Could this be the end of Roadtrek???

[booster]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Thor Industries, Inc. (NYSE:THO) Files An 8-K Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement ByME Staff 8-k -February 1, 2019

Among other revisions to the Purchase Agreement, the Amendment (i) documented the fact that EHG sold and transferred the North American operations to be excluded from the Transaction prior to the closing, (ii) reduced the cash purchase price paid by the Company by €170 million (approximately $194 million at the exchange rate as of January 31, 2019).

Wonder to whom EHG NA was sold and transferred to? Holding company?

It may have just sold to the Hymer family because they couldn't use the EHG name any more and didn't really have a company once the transaction was complete.

[Glamper]

I would think there might be some legal issues ahead? If it turns out there was fraud, forensic accounting might take some time, but the < 20 foot class B is pretty much Hymer/RT. And the millenials want the smaller vans (the millenials with $$) so that's a big market in NA. Someone has to rescue RoadTrek/Hymer in North America, Camper vans fastest growing segment in US RV industry | Motorhome Full Time

[Moonriver]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Sunshine State in Florida... one of the few that kept doing warranty work even if you didn't buy it from them. Good people who know their stuff.

Just hope things start limping along again now that the audit is done. The dealers have as many questions as we do.

All of my future work/purchases will be going to Sunshine State. I have heard nothing but good things about them.

[mumkin]

EHGNA still belongs to the Hymer family. No transfer to anyone. As yet, there is no word from the family as to what happens next. I expect that we will hear something this week.

While they will be free to use the Roadtrek name, what still is very unclear is what happens to the Hymer products, the names of which would now be owned by the Thor German branch. I guess the two options are to rename them as Roadtreks... or stop building/selling them.

My speculation is that the Hymer family will get the scandal settled, get the operation back on its feet and sell it. The big question is to whom. I would love to see LTV/EEE buy it, but I highly doubt that that family has any interest.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by mumkin

My speculation is that the Hymer family will get the scandal settled, get the operation back on its feet and sell it. The big question is to whom. I would love to see LTV/EEE buy it, but I highly doubt that that family has any interest.

I think LTV/EEE should buy the EHG NA operations at a very reduced price. Their reason for ending Class B vans was to free up capacity for the more popular Mercedes B+ / C products.

Since that time, the Class B van market has grown in popularity and LTV taking the brand and putting their design spin on them would be great and give them extra capacity at the new EHG NA facility for their B+ products.

It could be a win / win for LTV and the staff at EHG NA - Keeping it Canadian.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I think Leisure Travel could pick up (if the price and terms are right) the Roadtrek brand keeps things in the Canadian family and gives LTV a van product again and an established customer base.

I recall LTV has had challenges building their products fast enough.

LTV chose to stop selling vans in favor of their class Cs. It'd probably make more sense for them to hire Roadtrek's talent and resume selling LTV Bs.

Why would they want all of the baggage that comes with the Roadtrek name and existing commitments?

[RossWilliams]

Hymer NA was always a separate corporation. It was wholly owned by EGA, but it would have had its own board and corporate structure. I assume the shareholders in EGA were issued shares to Hymer NA in proportion to their ownership in EGA. They may have made changes to the board if it was largely made up of EGA executives who are now part of Thor.

I think the most puzzling question is how the Hymer brands are handled. It may be that they were licensed to Hymer NA and those licenses are still valid. If so, Hymer NA just goes back to doing business as usual, presuming fake sales are not "usual".

Apparently stock market analysts weren't impressed with Thor's purchase of Hymer. They downgraded their Thor recommendations and its stock is taking a pretty good hit today. Sounded like the debt load from the purchase raised questions.

It would be ironic if Hymer NA walked away from this in better financial shape than Thor.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by B Eventually

LTV chose to stop selling vans in favor of their class Cs. It'd probably make more sense for them to hire Roadtrek's talent and resume selling LTV Bs.

Why would they want all of the baggage that comes with the Roadtrek name and existing commitments?

Because despite the 'baggage', Roadtrek is a very popular brand in NA. LTV could benefit from a dose of technology infusion with staff able to apply it to their Class C models.

I don't think the Roadtrek brand is 'toast'. I bet most casual buyers have no clue what is happening behind the scenes.

[GeorgeRa]

Whoever will be heading Hymer NA/Roadtrek I just wish they will have a higher appreciation for value of engineering content in running a business. Yes, upfront costs will go up but costs of manufacturing and sales will go down. Just imagine building an Adria Twin with a staple gun.

Recently someone posted video of B-class manufacturing site on this forum, manufacturing folks were proud of their insulation methodology but they have shown a complete lack of basics in heat transfer engineering. The mom and pop mentality of RV manufacturing in NA needs similar changes which the NA automotive industry was forced to do years back.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Because despite the 'baggage', Roadtrek is a very popular brand in NA. LTV could benefit from a dose of technology infusion with staff able to apply it to their Class C models.

I don't think the Roadtrek brand is 'toast'. I bet most casual buyers have no clue what is happening behind the scenes.

I agree that most buyers do not have a clue. And if the price is right, maybe it'd make sense for someone to buy Roadtrek's remains.

I do not understand what you mean by "dose of technology infusion with staff able to apply it". Under Hammil, Roadtrek deployed negative technology into their Bs. Hammil's idea of a lithium solution is junk and now a lot of customers are stuck with an inferior, semi-proprietary solution that will be a pain to maintain over the years if/when each one has problems.

