdoor enthusiast which I saw many of last week seem to value roof space with decks and storage of kayaks and canoes, and other storage they could not get inside their vans because they want their expensive bikes inside. The deck idea with the ladder is kind of cool but not my style at my age. I did climb up on Sue Valentine’s ARV Bucky short Sprinter van full roof deck once.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

That was a designed vent penetration and did not kill the panel at all. It was about 3% of the surface so I guess they didn’t tell me I sacrificed about 5 watts. So you got me. 455 watts.

I bet few have the panels zoned in half so partial shade didn’t kill the panel or each panel had separate controllers. Still with all that solar, Quartzsite in the desert in January with short days and low sun angles, or the conifer forest Canyon CG we stayed in Yellowstone last week, or for heavens sake, Humboldt Redwood State Forest where the sun never shines those panels covering most of the roof to require a cui out for the vent was worth it—no?

Let’s be realistic. Those types of situations in “camping” situations solar contribution would be negligible and even in the most optimum situation solar manufacturer’s extol on a completely sunny day with no shade at the summer solstice I could idle a second generator about a half hour to get the output of 460 watts of solar panels. That’s why I completely eliminated solar this time. I have practical knowledge and experience and couldn’t get much more than 100 watts on my roof that I found more valuable to have two skylights as I mentioned before. Avanti got it right. Solar’s only value in a Class B is maintenance of batteries in storage outdoors if you analyze it.

The outdoor enthusiast which I saw many of last week seem to value roof space with decks and storage of kayaks and canoes, and other storage they could not get inside their vans because they want their expensive bikes inside. The deck idea with the ladder is kind of cool but not my style at my age. I did climb up on Sue Valentine’s ARV Bucky short Sprinter van full roof deck once.

I am not trying to get you; I simply pointed to substandard engineering. Your panels (ex-panels) have 50 cells each. They can generate 23V charge, which is great for MPTT which can utilize this excess voltage.

If your panels were zoned in half, each one half would had voltage of 11.5V, not enough for PWM nor MPPT to be useful for charging so I doubt they were parted.

So, you likely were losing one panel cutting your total output down to 2/3, 306W.

I have seen quite few PV installation but never one with holes in it.

Sorry you had such bad experience with PV charging system, perhaps a better engineered system would change your well-advertised aversion to solar panels.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I am not trying to get you; I simply pointed to substandard engineering.

Sorry you had such bad experience with PV charging system, perhaps a better engineered system would change your well-advertised aversion to solar panels.

George,

With all due respect I don’t think you know what was designed on my previous ARV. Certainly it was not substandard engineered and definitely not 2/3, 306W solar. And if you are right, it would not make a hill of beans difference to what I said about solar. Don’t take my word for it. I’m not an engineer. I’m a realist that doesn’t poop in my van’s living space. OK, you got me teed off.

You are free to contact ARV and talk to them. In fact every year they have an ARVfest in May and anyone can attend and they have an open book about everything they do, and you have full access of the building and the employees to answer your questions or concerns.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

............... I’m a realist that doesn’t poop in my van’s living space. OK, you got me teed off.

................

What pooping has to do with PV engineering, cool off, you lost me.

[Boxster1971]

Davydd - thought you would enjoy this article about forgotten, unbuilt Mies van der Rohe design on Indiana University’s Bloomington campus. It was in this weekends Wall Street Journal Magazine. Attached PDF copy from magazine for personal use.

Enjoy,
- - Mike

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Davydd - thought you would enjoy this article about forgotten, unbuilt Mies van der Rohe design on Indiana University’s Bloomington campus. It was in this weekends Wall Street Journal Magazine. Attached PDF copy from magazine for personal use.

Enjoy,
- - Mike

Interesting. I imagine the fraternity could never come up with the money for the design or it departed from the classic Indiana limestone motifs being built at the time. Indiana never had a school of architecture in the state other than Notre Dame at the time I graduated from high school. That’s why I ended up at the University of Cincinnati School of Design Architecture and Art.

