Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i read somewhere- i can't remember-that combined black/gray tanks are no longer allowed. i can't remember why though.

Hmm. I just looked through the 2015 edition of NFPA 1192, which is the standard that RVIA references for plumbing and life safety. The closest thing I could find is the following:

7.5.4 Connections Between Holding Tanks. No drain connection shall be made between liquid waste and body waste holding tanks upstream of any fullway termination valves

Could that be what you remember? Not sure that implies that separate tanks are required.

[SiennaGuy]

I see a better selection of undercoach AC and heat pump units coming on the market soon. This would allow more inside headroom (my pet peeve about rooftop AC), and it would allow more solar panels to be mounted on the roof.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Norcold is fighting back. "No extra batteries, no inverter, and no generator." I'm eliminating the generator too. In doing so with diesel powered heat and hot water it made more sense to eliminate the absorption refrigerator along with all propane. So, no vents on the outside. Level is not an issue. I have to be level anyway for comfort.

I have the extra battery power. The AC-DC compressor refrigerator uses less than a third the energy on DC which is an advantage for short stops like lunch that almost required you to switch to propane with the absorption refrigerator if you are on one or two batteries. Mid day I am hoping the solar will replenish the batteries for the compressor refrigerator stops, but with our batteries and alternator charging power it probably is going to be irrelevant if we drive before and after lunch. It will, in theory, if we are just stopped and camping. I'm anxious to find out. Our refrigerator will probably use up about 80 amps per day and our 480 watt solar should on average contribute almost twice that.

norcold makes ac/dc refrigerators sportsmobile uses them. same company different division maybe

[avanti]

Originally Posted by SiennaGuy

I see a better selection of undercoach AC and heat pump units coming on the market soon. This would allow more inside headroom (my pet peeve about rooftop AC), and it would allow more solar panels to be mounted on the roof.

Yes, and (to me) more importantly, they will likely be quieter (they could hardly be louder!). In fact, I am seriously considering a split-system retrofit on our van.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by SiennaGuy

I see a better selection of undercoach AC and heat pump units coming on the market soon. This would allow more inside headroom (my pet peeve about rooftop AC), and it would allow more solar panels to be mounted on the roof.

Roadtrek has a couple of CS Adventurouses out on the road for testing possibly with that concept. Their air conditioner is not on the roof and the roof is full of solar panels.

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by booster

It will be interesting to see how the all electric (including van drivetrain turns out over time). We drove 820 miles the last day of our fall trip to get home, at quite high speeds (67mph average). It took a bit of gas, and there is no way any current technology could have done it with electric. If they can make big fuel cells capable of supporting 250hp, then you would be good to go

We're actually lucky that Class B vans are based on vehicles that are used to make deliveries and to carry cargo. That means that large fleets of them are in stop-and-go traffic all day long while others are hauling things around cities. Stop-and-go traffic is where hybrid vehicles really shine. The fleet buyers, I'm sure, will pressure Mercedes, Fiat/Ram, and Ford to come up with more advanced drive trains with plenty of horsepower. We get to sit back and enjoy the benefit of their work.

[mlts22]

Another advantage of fleet vehicles is that the businesses demand a low cost of upkeep, and the ability to stand heavy duty work, far beyond what an average sedan sees. This also get passed on. We may not see the cute features that non-fleet vehicles have, but overall, we get longer lasting rigs.

[wincrasher]

I'm not sure a lot of radical innovation is really needed at this point. There are enough components out there to make a really compelling package in a B. I'd like to see more competition/players in the B space and all that brings to the table.

What I'm thinking is we'll see is more competition and the influx of the European manufacturers. Working in the favor of that - the falling Euro and Europe falling into recession and deflation. Working against - a sustained low fuel prices and people wanting ginormous RV's instead.

[Davydd]

I'm not sure I understand what Europe offers. What Hymer recently showed here was same old same old and nothing much different than what Winnebago and Roadtrek have already introduced in the Promaster. The only thing new is Promaster and they will go through many variations just like the early Sprinters did before the market dictates what it wants. Of course anything "different" is going to have its advocates. They have cute appliances. But pulleeeze, North America rejected cassette toilets. And if you remember, just a decade ago air conditioning was always an option and is now standard.

