Winnebago Solis Pocket campervan

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

So why this comment ? "more usable floor plan than the standard Westphalia" Spelling - it is Westfalia.

According to spell check, your spelling is wrong. lol Based on the spelling of the city of the same name in Germany. From a phonetic standpoint, they are the same, of course.

Many don't find it convenient to have most of the floor area be the bed... unless you unmake the bed back into a sofa every day to get back a few more feet. And this new plan is more usable because you can put up the platform bed and use your van... as a van to haul stuff.

That is why I say that it is more usable.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

According to spell check, your spelling is wrong. lol Based on the spelling of the city of the same name in Germany. From a phonetic standpoint, they are the same, of course.

Many don't find it convenient to have most of the floor area be the bed... unless you unmake the bed back into a sofa every day to get back a few more feet. And this new plan is more usable because you can put up the platform bed and use your van... as a van to haul stuff.

That is why I say that it is more usable.

For us sleeping side to side was not possible so fore and aft was the only option. With folding bed back 3’ we gain 13.5 SF of floor space trading with time of making bed every day. For us it was a good tradeoff especially as it takes seconds to switch from sofa to bed and reverse.

Westphalia is a region in Germany, so your spelling software is correct - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westph...%20inhabitants.

Westfalia camper van company has different spelling, been there picking up my camper in 1985 so I remember, you can add this to your spell checker. https://www.westfalia-mobil.com/en/news/news.php

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

For us sleeping side to side was not possible so fore and aft was the only option. With folding bed back 3’ we gain 13.5 SF of floor space trading with time of making bed every day. For us it was a good tradeoff especially as it takes seconds to switch from sofa to bed and reverse.

I've never seen any numbers to support this, but a significant number of B owners are single... with most probably being women. Since GWV went out of business, there was really no converter catering to that very large market. My analysis of more usability is based on these single travelers, while yours is based on a couple.

Plus I like being able to have the aisle front to back if and when needed.

Another change I see is an increasing number of younger RVers. They seem more comfortable with portipotty/cold shower situations than us older folks who prefer our comforts. lol And the new popularity of pop-tops for the kids. I expect that we will see this one appear with a pop-top too.

Different strokes... converters seems to be starting to pay attention to my (and other single travelers) complaints of so few short options other than Sprinter, a platform I find much too problematic.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I've never seen any numbers to support this, but a significant number of B owners are single... with most probably being women. Since GWV went out of business, there was really no converter catering to that very large market. My analysis of more usability is based on these single travelers, while yours is based on a couple.

Plus I like being able to have the aisle front to back if and when needed.

Another change I see is an increasing number of younger RVers. They seem more comfortable with portipotty/cold shower situations than us older folks who prefer our comforts. lol And the new popularity of pop-tops for the kids. I expect that we will see this one appear with a pop-top too.

Different strokes... converters seems to be starting to pay attention to my (and other single travelers) complaints of so few short options other than Sprinter, a platform I find much too problematic.

There is no reason for manufacturers not to provide a range pf B class camper vans to serve singles, couples or young families. Foreseeing future business opportunities for B class market and invest for it is rare here, B-class tend to operate in a reactionary mode with strategies for maximum profit. So, this is the market we have. Camper van business in Europe is very different, many offerings in designs and costs unleashed by upfront investments in R&D, marketing and 21-st Century manufacturing. So here we have, a chicken and an egg dilemma, chicken making eggs in Europe and eggs feeding chicken in NA.

If Steve Jobs would wait until the market would tell him what to do the smart phone invention would need to wait many years, if ever. Admitting to copying a DIY design is a prime example of reactionary marketing. Unfortunately, this example represents the B-class business dilemma in NA.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I've never seen any numbers to support this, but a significant number of B owners are single... with most probably being women. Since GWV went out of business, there was really no converter catering to that very large market. My analysis of more usability is based on these single travelers, while yours is based on a couple.

Plus I like being able to have the aisle front to back if and when needed.

Another change I see is an increasing number of younger RVers. They seem more comfortable with portipotty/cold shower situations than us older folks who prefer our comforts. lol And the new popularity of pop-tops for the kids. I expect that we will see this one appear with a pop-top too.

Different strokes... converters seems to be starting to pay attention to my (and other single travelers) complaints of so few short options other than Sprinter, a platform I find much too problematic.

Just run into this one, making your point.

"Ilsa Chapple owns the Cascade Campers build shop in Seattle, one of the company’s two locations. Customers drop off a specific type of cargo van, and for $8,000, Chapple adds “everything you need in a camper van,” including a bed, curtains and a fridge. The process usually takes two days at Chapple’s Seattle shop or one day at Cascade Campers’ Nevada City, California, location. Recently, Chapple has been experiencing shipping delays.
“It’s as if the beginning of COVID is happening again in terms of the supply chain,” she said. “Batteries and fridges are always the two main items that are harder to get. We’ve even had a hard time getting foam and upholstery.”

