Winter use upgrades

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Kind of moot in my mind but is anyone really going to convert to a hydronic system in a 20 year old van?

LOL. There is zero chance that this guy is going to rebuild his 2001 van to install a Espar D5 hydronic system. I think the current Sportsmobile price for this is almost $8000 on a new build. They would charge more on a rebuild.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jrobe

LOL. There is zero chance that this guy is going to rebuild his 2001 van to install a Espar D5 hydronic system. I think the current Sportsmobile price for this is almost $8000 on a new build. They would charge more on a rebuild.

A complete Eberspacher Hydronic D4 heater - $625-700
Expansion tank 5l - $110
Hoses / clamps - $150

Total parts $885 - $960

Design and plumbing labor from NASA or equivalent from Sportsmobile $100K, so yes, it is expensive.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by jrobe

LOL. There is zero chance that this guy is going to rebuild his 2001 van to install a Espar D5 hydronic system. I think the current Sportsmobile price for this is almost $8000 on a new build. They would charge more on a rebuild.

As I said, it is a perfectly feasible project.

I don't think Sportsmobile's catalog price is a very good way to estimate the cost.

Call Jim Rixen. He is on the expensive end, but he sells a well-thought-out complete system, and I am pretty darn sure it isn't going to be $8K.

Many Thermo King dealers install and service Espar stuff as well.

[Belzar]

Your nighttime bladder should be fine - use the toilet and rinse bowl with antifreeze, using about same amount of antifreeze as the "waste" you are flushing. For winter camping, best return on effort is insulation: good window and vent covers, insulated drapes across rear and sliding doors, rugs on cold floors, stuff insulation in gaps etc.

[GeorgeRa]

One of our best temperature control additions besides excellent Thinsulate insulation, good window curtains is external windshield cover. Good for cold and hot days. Sides can be rolled up for additional ventilation. https://www.eurocampers.com/2007--20...ge_p_2345.html

[avanti]

When we ordered our semi-custom build from GWV, I specified these little cubbies for holding miscellany at bedtime:

IMG_12.JPG

These work great, except that of course there is no room for insulation between them and the skin of the van. As a result, when it is frigid outside, there is an unbelievable amount of "cold" radiating from these openings (The problem is radiant--there is no air leakage). We solve the problem by stuffing spare clothing into them, but it is a graphic reminder of what a difference even small gaps in the insulation can make.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I've seen it discussed. I don't recall an installation.

Embassy RV builds Transit B-vans everyday with Espar gasoline heating systems.

[jakegw2]

Your van is an older vehicle, and I don't think you are looking for a spaceship, just something that can safely be used in moderately colder weather. With that in mind here are my value-engineered recommendations (many have already been mentioned) in order of priority:

1. Insulating cover for your cab windows - the single biggest heat-loss area

2. Insulating curtain to separate the cab from the chassis (the cab leaks air and has little to no insulation, unlike the coach part of the van that is better on both counts).

3. Cut vent holes (with nice vent covers) in your cabinets with water lines behind or inside of them. This will allow heat to circulate and keep them above freezing. If you want make this step even easier just leave one drawer and one door open per cabinet - this will serve the same purpose as the vents, though if you have places where the lines run between the back of the cabinet and the wall you will still need to cut vent holes.

4. Use RV antifreeze in increasingly larger quantities (more as the temperature drops) in your black and grey tanks. Run your tank heaters if you have them and are plugged in. If you don't have tank heaters consider adding them. This is a fairly simple upgrade - run wires from your DC panel to your tanks and stick a self-adhesive heating pad on them.

5. Insulating cover for your fan vents

6. Insulating cover for your coach windows

7. Skip using the water system. Bring a porta-potti and put it in the bath as an alternative.

Depending on how cold it is I would start at #1 and move down for progressively lower temperatures. None of these are expensive or particularly difficult.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by jakegw2

Your van is an older vehicle, and I don't think you are looking for a spaceship, just something that can safely be used in moderately colder weather. With that in mind here are my value-engineered recommendations (many have already been mentioned) in order of priority:

1. Insulating cover for your cab windows - the single biggest heat-loss area

2. Insulating curtain to separate the cab from the chassis (the cab leaks air and has little to no insulation, unlike the coach part of the van that is better on both counts).

3. Cut vent holes (with nice vent covers) in your cabinets with water lines behind or inside of them. This will allow heat to circulate and keep them above freezing. If you want make this step even easier just leave one drawer and one door open per cabinet - this will serve the same purpose as the vents, though if you have places where the lines run between the back of the cabinet and the wall you will still need to cut vent holes.

4. Use RV antifreeze in increasingly larger quantities (more as the temperature drops) in your black and grey tanks. Run your tank heaters if you have them and are plugged in. If you don't have tank heaters consider adding them. This is a fairly simple upgrade - run wires from your DC panel to your tanks and stick a self-adhesive heating pad on them.

5. Insulating cover for your fan vents

6. Insulating cover for your coach windows

7. Skip using the water system. Bring a porta-potti and put it in the bath as an alternative.

Depending on how cold it is I would start at #1 and move down for progressively lower temperatures. None of these are expensive or particularly difficult.

Good list, I think.

#7, "porta-potti" is large, Wag Bags in the toilet.

#8 IF the winds are high with some, all? B's? During 'Burning Man' some use the blue? painters tape on all the doors during dust storms. I had experienced that kind of thing once for a few hours. So a few years later, I had some reason to turn on the Fantastic Fan with van all closed up. Then started to open a window and stopped. Turned the fan on high, felt air going out the top with my hand. Turned the fan off and reversed the air slow, then could really feel the air coming in. Might be worth doing during an extended cold front with high winds?

Enjoyed the list, thanks for posting.

