Could this be the end of Roadtrek???

[RossWilliams]

I suggest people read the headline of this thread and then ask whether this discussion is about Roadtrek managers or Roadtrek the company.

The managers people claim are the problem are gone, but the criticism of Roadtrek continues unabated as does the hostile speculation about its future. Its failure now would just be more evidence of how terrible those managers were and the damage they did.

It seems to me the problems identified publicly so far are entirely an internal issue. They have nothing to do with Roadtrek owners or the quality of the products Roadktrek produces or has produced in the past. And its unlikely to effect them directly in the future.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

The managers people claim are the problem are gone, but the criticism of Roadtrek continues unabated as does the hostile speculation about its future. Its failure now would just be more evidence of how terrible those managers were and the damage they did.

BREAKING NEWS....
I was not aware the investigating / audit was complete at EHG NA. I am willing to bet the leadership team in Germany wants to understand the depth of who participated in any embezzlement or malfeasance in the company.

em·bez·zle - verb
steal or misappropriate (money placed in one's trust or belonging to the organization for which one works).

The employees at EHG NA have every right to be concerned and speculate about their future (as the Thor acquisition continues with them not included - at the moment).

I think the discussions have been measured on this forum and the moderator has asked for civility - let's honor the request.

[booster]

The poor management at Roadtrek has had over a decade to create all the issues that have been, and are still, hurting the company, workers, and customers. I think it is not really very likely all those problems vaporized once the top management was removed. It will take, money, and lots of work to put Roadtrek back to being the company they once were when they earned a earned a stellar reputation.

[RossWilliams]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

BREAKING NEWS....
I am willing to bet the leadership team in Germany wants to understand the depth of who participated in any embezzlement or malfeasance in the company.

Nor managements child abuse, rape and murder. None of which seem to have been alleged and for which there is no evidence. But Jim Hammil is an evil person, so he must be capable of anything.

BTW Thanks Booster for making clear these are not just attacks on Hymer NA or its management but on Roadtrek as a brand. It was made by evil managers and the products they produced are flawed as result.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Nor managements child abuse, rape and murder. None of which seem to have been alleged and for which there is no evidence. But Jim Hammil is an evil person, so he must be capable of anything.

BTW Thanks Booster for making clear these are not just attacks on Hymer NA or its management but on Roadtrek as a brand. It was made by evil managers and the products they produced are flawed as result.

Yes, the products have been flawed too many times and the customers have not been treated well too many times at least since the time when the company was acquired from the family by the investment group. So the brand has been damaged, not by our discussion here, but by the poor management of the company in the past. There was hope by many, me included, that the Erwin Hymer Group purchase of Roadtrek would return the company to its prior days of glory as a family owned company with a focus on product and customers but that didn’t happen so here we are today. It doesn’t seem likely that a Thor acquisition of Roadtrek would improve the situation very much so the option of removing it from the acquisition and having Roadtrek independent again after it is divested by Erwin Hymer Group could result in something good or something not so good depending on the long term outcome...

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

BTW Thanks Booster for making clear these are not just attacks on Hymer NA or its management but on Roadtrek as a brand. It was made by evil managers and the products they produced are flawed as result.

And just where did come up with this idea? My comments that would use the name Roadtrek refer to Roadtrek, the company, which has been severely damaged by the crappy management. References to poor quality and other damage to customers or workers are not an attack on the brand, but are IMO an accurate portrayal of what has happened to the current product being produced. The "brand" as you seem to think I was attacking was not any kind of target at all, just the carnage the bad management has done to the brand. If you don't think that has been happening for the last ten years, you haven't been watching like the rest of us have. But that is right, you just started watching

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Nor managements child abuse, rape and murder. None of which seem to have been alleged and for which there is no evidence. But Jim Hammil is an evil person, so he must be capable of anything.

BTW Thanks Booster for making clear these are not just attacks on Hymer NA or its management but on Roadtrek as a brand. It was made by evil managers and the products they produced are flawed as result.

