Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

[markopolo]

If it is still the Northstar battery you previously linked: http://buy.northstarbattery.com/p/sms-a ... tery?pp=24

Then think of it as 2 batteries if comparing to other vans that list 2 batteries.
Weight @ 131.2 lbs and Capacity 20 Hour Rate @ 185.8 Ah - basically equals two batteries.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If it is still the Northstar battery you previously linked: http://buy.northstarbattery.com/p/sms-a ... tery?pp=24

Then think of it as 2 batteries if comparing to other vans that list 2 batteries.
Weight @ 131.2 lbs and Capacity 20 Hour Rate @ 185.8 Ah - basically equals two batteries.

i was going to get roadtreks 4 6 volt batteries


I've studied this battery-and the tppl technology. it is superior however as you point out it's still 185 12 volt amps.

it does not meet what i wanted in battery capacity in a 'stand still'environment. it does however have however a far higher 'charging acceptance rate' than standard agm.

however i am going to give in to the wife. better the zion then no B in my opinion. and the zion does have many good features. it's tank capacities are excellent.

the only downside i see is air conditioner runtime off of battery. i was looking for 2 hours in my 'old configuration-i might get an hour with the zion.


the 2 cats are the issue. i never expected to get a lot of battery air conditioning. fortunetly cats are far more heat accepting than dogs.

[Davydd]

Gerry,

With only 185 amps at your disposal I am not sure you'll get any air conditioning with their current air conditioning offerings. Of course that also depends on the size inverter you get to run anything 120v. Hammill seems to tolerate and like you. Maybe you should get them to let you be a test van to prove some Etrek concepts in a Zion.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Gerry,

With only 185 amps at your disposal I am not sure you'll get any air conditioning with their current air conditioning offerings. Of course that also depends on the size inverter you get to run anything 120v. Hammill seems to tolerate and like you. Maybe you should get them to let you be a test van to prove some Etrek concepts in a Zion.

davydd-i've explained the battery pluses and limitations to the wife. it's going to be the zion-what can i say.

the inverter is 2000 wattsand it will work the AC especially when the engine is running/ thekey was how long when engine not running-but the wife has spoken and i obey-

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i was going to get roadtreks 4 6 volt batteries


I've studied this battery-and the tppl technology. it is superior however as you point out it's still 185 12 volt amps.

it does not meet what i wanted in battery capacity in a 'stand still'environment. it does however have however a far higher 'charging acceptance rate' than standard agm.

however i am going to give in to the wife. better the zion then no B in my opinion. and the zion does have many good features. it's tank capacities are excellent.

the only downside i see is air conditioner runtime off of battery. i was looking for 2 hours in my 'old configuration-i might get an hour with the zion.


the 2 cats are the issue. i never expected to get a lot of battery air conditioning. fortunetly cats are far more heat accepting than dogs.

Is it time to think outside the box, so to speak. How long would a 20# bag of ice keep an insulated cat crate cool?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Is it time to think outside the box, so to speak. How long would a 20# bag of ice keep an insulated cat crate cool?

we've decided to use folding cat carriers-we've found many on amazon. we'll use them when we plan to be gone more than an hour


i have looked at these


http://swampy.net/

[Davydd]

Marko,

I was pointing out the impracticality of that teak floor in the bathroom. I was assuming it stayed in when showering. As for protection, a throw carpet does the job and is nicer under foot. If you were assuming using it with a camp shower then you get back what I said in having a wet board under foot if you put it back. I don't disagree that it is a great touch but as I said, I have the teak and was thinking of making my own until I thought through the logistics of having it.

My comments about Roadtrek and Etrek interest was not in regard to overall market share but the clear interest of Roadtrek customers being overwhelmingly interested. Hammill himself said as much and Roadtrek is promoting the hell out of the boondocking concepts. More battery with more cow bell is going to spill over to everyone else once it gets more common place and known as doable.

I went back and looked at the Hymer video. The design is unique. What it reminded me a lot of was the short lived 2005 Airstream Westfalia which was a rebadged European James Cook import. It had a lot of clever features the North American market ignored. Will Hymer be serious or is it just an opportune wedge with the Promaster chassis? Evidently they would not have imported complete Ducatos and the idea of there small Class A's may not make it as there are no North American manufactured chassis capable of being built smaller than 25.5 foot that I am aware of. The earlier "only a fool" comment was directed at me for judging off one RV show. Big RV shows are like auto shows. Concepts are thrown out there to gauge interest. Hymer has given no real indication they are "all in." I say the jury is out until after the converters have a go with the Ford Transit which will be by all indication more amenable to conversion for the known and proven market.

