Could this be the end of Roadtrek???

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Is Roadtrek really building its own batteries and electrical components? If not, then the question is really which expertise is more important, experience with RV's and how they are used or expertise with lithium batteries. You need both, but the real business in batteries right now is for solar installations which have a lot fewer moving parts, space and weight limitations etc. New technology is certainly a challenge for any company, but that just means Roadtrek is ahead on the learning curve at this point.

If you are new to the history of Roadtrek and their electronics system development effort I suggest you do a search of this forum looking for info on eTrek, Ecotrek, and Voltstart. You will find that Roadtrek has a very poor track record. they have been developing electronics systems and delivering them to customers and subjecting these customers to being the beta testers for these systems. Very poor system analysis, very poor designs, very inadequate development testing, and very defensive responses to any comments pointing out these issues.

If they honestly look at what happened, the learning curve would have them switch to an outside partner in order to remain competitive with the builders who are using Volta, Victron, Li3, etc to provide these systems...

[RossWilliams]

It may well be that Roadtrek systems have had more problems than others but I don't consider complaints on internet forums a reliable guide to that. Particularly this forum where there is an established group with grudges that are looking for problems with Roadtrek and every opportunity is taken to bash the company and, in particular, its former President.

"subjecting these customers to being the beta testers for these systems."

I think that overstates the situation. More accurately, early adopters were used to discover flaws that were missed. I haven't seen other all electric coaches from 5 years ago other than Roadtrek. Which companies had them?

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

More accurately, early adopters were used to discover flaws that were missed. I haven't seen other all electric coaches from 5 years ago other than Roadtrek. Which companies had them?

Charge people big money to beta testors "check"


Other electric coaches we mostly single, specific built back then, and for good reason as the tech hadn't yet evolved.



It really doesn't matter if you have the only all electric class b out there, if they don't work and you can't/won't fix them.


Nearly all the early etreks with AGM batteries have had early battery failures from everything we have found out over the years. And very many of the first out Ecotrek and Voltstarts failed very quick, also based on lots of input from various sources.


Of course this is just from a "hater" (that has been here the whole time learning) and to Ross who is just a "fan boy" (who won't believe anything that is negative about Roadtrek).

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I believe there are Roadtrek owners (ponti33602) on this forum who own Roadtreks with the technology package and seem pleased. Have not heard regrets.

Are you suggesting current generation lithium solutions from Roadtrek are problematic?

I agree with Greg's tactful and concise response below.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

It may well be that Roadtrek systems have had more problems than others but I don't consider complaints on internet forums a reliable guide to that. Particularly this forum where there is an established group with grudges that are looking for problems with Roadtrek and every opportunity is taken to bash the company and, in particular, its former President.

"subjecting these customers to being the beta testers for these systems."

I think that overstates the situation. More accurately, early adopters were used to discover flaws that were missed. I haven't seen other all electric coaches from 5 years ago other than Roadtrek. Which companies had them?

You can find the facts here or on the Roadtrek and Hymers Owners Group on Facebook, actual owners presenting actual problems. I suspect none of that info will be good enough but if you really want the facts they are readily available. I suspect there is no source of info you would trust unless it came directly from Roadtrek but they have never fessed up to their failures.

The best example of a company who was doing these systems with high reliability in parallel with Roadtrek is Advanced RV who has fielded lithium battery systems using technology sourced from outside suppliers with very few problems found in the field by customers. They did some system integration themselves but no development of the technology themselves.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I believe there are Roadtrek owners (ponti33602) on this forum who own Roadtreks with the technology package and seem pleased. Have not heard regrets.

Are you suggesting current generation lithium solutions from Roadtrek are problematic?

Yes, there are happy folks with the Ecotrek packages. Some of the major issues have been resolved for the most part, like the units shutting down and not restarting, or locking out in the cold, and Voltstart problems, so functional systems are working. Nobody really knows if they are working to rated capacity because there is not real monitoring on them, so use patterns very probably playing into the satisfaction factor. We do still hear about quite few Ecotrek module replacements being done, I think there was just one mentioned a couple of days ago in the warranty discussion. Parasitic loss may, or may not, have been corrected at this point. I don't think we have seen any full testing by anyone to see if the over 100AH per day loss has been eliminated or reduced to this point.


