Zion dual dump system

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

It could just be that this is one of the big time surprise things that has a much bigger impact than anyone thought it would.

Nah... I'm goin' with "stir crazy".

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by avanti

Ah!, but if you had a single tank given your scenario, that tank would still be "not close" (assuming a similar total capacity). That is exactly part of my point: with dual tanks, you are stuck with a fixed ratio between grey and black capacity. With a single tank, all the capacity is fungible.

this is a point-i still think flexibility is better. so i will propose a question.

say your given a total of 35 gallons gray/black capacity. what percentage of gray/black would you pick -100 mixed tank is ok if thats what you want.

i would go 2/3 gray-1/3 black

[markopolo]

2/3, 1/3 would work for us.

Definitely a bit stir crazy here

Originally Posted by booster

I think Marko has a basis for his new business model--"Dual dump/handle inspection, testing and certification"

Pretty sure I have a clip board and I could print an official looking photo ID

[gerrym51]

the second port would let you hook to a campgrounds site and have pass thru sewage

[markopolo]

I wouldn't leave the black tank valve open but have left the grey tank valve open if we're taking consecutive longer than typical showers like you have to do if washing bug spray or sunscreen off. I'd shut the grey tank valve before the last shower so as to have some water in the grey tank to dump after emptying the black tank.

[Davydd]

Way over thinking this. Even when we have full hookups we fill the tanks as much as possible and then dump in black to grey sequence. If we are on city water we would even do a fresh water flush of a few gallons at the end after opening the grey valve.

Gerry, with your setup I predict the majority of your campsite experiences are going to be parks with water, electric and dump stations available from at least every other day to one in three at the worst case. That is what most B converters assume. As I mentioned you have the equivalent with your compressor refrigerator of the traditional B with one battery and a 3- way absorption refrigerator. You won't be worrying much about disposing your grey in toilets and you will simply dump when you need to. Besides where are you going to have room to carry a dirty bucket or desire to?

No matter how you look at it be it macerator or gravity your desire will be to do the task as little as possible. Those desires will dictate your habits and routines, IMO.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Way over thinking this. Even when we have full hookups we fill the tanks as much as possible and then dump in black to grey sequence. If we are on city water we would even do a fresh water flush of a few gallons at the end after opening the grey valve.

Gerry, with your setup I predict the majority of your campsite experiences are going to be parks with water, electric and dump stations available from at least every other day to one in three at the worst case. That is what most B converters assume. As I mentioned you have the equivalent with your compressor refrigerator of the traditional B with one battery and a 3- way absorption refrigerator. You won't be worrying much about disposing your grey in toilets and you will simply dump when you need to. Besides where are you going to have room to carry a dirty bucket or desire to?

No matter how you look at it be it macerator or gravity your desire will be to do the task as little as possible. Those desires will dictate your habits and routines, IMO.

the 47 percent need plug in's

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

You may be "pretty clean" when you finish dumping, but your pump is most likely to fail or jam when you first start to dump, not when you are done, from all I have read. At that point, you have the worst of stuff at the inlet to the pump, not cleanest. Remote situation, yep, absolutely, but you optimized everything else to the max and this would be one more thing that could be made better by adding one valve and a cover.

I am not surprised that Roadtrek won't commit to the other models, as they are always a bit hesitant on anything that might infer the existing setups aren't very good. I think the Zion acceptance and attention will probably change that. Hopefully, it will also include upgrade kits for the older units, too.

Having the bathroom on the passenger side is a minor issue in doing a dual dump system IMO, as we showed on ours. The only downside is that you need either a longer pipe to the dump system from the tanks if you put the system on the drivers side, or a long pipe from the system outlet to the drivers side if the pump stays on the passenger side. No big deal either way. The advantage you do get with having the waste tanks on the passenger side is that they can be bigger because you don't have the dump system taking up space between the the tanks like you do with the tanks on the passenger side. On a 24 footer, it is not a big deal, but when you get shorter, it can make a big difference.