I visited Mies van der Rohe’s Chicago office and the Farnsworth House in 1964 on an architectural field trip. “Less is more” is more complicated than you can imagine. Those facades were simple looking but the design that went into them to enclose structure and utilities were complex. Their office built full scale model details of every joint.

[Boxster1971]

Davydd - from the information you have posted Mies has a stainless steel countertop and a portable induction cooktop burner. Have you had any issue with using the induction burner on the countertop? I understand an induction burner on a metal counter will loose efficiency as the metallic surface will absorb some of the magnetic energy generated by the burner. I've looked at some induction burner owners manuals and they say not to use the burner on a metal surface. If ARV used a non-magnetic stainless steel for the countertop there should be no issues.

[Davydd]

We haven’t had a problem with the induction cooktop. The stainless steel I believe is non-magnetic. Now you got me curious.

The stainless steel was a weight saving decision to stay at a 2500 chassis. The lavatory and counter in the bathroom is also stainless steel.

[Davydd]

I've released several grab photos of my SketchUp 3D model but I've never published my 2D CAD drawing I developed other than the presentation plans derived from the 2D CAD with hiding different layers and adding presentation layers.

ARV didn't have any drawings that I saw they usually make for builds. They claimed they built directly off my drawings. If so, then anyone could duplicate my build. They use Solid Works 3D CAD which I don't have. I use SketchUp for 3D and Microspot MacDraft for 2D which is a WYSIWYG CAD app. It was the first CAD program for the Mac and has undergone several ownerships and is now a Great Britain company. I've always liked CAD drawing of What You See Is What You Get appearance on the screen and what you print out. I've had work experience with MSDos CAD apps managing prototype development and New Stores for Target that were not WYSIWYG.

Other than taping off the floor plan and getting help from ARV and Rob, the head of the cabinet shop to mock up the bunk beds. I thought about mocking up a cardboard model like George Mauro, Humble Roads, is currently doing but I didn't have the space for it so embarked on SketchUp 3D after completing early 2D drawings. I measured an empty van and also resized Mercedes Benz drawings to complete the background.

This is the drawing I gave to Advanced RV. This drawing was revised to match what ARV eventually built.

[Davydd]

Since our trip out west that abruptly ended with my shingles early September in Yellowstone NP we haven't been out since in Mies. Shingles turned out to be long term Post Herpetic Neuralgia or PHN and the pain is still with me mostly in the ribcage but is now manageable. Our next trip is next week and we are going to go winter camping at Tahquamenon Falls SP in Michigan's Upper Peninsula with about 20 other RV adventurers. It is Mike and Jennifer's of RV Lifestyle annual Winter Freezeout. We have gone a few times in our past Class Bs.

So I will have a chance to test the performance with Mies in extreme cold weather. We will boondock on our way to and from but there will be power connections in the campground. The last Winter Freezeout was during a polar vortex and got down to -15F with about 2 feet of snow.

[avanti]

We absolutely love winter camping, especially with a lot of snow for XC-skiing.

Have fun!

[Davydd]

We used to cross-country ski until I realized that every downhill run I was falling down. That's when I adopted snowshoeing which this group has been doing together mostly on the shore trails to Tahquamenon Falls.

This was a Class B group of mostly Roadtrek when Mike Wendland was promoting Roadtrek but from the beginning some other brands were showing up including three of us in Advanced RVs. There were truck campers and the last time two guys in big standup tents with unique inside heaters.

Now with Wendland in a Class C and promoting RV Lifestyle including all RV types I wonder if it will be a different mix. I think it will be a smaller group this year. This area is a huge snowmobile area and most of the resorts stay open all-year round and the nearest town, Paradise two restaurants are crowded with snowmobilers like bikers in the summer. We have one formal dinner together on Friday night at the brewery and restaurant right in the state park.

It will be over 9 hours away to get there so we take our time and boondock overnight at a Walmart this time of the year as there are no other campgrounds open.