Does Europe have anything like Roadtrek's Etrek or Advanced RV's EcOasis?

[wincrasher]

That's a surprising statement.

They bring ALOT to the table, and only a fool would make broad judgements about one offering made at a single RV show.
Hymer, by the way, is a premier builder with a stellar reputation. I've posted quite a few of their new model reviews.

The Europeans offer a design aesthetic, a lot of build experience, as well as some innovative layouts. Look no further than their lavatory layouts - swing-out toilets, sinks, etc. Saying all eurovans would have cassettes is just nonsense - there is nothing precluding that as the space requirements between a cassette toilet and the 10-11 gallon black tank setup are not that different. Nor is it precluded that the features, such as swing away, could not be fitted to a traditional black tank toilet.

They also have the best drop-down bed arrangements we've ever seen. Far and away above what Winnebago and others are offering right now. Look at the van I posted last week.

Innovation is not necessarily high tech gadgets. It may be manufacturing processses that bring a high quality conversion at a much lower price. It may just be lower prices due to competition. It may simply be using alternative build materials to get the weight down. VERY few people are going to pay the price to get an E-Trek package or similar. Advanced boondocking is just not a large part of the market. The growing demographic is the lower priced and sports active market. Weekenders, tailgaters and annual vacation types are going to start driving the market. Just look at what is being offered - that's what all the majors are trying to get a slice of. Some tech will surely trickle down to these kind of units, but it will be slow going, as it will have to be offered at a low price.

[markopolo]

Maybe the focus in Europe is efficient power use - Espar, Webasto etc. Air conditioning maybe not desired or needed. Large battery bank ...... why?

There's something about European design that captures our attention. (Mercedes, BMW etc.)

I like the details in the Euro units. Hymercar offers darkening and mosquito net roller blinds, cutlery tray, self-closing drawer mechanisms, removeable wooden grate to protect bathroom floor as examples.

more Hymercar Grand Canyon examples:

[booster]

I like the way the European RVs do such a good job of using space, and making it useful. The older Bs in the US were much more that way, but now the big things are wide open areas with windows all the way along the way, at the expense of usefulness.

Hymer is probably one of the few builders that can match the resources and experience of Winnebago, but with an all new perspective.

I think that the way they look at things will be very good for the market. I hope they are successful so they bring in the small C's and A's, too, as those look much nicer than the offerings here.

[avanti]

The Europeans are much more willing to engineer and fabricate custom components than any of the U.S. manufacturers. Virtually all American B vans are pieced together from catalog components combined with conventional carpentry/cabinet making. Even the best of them come across as "kits" (and ARV is no exception here, although they do it very well). The best of the European vans read like actual "products". This allows much more cleverness and efficiency. If we ever see the kind of "transformer" interiors that I mentioned earlier in this thread, they will come from Europe first.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

That's a surprising statement.

They bring ALOT to the table, and only a fool would make broad judgements about one offering made at a single RV show.
Hymer, by the way, is a premier builder with a stellar reputation. I've posted quite a few of their new model reviews.

The Europeans offer a design aesthetic, a lot of build experience, as well as some innovative layouts. Look no further than their lavatory layouts - swing-out toilets, sinks, etc. Saying all eurovans would have cassettes is just nonsense - there is nothing precluding that as the space requirements between a cassette toilet and the 10-11 gallon black tank setup are not that different. Nor is it precluded that the features, such as swing away, could not be fitted to a traditional black tank toilet.

They also have the best drop-down bed arrangements we've ever seen. Far and away above what Winnebago and others are offering right now. Look at the van I posted last week.

Innovation is not necessarily high tech gadgets. It may be manufacturing processses that bring a high quality conversion at a much lower price. It may just be lower prices due to competition. It may simply be using alternative build materials to get the weight down. VERY few people are going to pay the price to get an E-Trek package or similar. Advanced boondocking is just not a large part of the market. The growing demographic is the lower priced and sports active market. Weekenders, tailgaters and annual vacation types are going to start driving the market. Just look at what is being offered - that's what all the majors are trying to get a slice of. Some tech will surely trickle down to these kind of units, but it will be slow going, as it will have to be offered at a low price.