[Calson]

The hoses are plastic and able to expand if the water becomes frozen. My prior RV had no insulation for the water pipes and one time when we spent several days where the temperatures day and night were in the teens the water became frozen to the point where the water pump was struggling. We drove to a warmer location with above freezing temperatures during the day and the water lines quickly thawed.

A trick that works is to have a spigot open slightly so water dribbles out onto the ground. This works quite well to avoid frozen pipes or hose bibs.

I have also used the expansive foam in a can to seal air gaps in the camper and this also helps to reduce rodent exploration.

[Pam G]

Originally Posted by dblang7@gmail.com

Thanks all for the conversation. I kinda figure it is probably easiest to winterize the plumbing and go that route. Still use it just not the water system and tanks. Maybe hard on my old bladder at night. We just love this rig being it's a little older it's not that great on gas about 12 mpg but it sure has a lot of power and will be easy to work on. Thanks again until next time see ya.

You can still use the toilet. Just flush the toilet with antifreeze instead of using the freshwater tank.

[DLR]

A couple of weeks ago I went camping in my Roadtrek 190, at night the temp. was in the mid 20s and daytime around 35 degrees. My van has 2 fresh water tanks one inside for winter use, I winterized the outside tank and water lines to it, including outside shower and used the inside tank only. I put antifreeze in black and gray tanks, we were away for 3 days and had no problems.

[gilly]

I have a 2000 PW Lexor do I have to worry about the fresh water tank freezing or only the grey & black tanks? I have insulated covers for the windows but the cold air really comes in through the doors. Would replacing the seals fix this or is there another option?

[Rlum]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Embassy RV builds Transit B-vans everyday with Espar gasoline heating systems.

Embassy really insulates their vans extremely well. I believe they do not even have windows. Just 4 fans to bring in fresh air.

I understand the owner will take you out ice fishing in the van to allow you test the warmth. He says he has never received a complaint about being cold?

Same for the air conditioner. Because of the great insulation, ac functions really well. Vans like PW, etc have panoramic windows for great viewing but do not function well in inclement weather.

[Davydd]

This is a good video about van insulation by Advanced RV. They have over 10 years used about every type. They use a Thinsulate insulation now. My former ARV van had recycled blue denim and was still good after 94,000 miles and numerous winter camping adventures. While I had mine built the wool insulated one they mention was getting underway. I may have to watch the video again but what was not said I think was the Dynamat soundproofing fully against the inside walls. That 1/8” foil faced rubber had to help.

What we know and don’t know about insulation

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by gilly

I have a 2000 PW Lexor do I have to worry about the fresh water tank freezing or only the grey & black tanks? I have insulated covers for the windows but the cold air really comes in through the doors. Would replacing the seals fix this or is there another option?

It would be interesting to know what the total heat loss / R value is in my Class B. It must be very low even with my self made thinsulate window covers. There is minimal insulation in the floor, in the cab area, etc..

I will never have any water in my freshwater lines, water pump, valves, water heater, etc with a temperature under 32 degrees.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Rlum

Embassy really insulates their vans extremely well. I believe they do not even have windows. Just 4 fans to bring in fresh air.

I understand the owner will take you out ice fishing in the van to allow you test the warmth. He says he has never received a complaint about being cold?

Same for the air conditioner. Because of the great insulation, ac functions really well. Vans like PW, etc have panoramic windows for great viewing but do not function well in inclement weather.

What is their insulation? "We use 8 layers of specialized aircraft insulation that allows all of our other systems to become ultra-efficient." Do you happen to know what these 8 layers are? to validate your comments "insulates their vans extermely well"

[Belzar]

In addition to reflectix in windows, we have an insulated curtain that we hang across the rear of the van with a tension rod and one across the side door that is held up with magnets. This significantly cuts the drafts and adds insulation. The curtains are made from sheets that are lined with inexpensive fabric used to insulate ironing board covers. (We camp year-round, often in below 0F conditions.)

[Davydd]

You are never going to insulate a van totally satisfactorily considering the windows which are desirable most of the year, the thin walls with many conductive metal points and the thin floors no matter how much you insulate them. You need an adequate heater to bring up the interior to a comfortable level and a thermal break from touching metal and windows which most all finished out vans have with interior walls and curtains. We’ve winter camped with three different vans since 2005 with various insulation qualities and I assume our current one is better. They were all adequate. The degree and quality of insulation is just going to save on a fuel source which is probably negligible.

We carry water in the winter in gallon jugs for drinking. We flush grey and black tanks with RV anti-freeze and we can endure a week of 24/7 freezing temperatures (as we have done it) and seek any dumping when you get above freezing. The latter you should plan in advance. We go to the Winter Freezeout in Tahquamenon Falls SP in Michigan’s UP in January and there are several (up to 30) Class B’s of every make and year enduring a weekend. So I know I am right. The last one we broke camp to come home in -15 degrees F.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You are never going to insulate a van totally satisfactorily considering the windows which are desirable most of the year, the thin walls with many conductive metal points and the thin floors no matter how much you insulate them. You need an adequate heater to bring up the interior to a comfortable level and a thermal break from touching metal and windows which most all finished out vans have with interior walls and curtains. We’ve winter camped with three different vans since 2005 with various insulation qualities and I assume our current one is better. They were all adequate. The degree and quality of insulation is just going to save on a fuel source which is probably negligible.

Agree.
If you have a powerful heat source (such as one of the larger Espars), more insulation is essentially about fuel economy, not feasibility. It DOES also improve comfort, though, since cold surfaces produce radiant cooling, even when the air is warm. You do have to make sure warm air gets into cabinets and other areas where there are hidden pipes.

Ever since we copied ARVs wonderful idea of using the Espar hydronic return lines to heat exposed tanks and plumbing, we routinely camp below freezing using all plumbing. Never an issue, even with the dump lines.