Could this be the end of Roadtrek???

[wincrasher]

Ugh. The more this idea is reposted and discussed, the more people would will come in and say, "you know I read somewhere that Thor intentionally scuttled the deal and intentionally killed Roadtrek to protect Airstream." It's just ridiculous and against their own interests to even consider that this could even be a remote possibility.

What killed Roadtrek is that the liabilities far exceeded the profit potential of the brand. It's really that simple. The annual profits could not pay the debt service, let alone invest in improving the product and expanding. Especially with the RV industry headed for recession, which Thor is fairly exposed considering how many trailers they build.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Ugh. The more this idea is reposted and discussed, the more people would will come in and say, "you know I read somewhere that Thor intentionally scuttled the deal and intentionally killed Roadtrek to protect Airstream." It's just ridiculous and against their own interests to even consider that this could even be a remote possibility.

What killed Roadtrek is that the liabilities far exceeded the profit potential of the brand. It's really that simple. The annual profits could not pay the debt service, let alone invest in improving the product and expanding. Especially with the RV industry headed for recession, which Thor is fairly exposed considering how many trailers they build.

And if there are some bad guys involved, if.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Ugh. The more this idea is reposted and discussed, the more people would will come in and say, "you know I read somewhere that Thor intentionally scuttled the deal and intentionally killed Roadtrek to protect Airstream." It's just ridiculous and against their own interests to even consider that this could even be a remote possibility.

What killed Roadtrek is that the liabilities far exceeded the profit potential of the brand. It's really that simple. The annual profits could not pay the debt service, let alone invest in improving the product and expanding. Especially with the RV industry headed for recession, which Thor is fairly exposed considering how many trailers they build.

I would bet the conspiracy theory would trace back to some of the Hammill/Roadtrek "fan people", like Wendland and most of the Facebook group. Anything sounds good to them as long as it makes there adulation and defensive attacks all this time seem OK and without admitting they were likely used and thrown away, just like the employees and vendors have been.

[TerrierTude]

Wendland actually made reference to this conspiracy theory in his post on the situation!

But I don't see how anyone could see Thor at the root of this. EHNA, in an admission in their own press release, noted that they found "accounting irregularities" that could be in the neighborhood of $100 million and included falsified VIN numbers and van sales. Also company members' relatives on the payroll in "no show" jobs.l

Now Thor could have uncovered this. Since they were planning to buy the whole concern, it's a safe bet they had their accountants all over the books doing due diligence. That's just good business practice.

THe employees who have shown up on some of the threads have been pointing fingers solidly at the management tactics of the three amigos. Besides, you don't embezzle $100 million in a few days. This must have been going on for some years.

[Laura]

I have to say I am very thankful that I dodged a bullet by canceling my order for the new Agile. Devastating for everyone that’s been swept up in this mess!

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Laura

I have to say I am very thankful that I dodged a bullet by canceling my order for the new Agile. Devastating for everyone that’s been swept up in this mess!

You really did!
.

[gregmchugh]

Posted on Facebook Roadtrek and Hymer Owners Group by Tony Pineda who along with Dan Nealy is an independent RT service provider on the West coast (both get very good reviews)...

Please don’t tell anyone the following:
I’ve been performing Lithium battery repairs for over a year now and have a stock of amp sensors, BMS and other related parts.
I can purchase lithium’s and inverters from the same people that Roadtrek did.
I have lithium’s in stock
I have inverters in stock
I’m fully certified with Alde and stock parts
I have all the diagnostic tools for lithium’s, Espar and VoltStart
I also do any and all custom work
I can repair some GUs and have them in stock
I work closely with all the suppliers to continue to supply parts and service to Roadtrek owners
Remember, it’s a secret

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Posted on Facebook Roadtrek and Hymer Owners Group by Tony Pineda who along with Dan Nealy is an independent RT service provider on the West coast (both get very good reviews)...

Please don’t tell anyone the following:
I’ve been performing Lithium battery repairs for over a year now and have a stock of amp sensors, BMS and other related parts.
I can purchase lithium’s and inverters from the same people that Roadtrek did.
I have lithium’s in stock
I have inverters in stock
I’m fully certified with Alde and stock parts
I have all the diagnostic tools for lithium’s, Espar and VoltStart
I also do any and all custom work
I can repair some GUs and have them in stock
I work closely with all the suppliers to continue to supply parts and service to Roadtrek owners
Remember, it’s a secret

This has to be a relief for a lot of lithium battery owners, although it will not be cheap at least they can be fixed it appears.