My Trend's lithium setup with off the shelf parts from Victron Energy is far to superior to what Roadtrek's been selling. If LTV wants to offer a cutting edge, reliable lithium system all they have to do is call Volta and get that process started.

[wincrasher]

Well bear a few things in mind. RV sales are already retrenching and many think the US is heading for recession in 2019. This will make the players in the RV industry cautious about expansion in North America.

LTV has been hamstrung with production capacity. That's why they dropped vans in favor of the small Class C's they now build. It might be a fit, but they would be buying a player larger than them.

My guess is that the price is going to be way too high in relation to the debt load. If EHGNA is carrying $200+ million in debt, and a price north of $350M, that would be quite the stretch considering profits are in the range of $15-20M annually. Hymer would have to spin it off for the debt value to make the numbers work. Would they be willing to do that over a liquidation? Would they pour their own money into it to reduce debt and make it a more attractive acquisition? Exciting times waiting to find out!

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Glamper

I would think there might be some legal issues ahead? If it turns out there was fraud, forensic accounting might take some time, but the < 20 foot class B is pretty much Hymer/RT. And the millenials want the smaller vans (the millenials with $$) so that's a big market in NA. Someone has to rescue RoadTrek/Hymer in North America, Camper vans fastest growing segment in US RV industry | Motorhome Full Time

Most likely there is a lot of messy litigation going forward. We don't know if any chassis manufacturers or dealers or suppliers were cheated. The Hymer family may have actions against the executives named in the scheme. Not to mention any criminal charges against the participants. I would not want to be EHGNA's insurance carrier at this time, that is for sure!

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by B Eventually

I agree that most buyers do not have a clue. do not understand what you mean by "dose of technology infusion with staff able to apply it". Under Hammil, Roadtrek deployed negative technology into their Bs. Hammil's idea of a lithium solution is junk and now a lot of customers are stuck with an inferior, semi-proprietary solution that will be a pain to maintain over the years if/when each one has problems.

I believe there are Roadtrek owners (ponti33602) on this forum who own Roadtreks with the technology package and seem pleased. Have not heard regrets.

Are you suggesting current generation lithium solutions from Roadtrek are problematic?

[RossWilliams]

I think its important to remember that if the problems were limited to fake sales, they had no impact on Hymer NA's real value, only its perceived value. And I doubt that the scandal will matter much within a few months if Hymer NA is cranking out RV's and providing service.

The larger question, is what do the owners want to do. If they really want out of the business, then they are going to be looking for a buyer. If they have an interest in keeping the company, they have cash from the sale to Thor to invest if necessary. Assuming its still a viable company, they aren't likely to be selling at fire sale prices. Like the deal with Thor, they would be looking for a strategic partner where they thought the combination was greater than the parts.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

My guess is that the price is going to be way too high in relation to the debt load. If EHGNA is carrying $200+ million in debt, and a price north of $350M, that would be quite the stretch considering profits are in the range of $15-20M annually. Hymer would have to spin it off for the debt value to make the numbers work. Would they be willing to do that over a liquidation? Would they pour their own money into it to reduce debt and make it a more attractive acquisition? Exciting times waiting to find out!

This is a serious 'cluster'.

In a strange way I sense the Hymer family may eat a lot of the EHG NA debt to move on. They did pretty well from the sale to Thor and as you describe, we are entering into a economic slowdown - not a time to play hard-to-get.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I believe there are Roadtrek owners (ponti33602) on this forum who own Roadtreks with the technology package and seem pleased. Have not heard regrets.

Are you suggesting current generation lithium solutions from Roadtrek are problematic?

I think it is always going to be problematic for a company to try to develop new technology that is outside their area of expertise. Roadtrek was the only RV company to try to develop lithium power systems themselves and we have seen the results. Yes, the Ecotrek and VoltStart systems have stabilized somewhat compared to the problems seen in the past but there is really not any way for them to compete with the future developments from Volta, Victron, Li3, etc who actually have the expertise to develop these systems. Stick to your core competencies and do them well (they also dropped the ball there) and find good partners for areas where you don’t have any real capabilities...

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I think it is always going to be problematic for a company to try to develop new technology that is outside their area of expertise. Roadtrek was the only RV company to try to develop lithium power systems themselves and we have seen the results. Yes, the Ecotrek and VoltStart systems have stabilized somewhat compared to the problems seen in the past but there is really not any way for them to complete with the future developments from Volta, Victron, Li3, etc who actually have the expertise to develop these systems. Stick to your core competencies and do them well (they also dropped the ball there) and find good partners for areas where you don’t have any real capabilities...

Thanks for the update, I was under the impression, they were advancing beyond the difficult early period. I wonder who owns the technology? Is it a Roadtrek exclusive?

They were showing it at the Caravan Salon Düsseldorf a year ago.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Thanks for the update, I was under the impression, they were advancing beyond the difficult early period. I wonder who owns the technology? Is it a Roadtrek exclusive?

They were showing it at the Caravan Salon Düsseldorf a year ago.

As far as I know Ecotrek and Voltstart were owned by Roadtrek when they were acquired by EHG, not sure what happened after that...

[RossWilliams]

Is Roadtrek really building its own batteries and electrical components? If not, then the question is really which expertise is more important, experience with RV's and how they are used or expertise with lithium batteries. You need both, but the real business in batteries right now is for solar installations which have a lot fewer moving parts, space and weight limitations etc. New technology is certainly a challenge for any company, but that just means Roadtrek is ahead on the learning curve at this point.

[Bud]

"Roadtrek is ahead on the learning curve at this point"

and the evidence is? roadtrek failures? Please assist.