I'm a fool now, eh? I looked at the Hymer brochure. Actually coming to America they are being forced to up their game. But as for aesthetics it looks hospital cabinetry quality and look as do most European manufacturers. My interior will be 100% my fault as I had control to pick anything I wanted for upholstery, cabinets, wall fabric, ceiling, curtains, trim and flooring. I chose genuine leather with a custom contrast color stitching.

I've dealt with the swing away bathroom concepts already. We don't know if there is a growing demographic in the lower priced and sports active market yet. There wasn't before and it may just be desperation to find more markets or that is all the Promaster will be capable of. But we do know already there is a market for the Etrek as demand has pretty much exploded with Roadtrek, the largest North American seller and nothing but with a 1-1/2 year backlog with Advanced RV.

Self/soft closing cabinet hardware? Check. That is what Advanced RV does. Nothing new there.

Wooden grate in bathroom floor? Better yet I had custom removable soft carpeting under my feet in the GWVan. I admit I have a lot of teak and have thought about making a custom one for my ARV but I suspect once wet in a shower do you want to step on it again barefoot? Jury is out for me on that idea. Maybe another curb appeal touch only in reality.

Beds? Check. Just wait. You haven't seen nothing yet. Trust me, never in a Class B before.

Windows are a bad thing now? The feeling of spaciousness is bad? Explain what usefulness is sacrificed exactly. A cave like feeling is the only thing I am aware of that is lost. I am too soon for developments ARV said they were looking at in windows. I won't get everything I desired along with 4x4 drive for being just a tad soon.

Air conditioning is a given in America whether we use it or not and you know I have preached how I rarely use it and try to best plan not to. But we have a big country and half the country can't avoid it.

Espar, Webasto? Energy efficient? C'mon, you have heard of Roadtrek, Great West Van and Advanced RV already. Extra battery bank? Seriously? We are a big country Canada and United State combined. Do Europeans have a western Rocky Mountains and drive routinely on 5,000 mile trips going through a wide range of climates?

The one thing that puzzles me, and I think Roadtrek is finally figuring it out with their Zion, is what is the infatuation with the double passenger seat other than making for a deceiving wide angle lens shot invite in a sales brochure and a place to sit while a wily salesman gives you a pitch on why two TV's is good in a 100 sf B? Everyone almost to a T on this board is one or two people traveling in a Class B. Do people not mind sacrificing already precious space in a B for the minute chance they'll have the opportunity to pick up a hitch hiking axe murderer?

I think it is a grass is greener syndrome and not seeing what is right under your nose. I give European's one edge. They have a lot more experience with much smaller Class Bs. We cannot even get the shortest wheelbase Sprinter here and CS Reisemobile does a lot of interesting things with them. But Americans have bigger roads and travel longer distances and much different perceptions about size (witness houses). The market has spoken and they want bigger, witness the faster growing small Class C market (think Unity usurping Free Spirit). The Promaster is a B looking for a market. As I said, the jury is still out on that.

[markopolo]

You see that same custom fabrication in Quebec at New West for example. On the Chevy's there a "rail" around the perimeter where the original roof meets the walls. New West has a custom molded fiberglass covering for that. All or most of the other builders use wood and fabric of some kind. The New West custom fitted piece looks great to me.

[booster]

Windows are a bad thing now? The feeling of spaciousness is bad? Explain what usefulness is sacrificed exactly.

If you remove 50 cubic feet of cabinets to get the windows open, you lose 50 cubic feet of storage, no mystery there. Of course you could just go to a van that is 4' longer to make up for that I guess We would much rather have the smaller footprint with efficiency, than all the extra bulk. Amazing that just outside the door of the "cave" is the outdoors, which is full of openness. Imagine that-camping and being outside, I bet they even do that in Europe.

[markopolo]

Missed Davydd's post while I was typing earlier.

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm a fool now, eh?

Nobody's saying that. I'd love to have an Advanced RV. Advanced RV seems to try to do every little thing better. That sets them apart. I don't know why you compare them to the Travato or Hymer Grand Canyon. You can't really compare Advanced RV to volume production units. You might have to wait a year or more to get an Advanced RV Class B.