With Hymer's current presentation I don't think they are going to appeal to the current and known market which is overwhelmingly retired and near retired mostly couples. It is too small with the amenities. Do we know yet the tank capacities? No microwave. The 3.8 cf refrigerator is being rejected by more and more class B buyers as too small. I asked the extra dinette double seats. You have to seriously question them in such a small B for one or two people 95%+ time. The back end looks like a store room in order to pack a lot in. Beds have to be made up and then they look to be countertop height. That might be fine for young people as is that pop top if they are offering it. But countertop height is too tall for retirees and near retirees. I did a lot of analysis of this with bed systems. 29" to the top of the mattress is the practical maximum for any bed and then they pretty much have to be entered butt first and almost impossible to forward crawl into.

Bicycles are not my interest anymore but still see to be very popular even with the older group. Great West Van, Airstream and Advanced RV have designs where bicycles can be stored inside the B and still not interfere with other uses, mainly sleeping. Those vans are the extended body 24 feet Sprinters, or 3 feet longer than the Promaster. So, the options on the Promaster (and the other Sprinter manufacturers) is to hitch mount on the back often extending the overall length past 24 feet. The other option is to store in the aisle as being promoted by Hymer, Zion and Winnebago 59K. My question when you do that where do you put the bikes at night? If outside I would think it would put a crimp in boondocking ideas when it is desirable not to put things outside your B unless of course on a secured hitch rack.

$85,000? Are we sure about that? Jim Hammill on the original Zion video said about $82,000. Now we know that if you want anything you are going to be up around $100,000 MSRP and you still won't have as much as the Sprinters. Hymer lists starting at 74,000 Euros in Great Britain which is about $86,000 but just about everything unlike North America is an add on top of that. I'm guess $85,000 will not include a generator or air conditioning for starters. My point here is $85,000 or twice that is still way too much for a young person or young family to consider especially when they have much more limited opportunity use vs. bigger and cheaper Class C RVs if they seriously consider a motorhome. My original contention is they are marketing to that because it is the only market they could hope to satisfy and appeal to. And that market is supposition and not proven. Short Euro vans are not new. Pleasure-way and Roadtrek have them but they are not main sellers. Also that Airstream Westfalia was a short Sprinter. Pleasure-way's Promaster is the only one that looks as if it is trying to sell to the established market.

Established market? Well you could survey members here to see who they are. You could look at Roadtreking: The Group or the Pleasure-way Group on Facebook and I think you will see nothing much but clones of us. The Advanced RV crowd as small as it is so far, is a pretty much one type.

The target younger market? If they exist they most likely are the after market used crowd or the minimum load in DIYers to go hunting, fishing or camping and not new buyers. Heck, I bought my first large Chevy van used in 1970 and put down a plywood floor, mattress and built in fastened down 12V cooler. I didn't know there was such a thing as a Class B back then. I did know about my parents' Winnebago motorhome and thought I was just making an economical version.

[gerrym51]

the msrp of the zion i built off of build sheet is about 97,000(this includes shipping). i expect to get at least 15 percent off.if i don't i will try another dealer first.

[booster]

IMO, you are not going to see the younger crowd here, or at the RV shows, and particularly not on the Roadtrek Facebook page. You will find them talking and communicating with each other in other ways, and probably lamenting the "geezermobiles" that the class b's are.

They may not even have a car, live in the city, and use mass transit, but want to be able to go out and mountain bike, dirt bike, rock climb, whitewater, etc. The old class b's did that well, new ones not so much. Add to that the fact that the new generation are much less likely to DIY a van, and I think there will be a market. With no car, they will have the funds to do it.

Small footprint, small frig, maybe AC, solar, so you can go off and have a good time is where it will be for them. Comfort is secondary, as it was for us at that age. We need to quit putting our desires and requirements on the younger set, as they are not us.