Our macerator as I mentioned bayonet mounts on the 3" dump outlet. It is actually considered a portable RV waste pump self-priming macerator. It has a water inlet garden hose connection to clean it with a back flush after closing the black and grey valves. Also it can easily be removed to clean a stuck impeller or do maintenance with a pull pen bracket holder and a bayonet twist. It is Model 18555-000 at www.flojet.com if anyone cares to read about it.

[booster]

Nothing wrong with the quick release pump, nice feature that could also be used on the Zion style system if you wanted to, for pump maintenance. But it doesn't get rid of dealing with the mess if the pump fails like the Zion does. With the integral gravity dump, you can dump your tanks, and flush all the plumbing. so it is relatively clean, before the pump is removed to repair or replace. That is not possible with other systems.

[Davydd]

Basically you are saying do it now or do it later. However does the Zion have the back flush feature to clean it and can you even disassemble it easily? The ARV back flush feature can be used with every dump to clean the macerator. I doubt it would be as messy as you imagine.

[pattonsr]

David,

The Flojet 18555 has a 3/4" garden hose fitting. Do you have the 3/4" garden hose to 1" pipe thread adapter which allows a 1" macerator hose to be used?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Basically you are saying do it now or do it later. However does the Zion have the back flush feature to clean it and can you even disassemble it easily? The ARV back flush feature can be used with every dump to clean the macerator. I doubt it would be as messy as you imagine.

You could easily flush the macerator on the Zion by just putting on the slinky and running water into it either from a hose or bucket.

[booster]

Maybe some are missing the idea behind the dual dump system on the Zion, at least how I understand it. Most folks have no desire, intention, or skills, to repair a macerator pump while on the road. If the pump fails, they want to be able to continue their trip, or segment of it, and be able to dump their tanks until they can get to a repair shop or dealer. Want they don't want is to have to take apart anything is remotely related to sewage. I have the tools and experience to fix a pump on the road, or disconnect/reconnect anything that would be needed---BUT---I don't want to have to do it if there is an easier way.

I agree with Marco, if you need a bucket to catch anything in switching modes, it is not a true (or in Avanti's terms "certified" ) dual dump. In my opinion, if it is not a true dual dump, it is not as convenient or useful. The Zion, to my knowledge, is the only true dual dump on a B.

[WJones]

Booster,

From what I've picked up so far, the dual dump system on the Zion seems to cover all bases. The macerator fails as you're starting to dump the black water tank, you just connect the slinky to the third waste valve, open the valve, dump the black tank, rinse the black tank out a bit, close the black tank valve, open the grey tank valve, dump the grey tank, close the remaining two valves (grey and output valve) and then, for the remainder of the trip, pretend you've never heard of a macerator.
Once back home, you can rinse all the stuff out at a dump, station without a bucket, and then repair the macerator.
Come to think of it, it should have always been this way!
I wonder if it would really be complicated to retrofit this to existing RTs. On mine, an RT200, the valves are on the passenger side and they connect to a tube (with a slinky in it) going to the output on the driver's side. Why couldn't I add a macerator between the two. Remove the slinky and put a pipe with a T fitting. The original pipe would go to a new third gate valve and the other side to a macerator.

William
2000C200P
Sherbrooke, Quebec

[avanti]

Just for the record, the macerator install I did on our then-new Interstate back in 2005 wasfully certified. Here's a writeup I did at at time:

https://files.maya.com/maya/mayans/l...macerator.html

Basically, the setup had two electric dump valves in series, with the macerator Tee'd between them. To do a macerator dump you opened only the upstream valve. To do a gravity dump you opened both.

Maybe I am being convinced that adding an extra valve to my new setup is worth it. It is easy enough. But I still have to say that is is pretty marginal. Maybe I would feel differently if I had ever actually had to do a gravity dump. But, as I have said, in a full decade of RVing, I have never had a macerator failure and so have never once experienced the pleasures of a gravity dump.

