Winnebago Travato 59KL (Lithium vs. generator)

[davedutah]

The KL system is supposed to power the A/C for 5-6 hours. That may be enough for you. On some nights, you probably don't need to run it ALL night.

I think the KL GU recharges the batteries in 1.4 hours. It can also be configured to autostart the GU when the batteries get low, and then with the motor fast-idling at 1600rpm you could run the A/C indefinitely (until you run out of gas).

[Rico52]

Originally Posted by HawkTX

Looking at this unit hard. Love the thought of not having a loud generator, but wanted to see what the issues so far have been with this system.

I'm more of a hit the road randomly type person that rarely plugs up to electricity in parks. I usually overnight park in truck stops, Cracker Barrels, etc. Would be using the AC and Heater frequently overnight and then hitting the road and charging the batteries the next day.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this unit with the Lithium package vs generator.

We have a Travato KL and so far love it. The best part is being able to be totally spontaneous. No matter where we go, we have all the power we need. There are some compromises, however. The fresh water and holding tanks are smaller than some other class Bs so you have to be conscious of them. We see class B motorhomes fitting the "on the go all the time" niche anyway so there is always opportunities to pump and dump tanks. We rarely spend more than 2 nights in one spot (usually 1) anyway. If you did, you could always drive to empty/fill tanks and go back. So if that fits your plans you won't be disappointed with your choice.

[GigaGeek]

Booster, I agree with you wholeheartedly on the superiority of the Winnebago-Volta system. I'm just wondering if it is worth the steep price premium, given that it will exceed my needs.

If the Roadtrek has indeed improved the parasitic losses of Ecotrek as significantly as some claim, Ecotrek 400 might be all I need. I'll be watching that closely.

Getting back to a more basic level, If we disregard the Lithium battery aspect in the comparison between the Zion and the Travato 59K, at this point, I would probably choose a Zion with Underhood Generator, Voltstart, and AGM batteries over a Travato with an Onan generator and AGMs.

I find it interesting that Roadtrek is now attempting to leapfrog Winnebago-Volta by introducing a fuel cell system. That could end up being a good system to upgrade to later. The marketplace is getting more interesting every day!

Originally Posted by booster

GigaGeek may want to read up a bit on the Roadtrek lithium packages and past/current problems that have been discussed here at length. This includes not only the batteries, but the supporting cast as well, such as the Magnum/Sensata inverter charger solar unit unit in the Volta system compared to low end Asian private label products in the Roadtrek. Also be aware that parasitic losses in the Roadtrek system are going to cost you nearly 100ah per day for each module that you have on, so if you have two on to cover AC overnight, you would lose essentially 1/2 the capacity of the battery bank in 24 hours to parasitic waste. You also have to control the modules on and off manually so they aren't constantly wasting power when you don't need them on.

We don't know much about the Volta reliability yet, but a lot of us are guessing, and hoping to be right, that it will be much more reliable than the Roadtrek setup has been.

If the other factors are even close to being equal or at least acceptable between the Travato and the Roadtreks, the 48volt, very rapid charging, higher capacity Volta would certainly make the difference for me.

[Rico52]

Originally Posted by GigaGeek

Booster, I agree with you wholeheartedly on the superiority of the Winnebago-Volta system. I'm just wondering if it is worth the steep price premium, given that it will exceed my needs.

If the Roadtrek has indeed significantly improved the parasitic losses of Ecotrek, Ecotrek 400 might be all I need. I'll be watching that closely.

Getting back to a more basic level, If we disregard the Lithium battery aspect in the comparison between the Zion and the Travato 59K, at this point, I would probably choose a Zion with Underhood Generator, Voltstart, and AGM batteries over a Travato with an Onan generator and AGMs.

I find it interesting that Roadtrek is now attempting to leapfrog Winnebago-Volta by introducing a fuel cell system. That could end up being a good system to upgrade to later. The marketplace is getting more interesting every day!