This is the first time, at least that I remember, that we have seen reference to amp sensors in the Roadtrek system. I wonder what they use it for, and if it could be used for a real battery monitor of some sort.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

This has to be a relief for a lot of lithium battery owners, although it will not be cheap at least they can be fixed it appears.


This is the first time, at least that I remember, that we have seen reference to amp sensors in the Roadtrek system. I wonder what they use it for, and if it could be used for a real battery monitor of some sort.

I always suspected that there were amp sensors in there but they never ending up using them to support real battery monitoring through the network port on the battery modules.

[booster]

With all the weird stuff that had been going on around Roadtrek, DW asked if Peter Lange was still there the other day (before the receivership) as he was our brightspot in our dealings with Roadtrek and issues in getting things fixed in the 2009 era. We got a chance to meet with him when we took a tour in 2009 also, when they were fixing some issues that they wouldn't authorize the dealer to do. Truly a knowledgeable and decent person in every aspect, based on our experiences.


I just remembered she asked and looked him up on Linkedin, and he was still there at the end, it appears.


What I did find interesting is that he showed as a direct employee for 30 years, and then was shown in the same job but listed as contract starting in 2017. There has been a lot of that done in businesses lately, it appears, especially with long term employees and new owners. They are relatively certain the person won't leave after that long, they get rid of the person getting vacation or benefits, and when they do dump them they have avoided the severance pay which can be significant for long time employees.


If this is what it appears, I would certainly call it a crappy way to treat a stellar performer. Of course, there is always a chance they did it to be able to pay him better than the Hymer pay grade would dictate, which also can happen when new owners come in.


We certainly wish Peter the best going forward, as this has to be tough after 32 years.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Posted on Facebook Roadtrek and Hymer Owners Group by Tony Pineda who along with Dan Nealy is an independent RT service provider on the West coast (both get very good reviews)… Remember, it’s a secret

Do you have the business name and location? If it's not classified, that is...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Do you have the business name and location? If it's not classified, that is...

Not classified info, he was making a joke...

He posts regularly on the Facebook Roadtrek & Hymer Owner Group. His business is in Southern CA. He and Dan Nealy, also in CA, are the go to people for RT service. I don’t have contact info for Tony. I believe the business name is Premier RV Service...

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Not classified info, he was making a joke...

He posts regularly on the Facebook Roadtrek & Hymer Owner Group. His business is in Southern CA. He and Dan Nealy, also in CA, are the go to people for RT service. I don’t have contact info for Tony. I believe the business name is Premier RV Service...

Yup. So was I.

Thanks for the lead. I'll do a search to see if I can find them, mainly to have on file as a back-up. I have a reasonably competent local RV tech, and mine doesn't have the proprietary technology. But the only (former) RT dealer in AZ is La Mesa, and I have no intention of taking it there. Ever. I have family in SoCal, so we're out there a lot.

This RT landed in my lap when my mother decided she was done with RVing. She visited a few years back shortly after she bought it, and I remember being appalled at the number of fit-and-finish issues, some of which I helped her straighten out.

I feel terrible for recent buyers that got caught in this very sad situation. I do see an opportunity for skilled DIYers priced out of this segment to get some pretty good deals on new and used Class B's. If there's a silver lining, that's it.

[wincrasher]

If I were an Ecotrek owner, I would probably look into the practicalities of replacing the system with the Victron system. Since it also has battery modules, it may be the most practical, way to replace Ecotrek with the least amount of pain.

Of course you wouldn't want to do that until you got to the point of not being able to get parts or a technician that knows what they are doing.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If I were an Ecotrek owner, I would probably look into the practicalities of replacing the system with the Victron system. Since it also has battery modules, it may be the most practical, way to replace Ecotrek with the least amount of pain.

Of course you wouldn't want to do that until you got to the point of not being able to get parts or a technician that knows what they are doing.