My question would be, "do you see a 20 something in a 24' dually Sprinter with all the comfort features, or a Promaster with a kayak rack on the roof, bike rack on the back, and towing a trailer with the dirt bikes." Or maybe 5 of the Promasters in the wilderness having a good time, with good friends.

[gerrym51]

gerry-buyinga 'geezemoblile'. i like that-lol

[Davydd]

I dunno. I have three kids in their 40s and a lot of nieces and nephews. They have money. They all camp. Not one that I know of has expressed interest in a Class B. Pickup trucks, SUVs and minivans? Yes. I do have one nephew with a 5th wheeler. He is a farmer with a diesel pickup. If a millennial doesn't want a car I doubt they would want to be burdened with a Class B especially if they live in an inner city or multi-family housing they say is trending. They will all get old and eventually buy the geezermobile.

[Tenbike2]

Gerry I am not an expert on class b RV's but I know that both advanced RV and roadtrek are using the engine at high idle to recharge their batteries . This happens whenever needed automatically. Now these are Diesel engines. I believe that you are looking at gas powered rv's. When you leave the cat(s?) for lunch why couldn't you leave the vehicle idling with the dash air conditioning running to keep the vehicle cool while gone? I don't know if there are some other issues that I am not aware but I do know that the gas engines do run much cleaner than in past generations.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Tenbike2

Gerry I am not an expert on class b RV's but I know that both advanced RV and roadtrek are using the engine at high idle to recharge their batteries . This happens whenever needed automatically. Now these are Diesel engines. I believe that you are looking at gas powered rv's. When you leave the cat(s?) for lunch why couldn't you leave the vehicle idling with the dash air conditioning running to keep the vehicle cool while gone? I don't know if there are some other issues that I am not aware but I do know that the gas engines do run much cleaner than in past generations.

actually thats not true-the roadtrek system is a high output 280 amp 1 wire alternator. regular idle is used -look up the term one wire alternator and 2500 rpm to get it kickstarted

i do not want to leave cats with idling van-we will play i by ear.i'm sureit will be an issue occasionally during the day. at night if we feel wewillneed AC we will hook up.

one thing i haven't mentioned is my wife loves campgrounds we will be mostly tourers but plan on payed campgrounds at least 3 days weekly and 1 hotel stay weekly sowedon'tkill each other

[eurovanman]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I dunno. I have three kids in their 40s and a lot of nieces and nephews. They have money. They all camp. Not one that I know of has expressed interest in a Class B. Pickup trucks, SUVs and minivans? Yes. I do have one nephew with a 5th wheeler. He is a farmer with a diesel pickup. If a millennial doesn't want a car I doubt they would want to be burdened with a Class B especially if they live in an inner city or multi-family housing they say is trending. They will all get old and eventually buy the geezermobile.

The class B is actually a great thing for the city. I use a VW eurovan as a daily driver in San Francisco and I know I could swing a short sprinter conversion like the SS Agile by Roadtrek.

The problem with the younger market interest is they have nothing to be interested in at the moment. Young people aren't going to be interested in class b's when they are designed to look like your grand parents house.

With new modern designs in the market, and new technology, it will open up the possibilities to the younger crowd.

Have you ever heard of the tiny house movement. Its huge right now. I have a few friends who have downsized to tiny homes. This speaks for the market. These are popular because they are attractive and customizable and affordable, while also being somewhat self sustaining. http://thetinylife.com/what-is-the-tiny-house-movement/

I myself am going full time in 2017. I am currently 32 years old. I want a 4x4 sprinter conversion with lots of solar, battery, and non permanent bed. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get all of this in 2017, but I see a lot of positive change going on in the N. America RV market.

[gerrym51]

the simple reason most younger people are notinterested in B's is that they don't have a lot of free time and they have kids. b's are best for 2 people touring.

some body with 2 kids a 2weeks of vacation is more interested in towing a trailer to a campsite.

the older you get the more attractive a b becomes.

that does not mean there aren't some younger people with b's. but roadtrek will tell you their prime market is 60 and over.

[Davydd]

Eurovanman,

I am acutely aware of the tiny house movement. It is not new. It is just getting more attention. As an architect I once entertained going in partnership back in the early 80s to design and build them. Trust me, it is more passing romance and editorial intrigue than reality. As much as I am intrigued with them as a designer part of me questions living in one on the proverbial 5 acre wilderness plot. That would be bane and rape of our wilderness areas and an oxymoron of the idea of sustainability and economical housing for the many. Even in the inner city as a backyard mother-in-law apartment or return of a child, that represents increased density and additions of a certain percentage of autos to an already crowded infrastructure that was never designed for modern day desired use.