Before we decided on the Travato KL we were seriously considering the Pleasureway Lexor, Zion and also Hymer Active 2.0. We liked the feel and luxury, layout and auto-start feature of the PW, but not the generator. We loved the front lounge and sky light, etc. of the Hymer, but not the cassette toilet (plus we need twin beds and the rear sofa arrangement was too short for me at 5'10 1/2"). Once we decided we didn't want a generator or AGM type batteries, it was down to the Zion or moving up to the Travato KL. We went from one to the other for quite a while and decided that having the bathroom in the rear thus opening up the coach more was more consistent with our lifestyle (our house is a totally open floor plan as well). We weren't on a really tight budget so for us the extra cost was worth it. Someone gave us the advice not to cut too many corners and end up in a coach that you don't really like or it could spoil the entire experience. We don't regret our decision at all.

[HawkTX]

Originally Posted by Rico52

We have a Travato KL and so far love it. The best part is being able to be totally spontaneous. No matter where we go, we have all the power we need. There are some compromises, however. The fresh water and holding tanks are smaller than some other class Bs so you have to be conscious of them. We see class B motorhomes fitting the "on the go all the time" niche anyway so there is always opportunities to pump and dump tanks. We rarely spend more than 2 nights in one spot (usually 1) anyway. If you did, you could always drive to empty/fill tanks and go back. So if that fits your plans you won't be disappointed with your choice.

That’s awesome! That’s exactly the type of travel I’m used to. I just sold my Winnebago View that had a diesel generator. I want something a little more stealthy.

[Gosman]

I think the power cell system that Hymer will be using, will be the killer technology that will make all others obsolete. I would wait for that!

[booster]

Originally Posted by Gosman

I think the power cell system that Hymer will be using, will be the killer technology that will make all others obsolete. I would wait for that!

There is a thread on this forum about the fuel cell that is pretty interesting. The biggest deal appears to be very short life of the catalyst cell, and we don't know what the replacement costs would be yet. Of course the initial cost is also very high.

[GigaGeek]

That makes me think that if I choose a Zion it might make sense to pass over the lithium batteries for now in favor of AGMs, GU, Voltstart and 270w solar. It should be possible to upfit the fuel cell tech later. Regardless, my first upgrade will likely be a BlueSky MPPT charge controller.

Would anyone like to share their experience with a late model Roadtrek with AGMs, GU, Voltstart and solar?

Originally Posted by Gosman

I think the power cell system that Hymer will be using, will be the killer technology that will make all others obsolete. I would wait for that!

[Gosman]

Originally Posted by booster

There is a thread on this forum about the fuel cell that is pretty interesting. The biggest deal appears to be very short life of the catalyst cell, and we don't know what the replacement costs would be yet. Of course the initial cost is also very high.

What I'm hearing is that the cost will be mitigated by not having to procure a generator, Volt Start systems, etc. The company is acting like it would be an even wash.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Gosman

What I'm hearing is that the cost will be mitigated by not having to procure a generator, Volt Start systems, etc. The company is acting like it would be an even wash.

That would be an interesting cost comparison to see, as we never had full costs for fuel cell operation over time in the last discussion. We did have some information that indicated only 3000 operating hours before the cell needed to be replaced, but never saw a cost of the renewed cells so couldn't do any kind of cost analysis from that. If you are running AC a lot, 3000 hours is not all that much as it would only cover 10 hours a day for 300 days.


Hopefully, they will publish the operating cost data so everyone can judge for themselves. Of course, if Roadtrek does the comparison history would indicate that the results may be very skewed to look better.

[HawkTX]

My main reason for wanting the Pure 3 system vs a generator is the maintenance, but even more so where they put the generators on these b vans is tough to get to. I'm 6'1 about 200 plus lbs and it is like a magic show trying to get under there to do anything like an oil change.

Is that worth $20K plus more??? Maybe....

[VocalVirgo]

Originally Posted by ponti33602

We have 400 Lithium batteries and no generator on our 2017 Agile. We rarely use AC but if we did you would need to be plugged in. The lithiums work great for everything else but they will not run your AC over night.

These battery/inverter combos do run the a/c. That’s the whole reason they were made.