Ross, are you suggesting Jim Hammill eats babies?

That would explain so much about him and his management style...

[Novadude59]

I am new to this forum and until now have refrained from entering this debate. I don’t own a Roadtrek, nor do I know Jim Hammill. So I have nothing personally at stake here, but I’ve always liked Roadtreks and would like to see the brand survive.

Whether the company itself survives is a very open question. We don’t know for certain yet the nature of the “reporting irregularities,” but we do know that Thor considers them serious enough to remove the North American division from its acquisition of EHG. Moreover, EHG has yet to set forth a plan for the survival of the North America division as an independent company, and I doubt it can or will until its investigation is complete. Thor of course will have to sign off on any such plan as well — and I sure wouldn’t assume they will be willing to do much to ensure EHGNA survives as a competitor. So this means EHGNA is going to be in limbo at best for at least several months.

In principle, I agree with Ross that the scandal, at least as has been reported, has nothing to do with the quality of the products and thus should not affect the brand or the company’s future. And maybe that’s the way it would play out if EHG were not in the process of being acquired. But given the reputational and legal clouds over EHGNA, and uncertainty over whether and how it will emerge from the Thor acquisition, the reality, as I see it, is that the company and the brand are harmed. We just don’t know how badly in the long run.

EHG’s official cone of silence isn’t helping. Their communications to date have been over-lawyered and, at least in my view, confuse more than enlighten. (What does “reporting irregularities” mean, anyway?) In the absence of real information, rumors and innuendo and speculation fill the vacuum. Which of course further harms the brand and heightens uncertainty over the future.

I do hope the company and the Roadtrek brand survive. But I think it’s almost certain to be a long and difficult road ahead.

[avanti]

My feeling about RT "the brand" is exactly the same as for Airstream: Both are fabled brands that have been horribly sullied by many years of shoddy build quality. They both offer interesting design, quality appliances, and generally good materials. But in both cases, quality out of the factory is just inexcusable. In any other market, they both would be out of business. But the standards of the US RV industry are so low that they are probably being rational not to care.

With GWV gone and LTV out of the market, the only remaining quality off the shelf B upfitters are PW and Winnebago, and the latter mostly aims toward lower price/quality finishes. There is always a cohort of small startup upfitters. (I could imagine a scenario in which a rebooted RT might become one of them.). Let's hope that a few of them succeed. It is a tough row to hoe, though.

[markopolo]

If Roadtrek were separated from the remaining Hymer umbrella we're still probably looking at a company with maybe $100 million annual sales potential or more (just my guess). Small compared to the big companies but still a good sized enterprise. Things would have to be really bad for that to just completely disappear.

All of the Erwin Hymer Group North America brands combined (such as Hymer, Sunlight, Carado, Roadtrek) had 29.1% of the Class B Marketplace according to this report: https://www.rvbusiness.com/blog/ssi-...11-months.html

Roadtrek might account for 50% of the Hymer NA totals (again, just a guess). Could the Hymer brands disappear from North America?

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If Roadtrek were separated from the remaining Hymer umbrella we're still probably looking at a company with maybe $100 million annual sales potential or more (just my guess). Small compared to the big companies but still a good sized enterprise. Things would have to be really bad for that to just completely disappear.

All of the Erwin Hymer Group North America brands combined (such as Hymer, Sunlight, Carado, Roadtrek) had 29.1% of the Class B Marketplace according to this report: https://www.rvbusiness.com/blog/ssi-...11-months.html

Roadtrek might account for 50% of the Hymer NA totals (again, just a guess). Could the Hymer brands disappear from North America?

I would think that if Thor buys all the rest of Hymer other than the NA part, they would own the non Roadtrek names and designs, so I can't imagine they would allow them to continue with a born again Roadtrek.


The lawyers will probably make more sorting this out than the companies do.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If Roadtrek were separated from the remaining Hymer umbrella we're still probably looking at a company with maybe $100 million annual sales potential or more (just my guess). Small compared to the big companies but still a good sized enterprise. Things would have to be really bad for that to just completely disappear.