Originally Posted by Davydd

We don't know if there is a growing demographic in the lower priced and sports active market yet. There wasn't before and it may just be desperation to find more markets or that is all the Promaster will be capable of.

That's a good point. I think it is there - there seems to be a buzz about B's right now. Check YouTube & read through comments etc., there's a younger demographic that loves the idea of campervans. Will they sign the dotted line for a new unit? I think they will if it demonstrates multifunctional use and value.

Originally Posted by Davydd

But we do know already there is a market for the Etrek as demand has pretty much exploded with Roadtrek, the largest North American seller

Has it? RV Business reports stats from SSI. Roadtrek's market share has been reported as follows: (latest stats are Nov)
Nov 2012: 36.4%
Nov 2013: 38.8%
Nov 2014: 35.4%

Approx 65% didn't purchase a Roadtrek last Nov according to published stats. In 2008, Roadtrek had 62.6% of the market according to what was published. I'm not knocking Roadtrek - I think they are doing a great job. The competition is fierce. Maybe you'll explain what you meant when you said "Exploded".

Originally Posted by Davydd

Self/soft closing cabinet hardware? Check. That is what Advanced RV does. Nothing new there.

At around $85,000 ?..I didn't know .......

Originally Posted by Davydd

Wooden grate in bathroom floor? Better yet I had custom removable soft carpeting under my feet in the GWVan. I admit I have a lot of teak and have thought about making a custom one for my ARV but I suspect once wet in a shower do you want to step on it again barefoot?

I thought it was more to protect the shower floor from your shoes and figured I'd remove it to shower. Carry it to a campground shower maybe

Originally Posted by Davydd

Beds? Check. Just wait. You haven't seen nothing yet. Trust me, never in a Class B before.

They better be good -

Originally Posted by Davydd

Windows are a bad thing now? The feeling of spaciousness is bad? Explain what usefulness is sacrificed exactly. A cave like feeling is the only thing I am aware of that is lost.

Cave like? My van resembles that remark (note to self: do not buy a cave like van again )

Originally Posted by Davydd

Extra battery bank? Seriously?

"Right sizing" - we're waiting on you to report back on battery usage. Did you choose right? Did you overspend? I trust you'll report back with advice for others. I want 2 batteries minimum now with propane fridge.

Originally Posted by Davydd

The one thing that puzzles me, and I think Roadtrek is finally figuring it out with their Zion, is what is the infatuation with the double passenger seat other than making for a deceiving wide angle lens shot invite in a sales brochure and a place to sit while a wily salesman gives you a pitch on why two TV's is good in a 100 sf B?

I like the idea of the extra seats that take up as little space as possible. I have this vision of using the B more When we visit relatives we leave the B parked and go out in other people's cars. I'd like to go in the B I love the permanent dinette idea for meals or computing.

My top 3 right now would be: (I'm not looking to buy now)
1. A custom Advanced RV (ain't gonna happen)
more realistically:
Tied for 2. & 3. Travato 59K - no extra seats & Safari Condo Promaster Flex - extra seats

Originally Posted by Davydd

I think it is a grass is greener syndrome and not seeing what is right under your nose.

When? Suddenly we have two Travato's to pick from at a substantial discount to what was previously available. And we might have a Hymercar Competition is good for buyers

Everyone is going to put a "price" on the activity of touring around in a Class B. It might be $10,000, it might be $35,000, some might go to $90,000. Some might go to $130,000. It's worth what it is worth to you

[gerrym51]

My dealer has a zion coming to the hartford rv show this friday coming up.


we will probably order a zion. to me it has good points and bad points versus my earlier roadtrek choice.


However the most important point is this.

this is the one the wife wants.

she has never been enthusuastic about my b desire. this is the first time she is enthusiastic-so zion it is

[markopolo]

If you see it at the show Gerry give us a report on it.
Maybe clarify some things like battery capacity, TV viewing angles, is it easy to be in the bathroom with the doors closed etc. That would be good info to share for others who have the Zion on their short list.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If you see it at the show Gerry give us a report on it.
Maybe clarify some things like battery capacity, TV viewing angles, is it easy to be in the bathroom with the doors closed etc. That would be good info to share for others who have the Zion on their short list.

i asked friday of roadtrek stiil 1 12volt battery they say 400 amps