Chapple said her largest demographic for camper van conversions is retired, senior women. People are often surprised to hear that, but Chapple thinks they feel safer staying in a van than they might in a tent.
“Perhaps a partner has passed or a divorce has happened, and they’re on their own for the first time in a long time,” she said. “I’ve heard a lot of stories from customers of, ‘Now is my time to make the decisions for myself, and I didn’t get to do that a lot of my life.'”"

https://www.marketplace.org/2021/04/...g-camper-vans/

[mumkin]

Thanks... for finding someone to confirm what I was seeing both in campgrounds and online.

Interesting that she seems to be only doing the little Promaster City. No wonder her conversions are so reasonably priced.

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

MsNomer are you referring to the Solis Pocket's bike and gear storage area under the raised Murphy bed? That seems like a huge benefit for those of us transporting high end bikes, foldable kayaks, and similar bulky gear.

Of course you could leave the Murphy bed in the down position for a permanent bed solution. But although I can't personally forgo a wet bath, I believe Solis is the only US production Class B with interior bike storage (rear storage in the Solis PX, underbed storage in the Solis Pocket).

That benefit is something I'd like to see in more Class B's.

You are correct. Since such toys are not on my radar, I didn’t think about them.

[pacificstar]

Everyone makes decisions for their own lifestyle. There are a lot of choices out there. We are happy/satisfied owners of a 2021 Solis with our price under $80,000 with everything we wanted in a under 20 feet Class B. The Pocket would not be an option for us mainly because of no bathroom. The under the Murphy bed is great storage however its not as much of a selling point if you keep the bed set up all the time like we do. The storage areas are great in the Solis I have lots of empty spaces still. I wish you all the best in your searching and making memories in the RV of your choice.

[Scottbaldassari]

George your prices are pretty far off from what I am seeing. When I build a Van on RAMS site, I repeatedly come up with $45,000, not $35,000. Anyone who has been around a bit knows that practically NO ONE buys a Winnebago at MSRP, and 30% discounts are there for the taking - that would put the Solis Pocket at $67,000. That's a difference of $22K for the build, NOT $60K as you quoted. For $67K you can't buy a Suburban these days, and I'm guessing you'd also be hard pressed to find even a cheaply built small class C, which you can ONLY use for camping (they don't really double as a 2nd car).
For $22K one gets operable windows, screens. window covers, a galley, dinette, bed, plumbing. batteries, solar, electrical, insulation, a floor, ceiling, walls, water tanks, air conditioning, heating, a fan, solar, etc. For those who are intimidated, or just do not want to build a Van or deal with a custom builder to get one built, I'd say the "value" might be better than the picture you paint. The 18' length puts it in the 2nd car category, which could have appeal for many.
I personally have been looking for a Promaster as a daily driver - RAM does not make a passenger van (and I don't really need one anyway, I need the cargo carrying ability and a mobile office). Outfitters that make nice passenger Vans are well above the selling price of this pocket.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by Scottbaldassari

George your prices are pretty far off from what I am seeing. When I build a Van on RAMS site, I repeatedly come up with $45,000, not $35,000. Anyone who has been around a bit knows that practically NO ONE buys a Winnebago at MSRP, and 30% discounts are there for the taking - that would put the Solis Pocket at $67,000. That's a difference of $22K for the build, NOT $60K as you quoted. For $67K you can't buy a Suburban these days, and I'm guessing you'd also be hard pressed to find even a cheaply built small class C, which you can ONLY use for camping (they don't really double as a 2nd car).
For $22K one gets operable windows, a galley, dinette, bed, plumbing. batteries, solar, electrical, insulation, a floor, ceiling, walls, water tanks, air conditioning, heating, fans, solar, etc. For those who are intimidated or just do not want to build a Van or deal with a custom builder to get one built, I'd say the "value" might be better than the picture you paint. The 18' length puts it in the 2nd car category, which could have appeal for many.

Scott, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I see the value for the non-DIY buyer. Love the indoor all-the-time bicycle (or other large gear) storage. Love the couch mode and the small bed for a child. You could probably even eliminate the rear facing seat and thereby have room for additional storage (or even a toilet with a black tank). The 3rd passenger could sleep cross coach (similar to the original Revel). The driver’s seat when rotated could complete the dinette. The trick with the ultimate price may be getting the typical Winnebago discount off MSRP, but I personally haven’t been in negotiations during the pandemic RV sales surge.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Scottbaldassari

