Chevy Chassis Front End Shake

[Stevemo]

I parked my van for the winter with a problem that is common on the 2003+ Chevy chassis. The front end shakes when you press the brakes. From my experience it can be very violent and make the vehicle dangerous so I need to fix it when I pull the van out of storage in the spring.

Who else here has had this problem and also worked through it?

This is a 2004 Roadtrek 190P 3500 with about 100k miles on it. I changed all of the brake hoses, had it aligned, checked the suspension except for a few parts, and the brakes are in very good condition. I have also determined that cupped wheels are a symptom of the problem and not the cause of the problem. Rotating your tires will help for a while but it will just munch up the fresh tires and get bad again.

I'm pretty sure the issue is related to the steering box, pitman arm, idler arm, or maybe even the splines on the steering box that join to the pitman arm.

This video sort of shows the shaking of the wheel. If you ever run into this park immediately. You'll be dead if you try to drive in the mountains with this issue as you have to pick between steering and breaking as they won't work together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsLThnK18s0

[booster]

Originally Posted by Stevemo

I parked my van for the winter with a problem that is common on the 2003+ Chevy chassis. The front end shakes when you press the brakes. From my experience it can be very violent and make the vehicle dangerous so I need to fix it when I pull the van out of storage in the spring.

Who else here has had this problem and also worked through it?

This is a 2004 Roadtrek 190P 3500 with about 100k miles on it. I changed all of the brake hoses, had it aligned, checked the suspension except for a few parts, and the brakes are in very good condition. I have also determined that cupped wheels are a symptom of the problem and not the cause of the problem. Rotating your tires will help for a while but it will just munch up the fresh tires and get bad again.

I'm pretty sure the issue is related to the steering box, pitman arm, idler arm, or maybe even the splines on the steering box that join to the pitman arm.

This video sort of shows the shaking of the wheel. If you ever run into this park immediately. You'll be dead if you try to drive in the mountains with this issue as you have to pick between steering and breaking as they won't work together.

If it only does it when the brakes get hot it most likely is the dreaded juttering we hear about in the last generation Chevies. Cure for them usually is to sand the rotors or replace them with high qaulity ones and install top line semi metallic pads, usually designated by various names like heavy or super duty, light truck, police compound, etc. The juddering is caused from and unever transfer layer from the pads to the rotors and is typical in the ceramic pad setups from the factory.


If it does it all the time, you could have rusty or warped rotors, or some steering parts issue as mentioned, but steering parts need an input shake from brakes or tires to get started so probably more than just steering parts. Be sure to check for wheel bearing slop with both the pre 2003 adjustable bearings or the unit bearing later. It is fairly common for loose ball joint shakes and/or loose bearings to actually get better with the brakes applied.



Be aware the shaking could be coming from the rear and a stuck parking brake can sometimes contribute.

[Stevemo]

It takes a bit of heat to get the wheels shaking. If you stab it hard it may be OK until the next application of the brakes and then you've got a problem. Varying the front axle weight also effects the behaviour. Running at 16k pounds with the front up in the air is better than unloaded.

This problem first arose when I fried the brakes in the mountains and warped the rotors. That was a disaster but new front pads & rotors fixed the issue for about 4 years. The front brakes are still looking OK but I guess I'll replace them as it's an easy job. The metal in the rotors isn't rusted but it doesn't look like pure machined steel like rotors normally look like after some use. It's kind of weird. The back brakes are new and excellent.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Stevemo

It takes a bit of heat to get the wheels shaking. If you stab it hard it may be OK until the next application of the brakes and then you've got a problem. Varying the front axle weight also effects the behaviour. Running at 16k pounds with the front up in the air is better than unloaded.

This problem first arose when I fried the brakes in the mountains and warped the rotors. That was a disaster but new front pads & rotors fixed the issue for about 4 years. The front brakes are still looking OK but I guess I'll replace them as it's an easy job. The metal in the rotors isn't rusted but it doesn't look like pure machined steel like rotors normally look like after some use. It's kind of weird. The back brakes are new and excellent.

Rotor appearance will be different depending on the pads you have on. With ceramic pads they will normally be close to looking like clean steel and be somewhat shiny. With the good quality semi metallics the rotors will be duller grey to grey green color where the pads run and look almost like they were painted or sprayed with moly dry lube.

[Stevemo]

Thank you for the input, I've attached a couple screenshots from some video I took in the fall that sort of show the condition of the rotors.

You'll see a bunch of aftermarket parts but at this point I'm convinced they aren't the issue. I am going to do a final review of the lift kit once I've got this shake sorted out.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Stevemo

Thank you for the input, I've attached a couple screenshots from some video I took in the fall that sort of show the condition of the rotors.