I would say the newest units are better, and likely to perform OK for most folks for at least a while. Long term durability in heavy use has seemed to be an issue in the past, so that is still unkown going forward. Last I heard, one unit had 3 lithium battery replacements in the first two years, but haven't heard an update lately.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by booster

I would say the newest units are better, and likely to perform OK for most folks for at least a while. Long term durability in heavy use has seemed to be an issue in the past, so that is still unkown going forward. Last I heard, on unit had 3 lithium battery replacements in the first two years, but haven't heard an update lately.

Now that there are commercially made systems available, custom may be the way to go. As you alluded to technology moves fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raxuo25FcDM

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

...The best example of a company who was doing these systems with high reliability in parallel with Roadtrek is Advanced RV who has fielded lithium battery systems using technology sourced from outside suppliers with very few problems found in the field by customers. ...

While I agree that Advanced RV does quality work, their initial systems had problems. But their owner base is so small you will not find much evidence of the problems. Also to ARV's credit they fixed all the identified problems and offered previous owners fixes for free or minimal cost.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

While I agree that Advanced RV does quality work, their initial systems had problems. But their owner base is so small you will not find much evidence of the problems. Also to ARV's credit they fixed all the identified problems and offered previous owners fixes for free or minimal cost.

I think that is quite accurate, although a lot of the very early ARV lithium issues were with the drop in batteries that they first had and quickly found out that they were not a good item. Roadtrek also tried drop in, IIRC, and came to the same conclusion. Balmar issues are often also lumped in with lithium battery issues, but are really a separate item, tech wise. It is true that lithium systems with high acceptance rates can push a Nations alternator/Balmar regulator system over it's limits, though.

[RossWilliams]

Anyone who is satisfied owner of a Roadtrek is a "fanboy". Which sort of explains a lot.

I am someone who only recently purchased an almost 4 year old Etrek which has shown none of the apparent problems.

I came here for information and after reading posts decided it was unlikely to be reliable. One that really set off alarm bells was a post for help in replacing batteries that almost immediately turned into a discussion of who should pay and the problems with Roadtrek's warranty coverage and its management. People seemed more interested in stirring up a conflict with Roadtrek than helping the person get their problem solved.

Its also apparent that the fact that batteries fail doesn't necessarily mean the system was badly designed. It may mean people ran their batteries until everything stopped or otherwise caused them to fail early. Try finding a post here where that was fully explored before trying to blame Roadtrek. There may be some, but I haven't seen them.

Some people, no doubt got bad products. And there were likely design flaws in early versions. In fact, there are plenty of people that would argue you should never buy a new RV, because they are all likely to have problems when new. Let someone else iron out the flaws and buy used.

As for who to trust, I think that is a bit complicated. If I didn't trust Roadtrek, I wouldn't have bought their product. The same way I trust my dealer, my repair people etc. But I don't think they are perfect.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I am someone who only recently purchased an almost 4 year old Etrek which has shown none of the apparent problems.

I came here for information and after reading posts decided it was unlikely to be reliable. One that really set off alarm bells was a post for help in replacing batteries that almost immediately turned into a discussion of who should pay and the problems with Roadtrek's warranty coverage and its management. People seemed more interested in stirring up a conflict with Roadtrek than helping the person get their problem solved.

Its also apparent that the fact that batteries fail doesn't necessarily mean the system was badly designed. It may mean people ran their batteries until everything stopped or otherwise caused them to fail early. Try finding a post here where that was fully explored before trying to blame Roadtrek. There may be some, but I haven't seen them.

Some people, no doubt got bad products. And there were likely design flaws in early versions. In fact, there are plenty of people that would argue you should never buy a new RV, because they are all likely to have problems when new. Let someone else iron out the flaws and buy used.

As for who to trust, I think that is a bit complicated. If I didn't trust Roadtrek, I wouldn't have bought their product. The same way I trust my dealer, my repair people etc. But I don't think they are perfect.

You apparently didn't bother to read very much of what is available here. There are many dozens of pages of wiring diagrams, analysis, suggested solutions and discussion thereof. Several etreks have been modified and/or fixed by adding the balancer after visits and discussions here, and at least on by going to a pure 24v battery system with a 12v converter.