These situations are so hard to predict. It depends on how dependent Hymer NA is on Hymer (parent) back office functions? There are credit lines and many other backoffice functions that may have changed since the acquisition with Hymer. Hymer NA has grown in size since the acquisition of Roadtrek and may need capital from the German parents to operate effectively. There was a claim recent layoffs were due to slowing sales.

The brand names Carrado, Hymer, etc are owned by Hymer
(parent). A standalone Hymer NA would probably revert back to Roadtrek to avoid confusion with a the Hymer division under Thor.

Let's not forget the potential theft claimed as well. How could the German owners not put financial claims against the assets to recoup their losses? The family that owns Hymer NA wants out of the RV business so another buyer would have to take over Roadtrek and re-establish stability and those potential stolen assets would come out of the value of the surviving company.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by avanti

My feeling about RT "the brand" is exactly the same as for Airstream: Both are fabled brands that have been horribly sullied by many years of shoddy build quality. They both offer interesting design, quality appliances, and generally good materials. But in both cases, quality out of the factory is just inexcusable. In any other market, they both would be out of business. But the standards of the US RV industry are so low that they are probably being rational not to care.

With GWV gone and LTV out of the market, the only remaining quality off the shelf B upfitters are PW and Winnebago, and the latter mostly aims toward lower price/quality finishes...

That certainly hits my opinion on the situation as a whole. Having owned a high quality GWV and LTV, switching to a Roadtrek earned me the question from my dealer tech as to whether I had lost my mind. But for those of who want gas under 20 ft, RT is the only option left other than a small builder.

All of which leads to a big question that nobody has mentioned much in all these discussion here and on Facebook. While EHGNA has been selling a significant number of rigs, one wonders how much that 6 year warranty's cost is affecting their actual bottom line. As a family corporation, the actual bottom line of that branch of EHG is naturally a secret. Add to that the investment in the larger factory for the Hymer lines, and the purchase of a third building which came out in one of the articles certainly gives me pause as to the financial viability of the company. That is even ignoring any executive skimming...

I'm sure there is someone here who will suggest that this makes me a rumormonger, but as an accountant, I think it is a detail that should give any new purchaser pause... and I personally would avoid purchasing any new rigs without a significant price drop and avoidance of the more glitchy systems (like voltstart and Ecotrek - which I did) and some research into 3rd party extended warranty plans. I can afford to fix my own rig if I have to, and I have a good dealer, but so many are not in that position.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by mumkin

While EHGNA has been selling a significant number of rigs, one wonders how much that 6 year warranty's cost is affecting their actual bottom line.

Good question. Automotive companies set aside funds under an accounting line item called 'warranty reserve' based on a projection of historical warranty claims. I'm pretty sure the Thor M&A team reviewed what Hymer NA has set aside for projected warranty costs and that did not scare them away from the deal- - pre scandal.

Speculation: It would only be a major concern if those warranty costs were being hidden under different accounting lines i.e.: "goodwill" or simply not accounted for fully - thus understating the future liability.

[gregmchugh]

Assuming Roadtrek survives as an independent company, I would think the best option would be to not try to compete with Winnebago in the value market and aim for the market at a higher price which currently only has Pleasureway and Airstream as volume Class B producers. Return to their roots with high quality construction and high quality customer service. Limit the number of models and allow some more options within each model to give some level of customization for the customer.

I would think the second plant being used for Hymer travel trailer production would be something that Thor might want to acquire since these units fill a need that is not being filled for a lightweight trailer with quality construction. Maybe it continues as a Hymer brand or gets integrated into Airstream. I wouldn’t think that Thor would want these trailers produced by anyone else and it wouldn’t make sense for the new Roadtrek to do both Class B and travel trailer production.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Assuming Roadtrek survives as an independent company, I would think the best option would be to not try to compete with Winnebago in the value market and aim for the market at a higher price which currently only has Pleasureway and Airstream as volume Class B producers. Return to their roots with high quality construction and high quality customer service. Limit the number of models and allow some more options within each model to give some level of customization for the customer.