You'll see a bunch of aftermarket parts but at this point I'm convinced they aren't the issue. I am going to do a final review of the lift kit once I've got this shake sorted out.

Pix are a bit hard to tell if the front has uneven shiny spot or just varying reflections, but may be uneven. Fairly rusty though, winter driven in salt? Rear looks to be nice and uniform.


How does the back of the rotors look as that would give an indication of stuck caliper or other oddness.


The fact that when the front has light load on it the shaking goes down is pretty interesting as the alignment will change quite a bit with the height change. It will probably go negative camber probably get a toe in change also. If toe happens to land right at zero you can sometimes get a wobbly shake in the steering, so toe might be a place to start and can easily be checked with two people and a tape measure.


Just out of curiosity what lube was used on the guide pins when the brakes were done? We just recently found out the the old school brake greases like Raybestos swell the rubber parts now. They didn't in the past, as far as I saw. I just had to redo the rubber parts in the van and DW's CRV as I had rebuilt them and used the Raybestos grease. Sil-glyde is now seeming to be the top choice or a similar silicone grease, except on the metal to metal parts that slide with no rubber around them.

[Stevemo]

The rust on this vehicle is from being parked in gravel driveways, I don't think it has been on the road in the winter.
The surface on the front rotors would be good enough on anything less than a Ferrari but it won't wear down to plain steel. It stayed like this over a 3000 mile summer!
In the case of the van the front brakes are from NAPA and about 4 years old, the back brakes are from a GM dealership and 1 year old.
I've been using Carquest Platinum Wearever brakes lately and they come with some snotty green grease for the pins. It isn't the nice translucent colour you'd expect to see in a quality grease but it seems to work initially.
I also use the orange ceramic grease from Permatex for brakes and it's fine for steel on steel or on the pins. I actually pulled the front pads on the van and regreased the slides with ceramic grease when I took the video above. This helped as I was having the front driver pad hang briefly after application but it was possibly related to a bad hose.
Febi also makes a ceramic grease for diesel fuel injectors and glow plugs. I suspect it's related to the Permatex stuff but it's white. Just searching on the web shows me Febi make a variant for brakes too.
I have a 20 year old tube of sil-glyde...never seems to be in reach when I need it.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by Stevemo

I've been using Carquest Platinum Wearever brakes lately and they come with some snotty green grease for the pins. It isn't the nice translucent colour you'd expect to see in a quality grease but it seems to work initially.
I also use the orange ceramic grease from Permatex for brakes and it's fine for steel on steel or on the pins. I actually pulled the front pads on the van and regreased the slides with ceramic grease when I took the video above. This helped as I was having the front driver pad hang briefly after application but it was possibly related to a bad hose.
Febi also makes a ceramic grease for diesel fuel injectors and glow plugs. I suspect it's related to the Permatex stuff but it's white. Just searching on the web shows me Febi make a variant for brakes too.
I have a 20 year old tube of sil-glyde...never seems to be in reach when I need it.

The "snotty green" color sound like the color of the older Permatex Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube that caused problems for me. It swelled the rubber guide pin sleeve so much I could not move the caliper by hand. Permatex should remove this product from the market as it is dangerous.

I rebuilt (booster also) the calipers with new pin sleeves and dust caps. I used the orange color Permatex Silicone Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant as it is supposedly 100% silicone, which is what you want. 3m makes a 100% silicone product that is good also.

I will second booster's suggestion to go with a high quality semi-metallic pad with good rotors, especially on the front. My braking distances went down considerably after the switch.

Regarding the shakes, I think any looseness in steering or suspension components will make it worse. I had a worn idler arm, so I replaced it, along with the pitman arm and tie rod ends. THe ball joints seemed fine so I did not change those. I did this at about 50k miles. No problems for me, though I do keep my speeds down and use engine braking in the mountains as much as possible. ALso, I recommend lubing all the front end components every oil change, which is about 5000 miles for me. I am at 125k miles now and mostly everything is fine. On rare occasions I get a very mild low frequency steering wheel shake when hard braking on downhill run. I usually just downshift and do short but hard applications of the brakes to get the speed down.

I am amazed the NHTSA has not had a recall on this issue.

[Buc22]

Front brakes are in the near future for my RT for the brake shake

[ChicagoTom]

Don't buy aftermarket. Your issue IS the rotors and possibly pads. I have an 08 with 135k and no issues. Biggest expense since owning it was the brakes. Spent $2500 and glad I did. You have around 9000 plus pounds on a 3500 chassis, don't cheap out on your brakes! BTW, recently replaced the original spark plugs and wires at around 130k.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTom

Don't buy aftermarket. Your issue IS the rotors and possibly pads. I have an 08 with 135k and no issues. Biggest expense since owning it was the brakes. Spent $2500 and glad I did. You have around 9000 plus pounds on a 3500 chassis, don't cheap out on your brakes! BTW, recently replaced the original spark plugs and wires at around 130k.