There will always be interest in Class Bs by someone of all ages but that does not mean they will ever become daily driver's in San Francisco except for the rare and odd example. You can get what you want today. It is just that the established converters when trying to build as economically as possible on assembly for dealers can't find or justify a market for doing so. Sportsmobile, especially Sportsmobile in Fresno, CA has been building what you want for years.

When I was about 32 I dreamed of having an Airstream trailer and preferably a Bambi. At that age I could not afford one raising a family. I did finally buy a vintage Airstream long after becoming empty nesters. Then I quickly learned I had no desire to pull a trailer. We realized as longtime nomadic tent campers mostly in the wilderness parks we desired not to be pinned down in one spot for any length of time. That's how the B came about. My interest is touring and still have little to no interest in larger motorhomes in which to live. But we do take long trips and have learned we don't care for conversion type space if we can avoid them nor have to move things around. That was one of my goals in designing our new B. That and comfort like I have at home when on such long tours. Class Bs are tolerable and more enjoyable as long as your moving, IMO. You go stationary then you are punishing yourself.

[wincrasher]

I'm certainly not seeing what you guys are saying about demographics for B vans. I strongly believe it is changing.

By far, the people that come up to me asking questions are in the 40's and 50's age group. I have yet to put gas in the thing without somebody wanting to look inside. These people appear to be without kids, or the kids are off to college now. Anyone with kids is going for travel trailers. It just makes sense really. C class too, but mostly trailers as you see in the sales figures. Maybe since it doesn't have a big Mercedes logo on the front, it's more approachable, or they think, more affordable and realistic to consider buying.

But I think those in their 60's have a different mindset these days. They don't consider themselves "old" yet and likely have their bicycles and kayaks. In their heads they may think of themselves as sports-active people, and they are probably right. These are the tail end of the boomers and there are ALOT of them!

By far, what I see in the parks, and at the RV shows is the older the person, the bigger the RV that appeals to them. I've truly witnessed salesmen picking an 80's year old man out of his wheelchair and carrying him into a coach so he could look at it. I continue to think a B van is a tough sell for folks in their 70's and 80's. They'd probably like the easy to drive and fuel economy aspects, but the comfort factor is just not there relative to the big class A.

[Davydd]

Everyone of every age is curious about Class Bs. That has gone with the territory. We have all been approached by strangers wherever we go. Right now you are benefitting with the Promaster being new as much as being a B. The curiosity about the Sprinter was huge a decade ago. FedEx has ho hummed that by now. How many people in their 40s have you actually met on the road? I have met a few because I have attended up to three or more socials and rallies with other B owners. Class B is but about 2% of the total RV market. Of the Class B market I would be surprised if there were 10% not of the baby boomer generation of 50 and above. Even during our nomadic venture up the Alaska Highway that was like a Grapes of Wrath trip of meeting up with the same people along the way in Bs was a 50 and above with the exception of the one young couple we met from Germany in a CS Riesemobile DUO 4x4 Sprinter.

[booster]

We also have lots of folks wanting to see the inside of our C190P, and one of the largest groups is the pop up camper with a couple kids crowd. They know mobility and living without a traveling house because they do it. They all seem to say "as soon as the kids are gone, we are getting a class b". Most are 30's-early 40's. The older folks that come by usually are thinking about downsizing from a big RV.

[stanw909]

I like the idea mentioned earlier about a hybrid drivetrain. If a gasoline van could get 30 mpg then it would appeal to younger people but it would have to sleep at least 2 adults and 2 kids. The Winnebago Travato 59G will be very attractive to young couples but not until the diesels come online. 25 mpg will get them because the van will also be a viable second vehicle. Class C's give more livable bang for the buck but not as a daily driver. With the Promaster diesel we may see a new era for class B ownership. Young people can't comprehend 15 mpg but mid 20s will be most attractive. I understand that currently gas is much cheaper than diesel but that is an aberration due to the Saudi's trying to break the backs of their competitors. When things go back to normal , Promaster diesels will be popular.