You can try to spin this however you want, but you didn't do your research here, or on the other Roadtrek sites that Greg mentioned.



The etrek 8 battery system from the factory, without the balancer, is a faulty design and you can learn about that on many of the boater tech sites, as they went though all this same stuff long before Roadtrek put out the etrek.


Certainly, many of us feel that Roadtrek has done a poor job of designing, releasing, and warrantying new power systems. There is a reason for this that goes beyond your assumptions that it is bias and stupidity, and that reason is that ROADTREK DESIGNED, RELEASED, AND POORLY WARRANTEED VERY INADEQUATELY DESIGNED SYSTEMS. You can try to blame that on as many people here as you want, but the data and history is not supporting your theories.


What you don't seem to realize is that your etrek, if it doesn't have an added balancer, can kill 1/2 the batteries and leave the others still charged. You won't know it because there is no monitoring. Then, when you go to recharge, the batteries that weren't completely discharged will get overcharged while the low charge half are filling. This kills batteries. Maybe you will get lucky and a previous owner put a balancer on it, maybe even because they read up on it here.

[RossWilliams]

"The best example of a company who was doing these systems with high reliability in parallel with Roadtrek is Advanced RV "

Isn't Advanced RV a low volume custom upfitter rather than a manufacturer and at a much higher price point than Roadtrek?

[RossWilliams]

" You can try to blame that on as many people here as you want, but the data and history is not supporting your theories."

What data? You mean complaints you heard here? I have seen examples of how the early systems were flawed, as well as fixed under warranty with no hesitation by Roadtrek. I am aware that you started out trying to find solutions to problems. But that was a LONG time ago. As far as I can tell, to some extent Roadtrek came up with their own solution and you decided it wasn't acceptable. But frankly, it actually sounds more personal than that. You just don't like Jim Hammil.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

" You can try to blame that on as many people here as you want, but the data and history is not supporting your theories."

What data? You mean complaints you heard here? I have seen examples of how the early systems were flawed, as well as fixed under warranty with no hesitation by Roadtrek. I am aware that you started out trying to find solutions to problems. But that was a LONG time ago. As far as can tell, to some extent Roadtrek came up with their own solution and you decided it wasn't acceptable. But frankly, it actually sounds more personal than that. You just don't like Jim Hammil.

No I don't like Jim Hammill's tactics and behavior. I can't speak for anything beyond that.


The etrek issues surfaced before Hammill went on the attack and we learned how he really treated folks, so you can't put that on Hammill bias.


As far as Roadtrek fixing without problem the etrek balancer addition (I assume this is what you are referencing) you must not be aware that a Roadtrek customer with repeated battery issues hired a system expert to analyze his etrek, and it is he who came up with balancer fix. Roadtrek was hit or miss on retrofitting them depending on their whims, it appears, after that customer publicized the fix. Some customers got them, some didn't. I don't know if they were ever put into new production before the AGMs went away.



We all know you won't accept any data, from anyone, unless it supports your predetermined, contrarian, agenda, so no, I will not dig out a bunch of data that you should have found yourself. You would just ignore and denigrate it anyway. We know that from a multitude of past discussions. As I said, blame us all if you want, but it was Roadtrek that caused their own problems.



When you can come back with some good information about how well designed the etrek system is, from someone other than Roadtrek or one of their cronies, post it up so we can see it. You can start your research by Googling "24v battery system with 12v center tap". You could also let us know how the claim that your etrek "could run the AC for 9-12 hours and then recharge the batteries in 45 minutes" is ethical or not.

[RossWilliams]

"You could also let us know how the claim that your etrek "could run the AC for 9-12 hours and then recharge the batteries in 45 minutes" is ethical or not. "

I don't know about ethical, it certainly isn't accurate unless you are talking about very limited degrees of cooling. Where did that claim show up? A google search says nowhere.

"no, I will not dig out a bunch of data"

If it existed,you wouldn't need to dig it out. What you mean is you are convinced if you did you would find it.

"We all know you won't accept any data, from anyone"

You haven't provided any data. Just anecdotal allegations like the one above. So maybe we have different ideas of 'data'. I have no doubt there are dissatisfied Roadtrek customers. I doubt you will find many companies that don't have some customers whose expectations they failed to meet.