Are you saying that people should put the OEM ceramic pads in when they get new brakes or have trouble?



If so, I would point out that the stock pads have the major contributor to the problems with Chevy "juddering" which has even been gotten rid of by just changing to a top end semi metallic pad. The rotors have been consistently shown not to be the major cause of the juddering. The real cause is the poor brake pad material transfer to the rotor which causes hot spots and cooler spots on heavy use causing variable friction around the rotor. It is not warped rotors, it is the material transfer issue.



The original rotors have shown to be of good quality, but like all this kind of stufff, it could vary by year or with the OEM or aftermarket replacements having changed over time.


Of course, nobody should cheap out on brakes for any vehicle.


Use the best pads you can get and make sure they are well suited to the vehicle and the use of it. IMO, OEM pads and rotors may or may not be the best choice.


Make sure you use the correct grease in any area that includes rubber parts, particularly the guide pins, boots, sliders, etc for the calipers.


Change the brake fluid at least very 3 years, and I like to go to every 2 years on vehicles that see big temp swings that can generate more moisture in the fluid. I use Dot 4 in everything as it is not much more cost and has better properties.


Be absolutely certain you break in the new pads and rotors properly to the manufacturer's instructions. This tends to be either not known or ignored by many shops and DIYers. IMO in heavy vehicles and with semi metallic pads in particular I think this is critical in getting good performance.


Just for reference, I have only had two sets of brakes that I considered of poor quality and performance in over 50 years of driving. By far the worst were the OEM pads and rotors in DW's 2009 Honda CRV (Japan built) that corroded the rotors in only a couple of hours when parked wet and within a year had huge corrosion pad imprints on the rotors. A change to select aftermarket parts based on feedback from other CRV owners got her a set of brakes with no grinding after parked and wonderful feel. Feel was also way to sensitive with overly easy locking. The second inadequate brake setup was our 2007 Roadtrek Chevy 190P. Juddering and higher than needed effort both got fixed by changing to semi metallic pads and high end rotors from the aftermarket.

[ChicagoTom]

The 3500 has a different pad. Do your own DD. I don't have any issues with my OEM. I'm not sure what they are, but I am sure they're for the 3500. Went over this with my mechanic, but maybe you know more then he does. 3500 has heavier duty brakes, rotors, trans, etc. Definitely different than a 1500 or 2500

[booster]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTom

The 3500 has a different pad. Do your own DD. I don't have any issues with my OEM. I'm not sure what they are, but I am sure they're for the 3500. Went over this with my mechanic, but maybe you know more then he does. 3500 has heavier duty brakes, rotors, trans, etc. Definitely different than a 1500 or 2500

Yep, the 3500 brakes are different than a van that weighs less, not surprising or odd.



I would suggest you go back into the archives and read a some of the Chevy brake problem discussions on this forum. I think you will find some very interesting reading, research, testing, and results in them. This has gone on for nearly a decade on this forum so lots of information.


Without going into detail of the past discussions, I will tell you that I, personally, called nearly every brake pad manufacturer, high performance race brake shop, and truck specialist I could find to see what they said. I always insisted on getting to talk to engineers or test technicians rather than sales reps or customer service.


WITHOUT EXCEPTION they all said that for heavy duty use as I described a max weight Chevy van class b the correct pad was a high quality semi metallic pad on a good rotor. The OEM pads are ceramic, which they knew and said would give exactly the problems we were seeing because of the poor material transfer characteristics.


I have no idea how knowledgeable your mechanic is and it doesn't really matter anyway, but I will go with the true experts on this one, especially since the results for all of us here and other places have been outstanding.


If you have some information, testing, data, tech papers, whatever, I would encourage you to post them to back up the claims of OEM being the cure rather than the problem. I would love to be enlightened!

[Stevemo]

I found the invoice from when I had the work done. It looks like the front brakes lasted 29k miles over 5 years before getting the shakes. Note that the parts are not worn out in any way and that this van is parked outdoors with no winter usage.

The part # for the pads works out to NAPA premium ceramic pads.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/RSSSS7652X

The rotors were also NAPA premium.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBO48880000

I would not recommend this combination based on my experience. I found that the material the rotors were made out of was poor compared to premium OEM or CarQuest rotors.

[rowiebowie]

I only experienced the brake shudder once, and that was after hard and repeated brake application on a deceptively steep and long downhill road in Death Valley. Very unplesant.