Sign me up for a Roadtrek 2.0 organization that is quasi custom and fulfills a serious product gap. A company that has the quality of an Advanced RV (if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it) $$$$$ and the current premium priced Roadtreks $$.

Focus on quality and attention to detail but more volume to not warrant a $280K price point.

[booster]

Mumkin reminds of us a very good point about the legacy warranty issues and other costs that they are locked in to going forward, barring a bankruptcy.


IIRC all of these were mentioned early on in the discussion also, in the long lists of "what ifs", but got buried by the attention to the more sinister aspects of what is going on, plus pages and pages of less relevant "stuff".


As she says, when this all progresses to the point of a decision being made, either by Roadtrek, a buyer, or a court, relating to continuing in business that is when it will quickly rise to be the top, and nearly only, relevant factor.


I think we all have to keep that in mind, as the other stuff will get resolved one way or the other, but it is the money that will determine long term survival for Roadtrek.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

My feeling about RT "the brand" is exactly the same as for Airstream: Both are fabled brands that have been horribly sullied by many years of shoddy build quality. They both offer interesting design, quality appliances, and generally good materials. But in both cases, quality out of the factory is just inexcusable. ……………………….

In 2008 we evaluated camping trailers and the Bigfoot, Oliver and Airstream brands surfaced to our final choices, all 3 good quality trailers with Oliver leading a pack. Oliver didn’t pass due to their limited distribution, too far for any service. Airstream aluminum skin repair of minimum $4K moved us to the Bigfoot purchase. We also had previous experience with the Bigfoot Camper still built under founder management. I was impressed with Airstream trailers fit and finish, after getting the Bigfoot trailer we realized that it wasn’t the quality level as our previously experienced with our Bigfoot camper.

By the end of 2012 we made the decision to move to a camper van. We look at Airstream B-class, wow, it was Mr. Hyde in comparison to their trailers. I remember their high pantry tilted with the bottom sticking out by an inch.
We also look at Roadtrek, the lack of fit and finish was hurting. The screen door’s Velcro was well attached to the screen only, salesperson was trying to getting Velcro attached to the chassis in front of us.

So, we did DIY.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

...I would think the second plant being used for Hymer travel trailer production would be something that Thor might want to acquire since these units fill a need that is not being filled for a lightweight trailer with quality construction. Maybe it continues as a Hymer brand or gets integrated into Airstream.

There is some precedent for this since Thor acquired Nest Caravans in 2016 and subsequently added the Nest molded fiberglass trailer to the Airstream lineup. They also upped Nest's interior finish level while boosting the MSRP from $29,900 to $45,900.

The Hymer Touring trailer would have both slightly larger interior capacity and lower towing weight than either of the Airstream Nest or Basecamp compact trailers currently offered.

[wincrasher]

Some of you demonstrate a lack of understanding how business actually works in this day and age.

If any board should care about a historic or iconic brand, you'd think that board of Sears would. You might even think they care about the fortunes of 50,000 employees that depend on them. But they don't. Their preference is to liquidate the company and shut it down. To extract the maximum value of it's assets to distribute to their creditors.

I don't think the board at Hymer feels any differently. If they were smart, they have extracted all the intellectual property out of Roadtrek, and placed as much debt into it as they can get away with legally. They will collapse it so they can extract the maximum price out of Thor as they can. I would not be surprised that the brand "Roadtrek" is the only thing sold out of a bankruptcy filing. It may have some residual value to someone who wants to build vans. I doubt anyone would want to buy these Canadian production facilities, especially if they are saddled with alot of debt - there are more skilled workers and facilities in the States that would be far less expensive.

Another thing to consider is we are on the precipice of a business cycle. US is moving into recession in 2019 and RV sales will retrench. Not the time to add capacity or make a big acquisition.

The writing is on the wall. Roadtrek is heading to liquidation.