The Lithium 400’s that we looked at all ran the a/c. The one that I tested last, at the dealer, ran for 4 hours before shutting down. We started it and the locked up the van and kept shopping around their lot. No one went in and turned it off.

My (now-for-sale) 2017 ProMaster Sportsmobile runs the not-so-efficient a/c off of 3 AGM batteries (from Walmart) and inverter with no problem for several hours.

[ponti33602]

Originally Posted by VocalVirgo

These battery/inverter combos do run the a/c. That’s the whole reason they were made.



The Lithium 400’s that we looked at all ran the a/c. The one that I tested last, at the dealer, ran for 4 hours before shutting down. We started it and the locked up the van and kept shopping around their lot. No one went in and turned it off.



My (now-for-sale) 2017 ProMaster Sportsmobile runs the not-so-efficient a/c off of 3 AGM batteries (from Walmart) and inverter with no problem for several hours.

Yes. But being from Florida we get asked this all the time and most that ask are really inquiring if they can run all night or 6-8 hours and they really don’t without the under hood generator firing off. A few hours here and there are fine.

[Rlum]

Hi: Can you tell me if the Under hood generator has affected your gas mileage?

Thanks

[ponti33602]

Originally Posted by Rlum

Hi: Can you tell me if the Under hood generator has affected your gas mileage?



Thanks

I really do not know. We get between 21-21.5 on the highway driving at 65 mph. I have seen others post higher than that but so much depends on load and speed.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Rlum

Hi: Can you tell me if the Under hood generator has affected your gas mileage?

Thanks

I think it would be reasonable to assume that it would use similar fuel amounts to the 2800 Onan which IIRC is about .5 gallons per hour at full throttle. The 2800 watts would give you 233 amps at 12v but the underhood generator will heat cycle to average something like 170 amps. That would ratio out to about .36 gal per hour. 60mph at 20mpg is 3 gallons an hour, and 60mph using 3.36 gallons is about 17.8mpg.



Calculation check welcome.

[Rlum]

Hi: I do not have UG. I do not get that good mileage on my PW lexor TS. Best I have gotten is 19mpg. I am looking at getting aftermarket high amp alternator. Currently upgrading my lithium to 400Ah with 3000 watt inverter. I will still be using Onan or shore power to charge the banks. Seems like the Onan putting out that many amps should charge my bank faster? I will be installing a victron 3000 watt inverter/charger. It is suppose to put out 50 amps. It will take a long time to charge 400 Ah lithium at 50amps/hr?

Thanks!

[booster]

Originally Posted by Rlum

Hi: I do not have UG. I do not get that good mileage on my PW lexor TS. Best I have gotten is 19mpg. I am looking at getting aftermarket high amp alternator. Currently upgrading my lithium to 400Ah with 3000 watt inverter. I will still be using Onan or shore power to charge the banks. Seems like the Onan putting out that many amps should charge my bank faster? I will be installing a victron 3000 watt inverter/charger. It is suppose to put out 50 amps. It will take a long time to charge 400 Ah lithium at 50amps/hr?

Thanks!

How long the Onan takes to charge the batteries will depend on how big the Charger section of the inverter is, if it is an inverter/charger, or how big the the charger is if it is a standalone. Most of the chargers will be about 100 amps at the higher end, maybe 120 amps from what I have seen, so it is going to take a while to recharge a big bank with the Onan. It appears that with 30 amp rated input for shore power, they only like to allocate about 1/2 of it or less to charging, so 100-120 max amps. You likely will be looking at 3-4 hours of Onan on time to charge back the full 400ah if that is actual usable capacity.

[TRFranta]

Originally Posted by ponti33602

We have 400 Lithium batteries and no generator on our 2017 Agile. We rarely use AC but if we did you would need to be plugged in. The lithiums work great for everything else but they will not run your AC over night.

Pure 3 will run several hours without being hooked up according to Winnebago

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by TRFranta

Pure 3 will run several hours without being hooked up according to Winnebago

Two hours and one minute satisfies the definition of "several" hours.