[Davydd]

OK, we have been camping and driving in blizzards and temperatures down to -21F and found a few issues to be worked on. So we are back to the “Mothership” (Advanced RV) for the modifications to keep on with extreme cold weather camping while boondocking and have a fully functioning van. It is snowing outside and will be going down to a paltry 12 degrees so we are going to spend the night in ARV’s parking lot to test the modifications. Then it is down to Texas where they don’t have those problems.

On to another note. While having the run of Advanced RV I could review the build underway and continue to be amazed what their customers have come up with. I didn’t see this build as it has already left the building but it is a truly amazing Class B Sprinter van. It is called “Nelson” and it is an all custom cedar wood interior. This video also touches on the ways ARV builds vans and how they operate. I doubt anyone has ever seen anything like this. It is truly a one of a kind build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMclDTwPwTk

[Boxster1971]

I agree that Nelson is impressive build by ARV. I love Eastern Red Cedar, but I think the amount it Nelson would be too much for me. I really like the use of Volta 48V electrical system, the rear dry bath and macerator toilet.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I agree that Nelson is impressive build by ARV. I love Eastern Red Cedar, but I think the amount it Nelson would be too much for me. I really like the use of Volta 48V electrical system, the rear dry bath and macerator toilet.

A totally cedar van might be a bit much for some but it highlights ARV can pull off the dreams of customers to an extreme. Heck I designed, cut and built a heavy timber mortise and tenon wood peg home 40 years ago and had no help. It too was exposed Douglas Fir timbers and tongue and groove pine walls throughout. So I am guilty of going overboard.

Macerator toilets require water to be available to use. That’s why the most of our cold weather mods to ensure it. One plus is we now have direct heat in our bathroom via a branch off the Espar fired fan with a dashboard like adjustable vent to control around of air or shut off through our wall blowing on the toilet. We tested it and the bathroom can almost reach sauna temperatures. I caught my wife last night boondocking in 7F weather sitting on the toilet seat reading a book.

[Boxster1971]

Thanks for the details on the cold weather fix by ARV for your macerating toilet. Forty plus years ago I built my first B-van on a Dodge Tradesman 300.

[Davydd]

Time for some real-time travel experience and how we pack for a trip with Mies warts, mess and all.

The first view is the back storage arranged with the heaviest containers at the bottom to the top shelf with light weight clothes. We had to bring two sets of clothes for winter and then spring wear. We had a cooler, two action packer containers and one insta-crate with room to spare. We probably don’t need the cooler anymore as it is just another storage container.

We can sleep with the driver side door closed and the passenger side door open with that bug screen in place in a safe place. In the winter we replace the bug screen with an insulated panel that zips in.

The second photo is shot from the turned around passenger seat with the bathroom door propped open. Behind that propped open door is a tall cabinet for hanging clothes.

The third photo is from the turned around driver’s seat viewing the refrigerator, microwave and Silverleaf control tall cabinet, and the bunk beds.

The fourth photo is looking back at the turned around cab seats with the TV tray sized tables in place. That overhead cab shelf is where we keep up to four medium size duffle bags for most of our clothes.

[Vanstertails]

"Macerator toilets require water to be available to use. That’s why the most of our cold weather mods to ensure it."

David, How is the macerating toilet's requirement for water and heating different from that of any other foot-pumped black tank toilet? Are you distinguishing its requirements because one could use antifreeze to flush the conventional toilet?

I'm thinking of using the same Tecma toilet in a 144" 3500 build. I like its smooth compact looks that seem easy to clean, and I imagine that it eliminates any possibility of odors coming back up from the black tank after a long interval between dumping. But I'm wondering if the macerating toilet necessarily consumes more water per flush than a conventional toilet, if it draws phantom power, and if it poses a risk of mechanical failure beyond expectations for a pedestrian black-tank toilet.

Thanks for your advice, and for sharing your brilliant design process and its results in Mies.