I missed any warning signs (if there were any) and once gathering speed down the hill, it was too late to downshift below 3rd gear (6-speed) as it caused very high rpms which I was afraid was bad for the transmission.

But in an effort to save my brakes, my question is this. Will extended high rpm's for several minutes hurt the transmission and what would be an upper limit of rpm's to try and stay under while using the transmission to slow?

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

I only experienced the brake shudder once, and that was after hard and repeated brake application on a deceptively steep and long downhill road in Death Valley. Very unplesant.

I missed any warning signs (if there were any) and once gathering speed down the hill, it was too late to downshift below 3rd gear (6-speed) as it caused very high rpms which I was afraid was bad for the transmission.

But in an effort to save my brakes, my question is this. Will extended high rpm's for several minutes hurt the transmission and what would be an upper limit of rpm's to try and stay under while using the transmission to slow?

High rpms cause a little more wear per mile, obviously, but in general are no big deal in the big picture. This is particularly true in the newer drive by wire throttles which do a better job of matching rpms at shift points to avoid very big load dumps on the engine or trans.


IMO, it is always better to get to the low gear early when the rpms are lower, but I think the only real extra wear you might be causing would be in the transmission clutches as they would be engaging at higher rpm, but it is still likely a very small amount unless done all the time.



I think any extra wear on the parts are minuscule compared to the risk of a crash and being dead or injured and with a lot more damage to the van than a downshift could cause.



Some that have had the judder and no choice about trying to slow down with the brakes have stated that the brakes will still work to slow you down while juddering. I am sure it wouldn't be pleasant, though, and totally frightening to go through. I have not tried to use a juddering brake issue to actively slow down, so this is only second hand information.

[Stevemo]

I have warped front rotors on vehicles before but those vehicles did not act like the Chevy Express does. Normally you will feel a bit of pulsing as you arrive at a stop after cooking the rotors but as you can see in the initial video the shaking is very violent on these vans.

You can use the brakes to stop in this condition but you will throw the wheel weights off your front wheels and I don't think you can steer unless you take your foot off the pedal. It happened to me on a steep grade outside of Jasper back in 2015 because I did not realize the 4-speed in my 2004 does not lock-out overdrive when you put it in tow/haul unlike every other vehicle on the planet. You need to come over the top of the hill slow and use your gears to manage your speed. Once I realized all this I limped into Jasper and had the front pads & rotors replaced as the episode had permanently warped the rotors.

The newest incarnation of this problem came about after installing a 5" lift this summer but I had problems in relatively flat country. I could get one good hard stop out of the van but instead of having brake fade I was having this crazy shake on the next stop. I will change out the front brakes again this spring and report the outcome.

Back in 2015 learned about the 2nd weak link in these vans as well. The radiator sucks! You too will find this if you take Highway 99 North out of Whistler.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Stevemo

I have warped front rotors on vehicles before but those vehicles did not act like the Chevy Express does. Normally you will feel a bit of pulsing as you arrive at a stop after cooking the rotors but as you can see in the initial video the shaking is very violent on these vans.

You can use the brakes to stop in this condition but you will throw the wheel weights off your front wheels and I don't think you can steer unless you take your foot off the pedal. It happened to me on a steep grade outside of Jasper back in 2015 because I did not realize the 4-speed in my 2004 does not lock-out overdrive when you put it in tow/haul unlike every other vehicle on the planet. You need to come over the top of the hill slow and use your gears to manage your speed. Once I realized all this I limped into Jasper and had the front pads & rotors replaced as the episode had permanently warped the rotors.

The newest incarnation of this problem came about after installing a 5" lift this summer but I had problems in relatively flat country. I could get one good hard stop out of the van but instead of having brake fade I was having this crazy shake on the next stop. I will change out the front brakes again this spring and report the outcome.

Back in 2015 learned about the 2nd weak link in these vans as well. The radiator sucks! You too will find this if you take Highway 99 North out of Whistler.

If you are referring to overheating issues when you say radiator problems, I think you would probably find it mainly to be a transmission heat issue do to when the converter is locked or unlocked. It is almost impossible to get enough cooling to cover the trans heat by adding coolers and fans, but can be done if you take the trans cooling out of the radiator and use standalone trans cooler(s) with their own fans. The final solution for us was to reprogram the trans to modify the shift points and lockup speeds so we could climb the steep stuff mostly without having the converter unlocked. Usually just have to run a gear lower to cover the torque loss by being locked. It has worked very well for us, and as we have the trans cooling out of the radiator, the water stays cool now too.

[ChicagoTom]

No thanks, I have better things to do with my life. LOL But thanks for the detailed reply

[Stevemo]

Just circling back to vouch for this repair. It works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VOvqq6KDac