The batteries should be somewhat normal and common, so if they are in decent shape, perhaps a Lithionics or some other BMS could be fitted, and maybe a new charger and monitor. Could save a lot that way and also get rid of the parasitic losses.

[mumkin]

A couple points...

Peter was still working with them though living elsewhere in Canada. I have emailed him a few times with questions. Great guy... along with Leo and Sean who were always at the end of the phone or emails to smooth things for us buyers over the years.

Tony Pineda's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Premier-...4324684/posts/

My pondering on blame for the death of RT goes about 50/50 to the top 3 who were involved with playing with the books and Hymer. The question which should eventually be answered is whether they were cooking the books for PR reasons (We sell the most Class B's) or stealing money.

Hymer first because they didn't catch and fix the above. Second, they expanded so much so fast... and all on credit. That pretty much guaranteed the bankruptcy. Criminality can be overcome with a company that obviously is flush with cash in Europe.

The conspiracy theory? Maybe... We know that Thor's audit found the issues. I suspect that they very quickly wanted out of EHGNA. Did they and Hymer then conspire to stand back and let the company fail? Probably. There is a new Delaware LLC (limited liability company) just formed... surely by the Hymer family... that has purchased EHGNA. Is Thor just lurking on the edges waiting to grab what they want when the bankruptcy goes through? Likely only the Roadtrek name and papers?

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by booster

The batteries should be somewhat normal and common, so if they are in decent shape, perhaps a Lithionics or some other BMS could be fitted, and maybe a new charger and monitor. Could save a lot that way and also get rid of the parasitic losses.

I would lean towards wanting a networked system that works together and gives you an off the shelf information display.

The Lithionics/Xantrax system, with separate suppliers, seems to be integrated pretty well on the Coachmen's. Victron has battery/inverter/BMS integration as well. And then there is Volta, which is the king of the hill on this, but pretty bulky - don't see this as an option for Roadtrek's.

One nice thing about the Lithionics system is that they offer batteries of various sizes you can daisy chain together, as well as outboard BMS modules. So you can literally pigeon-hole their gear into the spaces you may have. The problem I see is the control system - is it Xantrax, or you have to select another 3rd party like Silverleaf?

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Hymer first because they didn't catch and fix the above. Second, they expanded so much so fast... and all on credit. That pretty much guaranteed the bankruptcy. Criminality can be overcome with a company that obviously is flush with cash in Europe.

The conspiracy theory? Maybe...

A couple of clarifications...

Hymer has a track record for everyone to see. They have grown through acquisition for well over a decade and there is no history of the other deals 'running off the rails'.

Hymer wanted a NA presence and considered numerous schemes to get there (documented on this site). What initially started as a contracted arrangement for Roadtrek to assemble Hymers evolved into an acquisition.

I would suggest anyone to go back to that period and re-review what was happening with Roadtrek and their financial condition at the time. Industrial Opportunity Partners had Roadtrek as a investment and brokered a deal with Hymer to not contract work but buy it. I am re-reviewing the purchase terms but I don't recall much talk about due diligence and audits before the deal was consummated. Roadtrek (capital wise) was relatively small in comparison. In fact, I remember talk of the investment firm looking to sell because the ROI was not going as they had hoped.

Speculation: I think Hymer moved fast on the purchase and was tired of exploring ways to get a foothold in NA (1st mistake)

Hymer did not install a corporate equivalent to Jim Hammill in NA and allowed him to keep doing what he was doing () in a small and close knit circle without much daily oversight. (2nd mistake)

With the passing of the founder, the family heir apparent seemed to not want to serve as his father did and sought out buyers globally (on the record).

Bottomline: When people stay in roles for long periods in companies where governance and oversight is weak, vendor kickbacks, embezzlement, and fraud become an opportunistic crime.

The three Roadtrek principles have said little to nothing about their innocence or the situation - it speaks volumes. Nothing is precluding them from speaking now other than potential legal jeopardy.

[gerrym51]

You can't keep replacing ecotrek batteries and systems that don't work and not run up debts.

[TerrierTude]

But I have heard from people who replaced the Roadtrek proprietary Ecotrek and upgraded to a Magnum inverter and all their problems stopped. My impression is that those were the two major flaws in the system.