"your predetermined, contrarian, agenda"

contrarian=fanboy=satisfied (at least so far) Roadtrek customer

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"You could also let us know how the claim that your etrek "could run the AC for 9-12 hours and then recharge the batteries in 45 minutes" is ethical or not. "

I don't know about ethical, it certainly isn't accurate unless you are talking about very limited degrees of cooling. Where did that claim show up? A google search says nowhere.

That was in lots of Roadtrek literature at the time, since purged. Hammill and his minions came on this forum and other forums as posters to insult, denigrate and threaten anyone who dared to question that very claim.



The favorite insult was calling folks "armchair engineers" who were nowhere near as knowledgeable as Roadtrek engineers. Of course the armchair engineers were proven to be correct.

[booster]

Here is a cut and paste from a post here on 11/4/2012 that is a cut and paste of a Roadtrek literature statement.

Quote:
There is no propane system or conventional generator. Electrical power generation is provided by a generator/alternator mounted to the van’s diesel engine that can charge eight dead auxiliary batteries in only 40 minutes. Supplemental power comes from a 240W solar charging system and an optional 90W EFOY methanol fuel cell generator. For less weight and even faster charging times, three lithium ion batteries are optional.

All this reserve power is stored in up to eight 6V AGM batteries (1600 amp. hours) and distributed directly to 12V lights and appliances and through a 2500W inverter to 110V appliances like the air conditioner, inductive stove, instant drinking water heater, on-demand water heater for galley sink and bathroom, convection/microwave oven and comfort heater. The system features surge protection and power monitoring.

Just imagine the possibilities. If you don’t need air conditioning, you can go for days without an external electrical connection (shore power). And when your batteries do run low, you can charge them up fully by simply idling the engine for 30-40 minutes using less fuel than a conventional generator to do the same task.

When it is hot, the auxiliary batteries will run the 110V air conditioner with the compressor on for over 9 hours – and longer under normal use when the compressor runs only intermittently. No more dry camping on hot nights with the generator running all night! You can run the 110V air conditioner with the engine mounted generator for supplemental cooling while driving – for much less than the cost of running a conventional generator. Plus you avoid the maintenance required on a conventional generator. Enjoy comfort heating without the noise of a propane furnace.

Aside from the previously mentioned ridiculous claim for AC running and recharge time, they also claim the batteries are 1600AH. This is a technically true claim that is severely misleading. It means they have 8 200AH six volt batteries. This is 800AH is the normal RV usage, so they are just trying to look better than they are. Hammill came on later and said an "amp is an amp" which is certainly true but we are talking about amp-hours and watt really matter is watt-hours, so if you don't spec the volts, AH are as useless as amps.

[RossWilliams]

I shouldn't get involved in decade old personal arguments ... "armchair engineers" tells the story.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I shouldn't get involved in decade old personal arguments ... "armchair engineers" tells the story.

So you are now saying facts don't matter after demanding them? You asked for where that info came from, and now it irrelevant? Personal feelings don't count in this as the quote above came before any of us even knew, or cared, who Hammill was.



How many spent $130K on an etrek only to find out they had been lied to?


As I said, go ahead and keep blaming us here, and don't believe the facts, that is your choice. But it isn't reality.

I don't know why we bother to give you any information, as if it doesn't fit your predetermined idea, you won't accept it.


Of course you chose to ignore the fact that the "armchair engineers" where correct and Roadtrek wasn't.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

Here is a cut and paste from a post here on 11/4/2012 that is a cut and paste of a Roadtrek literature statement.

Aside from the previously mentioned ridiculous claim for AC running and recharge time, they also claim the batteries are 1600AH. This is a technically true claim that is severely misleading. It means they have 8 200AH six volt batteries. This is 800AH is the normal RV usage, so they are just trying to look better than they are. Hammill came on later and said an "amp is an amp" which is certainly true but we are talking about amp-hours and watt really matter is watt-hours, so if you don't spec the volts, AH are as useless as amps.

I admire your patience. Actually, this description describes my system very well except fuel cells, my system is powered by naphtha-soaked sodium, it has 100A per day of power and it draws with ease 24V current. It is very robust with 1000Wh of extremely efficient solar panels running at 80% efficiency even in late evenings. I don’t have under hood generator, found IT (in trunk) one more than sufficient.