I guess when I get into the project I will see how the layout plays out. If there is a good place to put it, I suppose I will spring for another valve.

[booster]

William, you have it exactly correct, as I see it. I think that is how folks will look at the Zion setup, and use it in the real world.

I totally agree, and could not understand why they hadn't made them this way before.

We did retrofit our 07 C190P Roadtrek to a true dual dump setup last winter. We went the other way from what you would need to do, because we had a macerator but no gravity. Here is the thread on the conversion we did

http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=12&t=3443

Because it had never been done before, at least as far as I knew, I thought there was going to be some huge problem in doing it, but there wasn't. It was very straightforward with very little in the way of surprises. Why it has taken this long for an RV manufacturer to make such setup continues to amaze me.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Just for the record, the macerator install I did on our then-new Interstate back in 2005 wasfully certified. Here's a writeup I did at at time:

https://files.maya.com/maya/mayans/l...macerator.html

Basically, the setup had two electric dump valves in series, with the macerator Tee'd between them. To do a macerator dump you opened only the upstream valve. To do a gravity dump you opened both.

Maybe I am being convinced that adding an extra valve to my new setup is worth it. It is easy enough. But I still have to say that is is pretty marginal. Maybe I would feel differently if I had ever actually had to do a gravity dump. But, as I have said, in a full decade of RVing, I have never had a macerator failure and so have never once experienced the pleasures of a gravity dump.

I guess when I get into the project I will see how the layout plays out. If there is a good place to put it, I suppose I will spring for another valve.

Didn't know that you had done that, good info.

Did the Interstate have a single tank or dual? Did you do any maintenance like impeller changing, preventive on the macerator? Guess how many nights of camping with it?

I find it so very interesting how different the durability is for folks with the macerators, but hard to pinpoint why.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Did the Interstate have a single tank or dual?

Single gray/black tank. My experience with that setup helped convince me that dual tanks are dumb. I miss it.

Did you do any maintenance like impeller changing, preventive on the macerator?

Nope. By the time that we sold it, the pump had developed a minor leak (only while it was running). I suspect it was due to minor freeze damage. I wasn't always careful about pumping antifreeze into it. I am now.

Guess how many nights of camping with it?

Geez, no real idea. Must have been in the low hundreds over the years.

I find it so very interesting how different the durability is for folks with the macerators, but hard to pinpoint why.

Yeah, who knows? One thought: We virtually never used chemicals of any kind. I wonder if some of that stuff attacks the impeller or something like that. (Pure speculation).

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

William, you have it exactly correct, as I see it. I think that is how folks will look at the Zion setup, and use it in the real world.

I totally agree, and could not understand why they hadn't made them this way before.

We did retrofit our 07 C190P Roadtrek to a true dual dump setup last winter. We went the other way from what you would need to do, because we had a macerator but no gravity. Here is the thread on the conversion we did

http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=12&t=3443

Because it had never been done before, at least as far as I knew, I thought there was going to be some huge problem in doing it, but there wasn't. It was very straightforward with very little in the way of surprises. Why it has taken this long for an RV manufacturer to make such setup continues to amaze me.

About the dual dump ................ I don't think anyone was thinking about dual dump systems when switching to macerator pump outs. The focus was on swapping out the gravity dump for a macerator.

Now we know macerator pumps and hoses can occasionally fail so dual dump setups are the way to go.

I'll probably go ahead and do a dual dump conversion on my van. There is space on the 3" pipe after the main valves to tee in but I'd have to mount the pump vertically. I'd screw the pump right into the Tee & extend the input pickup about 1" into the the 3" pipe. Add the third valve and it becomes a proper dual dump setup.

[booster]

Wow, that looks like it is really going to be pretty easy. The more I see of this stuff, the more I like it. I think soon all systems will be dual.