George your prices are pretty far off from what I am seeing. When I build a Van on RAMS site, I repeatedly come up with $45,000, not $35,000. Anyone who has been around a bit knows that practically NO ONE buys a Winnebago at MSRP, and 30% discounts are there for the taking - that would put the Solis Pocket at $67,000. That's a difference of $22K for the build, NOT $60K as you quoted. For $67K you can't buy a Suburban these days, and I'm guessing you'd also be hard pressed to find even a cheaply built small class C, which you can ONLY use for camping (they don't really double as a 2nd car).
For $22K one gets operable windows, screens. window covers, a galley, dinette, bed, plumbing. batteries, solar, electrical, insulation, a floor, ceiling, walls, water tanks, air conditioning, heating, a fan, solar, etc. For those who are intimidated, or just do not want to build a Van or deal with a custom builder to get one built, I'd say the "value" might be better than the picture you paint. The 18' length puts it in the 2nd car category, which could have appeal for many.
I personally have been looking for a Promaster as a daily driver - RAM does not make a passenger van (and I don't really need one anyway, I need the cargo carrying ability and a mobile office). Outfitters that make nice passenger Vans are well above the selling price of this pocket.

I converted 2013 Sprinter passenger van, van was $50K, all HDPE CNCed, all 80/20 machined at the factory, hardware from 80/20, SS fasteners from McMaster Carr, SS tanks, conversion cost me less than $20K.

RVs manufactured on automotive level manufacturing line should be less expensive than mom and pop or DIY van, try to buy a van built in total, chassis and conversion by Outside Van.

Must be an explanation why camper vans built on Fiats in EU cost much less.

EDIT This is the factory I want to visit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NbVFbgGRx4

[Scottbaldassari]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I converted 2013 Sprinter passenger van, van was $50K, all HDPE CNCed, all 80/20 machined at the factory, hardware from 80/20, SS fasteners from McMaster Carr, SS tanks, conversion cost me less than $20K.

RVs manufactured on automotive level manufacturing line should be less expensive than mom and pop or DIY van, try to buy a van built in total, chassis and conversion by Outside Van.

Must be an explanation why camper vans built on Fiats in EU cost much less.

Yes. I don't mean to argue the price, or say that someone couldn't build it better or cheaper themselves, only that if you DON'T WANT TO (or can't) do that, buying a rig from Winnebago right off a dealers lot could be pretty appealing for some.
I studied building my own rig for TWO years; on the web, researching, pricing, designing, locating parts etc... When I finally determined I probably didn't have the skills, tools and time to build my own. I tried to find a builder to BUILD my dream van. After months of that, I realized I wasn't going to get exactly what I wanted from a custom builder, and it was going to cost me more than it would to buy a "Factory made" RV. Winnebago made a couple more incremental improvements and I went out one day and bought a Travato and have spent the last 5 years having a ball.
Building an RV isn't for everyone.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I converted 2013 Sprinter passenger van, van was $50K, all HDPE CNCed, all 80/20 machined at the factory, hardware from 80/20, SS fasteners from McMaster Carr, SS tanks, conversion cost me less than $20K.

RVs manufactured on automotive level manufacturing line should be less expensive than mom and pop or DIY van, try to buy a van built in total, chassis and conversion by Outside Van.

Must be an explanation why camper vans built on Fiats in EU cost much less.

I’m curious. How many total hours of your time from initial planning to final product? Also the Fiat RV’s in Europe have smaller/less HP engines, smaller tires and other differences. So not apples to apples. The market ultimately decides what is overpriced. Most people in the market don’t fall in the DIY camp. I personally got a great deal on my Safari Condo Promaster XL Flex (checked all our boxes fortunately and total price under $80K thanks to a favorable CDN exchange rate), but there was extra hoops to jump through and a 12 month wait. Again few would be willing to hassle, but it worked well with my time table. My profession’s hourly wage makes that a better option than spending those hours fumbling through a DIY project.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Scottbaldassari

Yes. I don't mean to argue the price, or say that someone couldn't build it better or cheaper themselves, only that if you DON'T WANT TO (or can't) do that, buying a rig from Winnebago right off a dealers lot could be pretty appealing for some.
I studied building my own rig for TWO years; on the web, researching, pricing, designing, locating parts etc... When I finally determined I probably didn't have the skills, tools and time to build my own. I tried to find a builder to BUILD my dream van. After months of that, I realized I wasn't going to get exactly what I wanted from a custom builder, and it was going to cost me more than it would to buy a "Factory made" RV. Winnebago made a couple more incremental improvements and I went out one day and bought a Travato and have spent the last 5 years having a ball.
Building an RV isn't for everyone.

The primary reason for us taking the DIY route was lack of product on the market which we wanted, short wheel base, 360-degree windows and Westfalia like layout. Safari Condo came very close but in 2013 it would be a major headache to bring one to Oregon. I copied their cassette verbatim.

Since 2013 we have Promaster and Ford an many more camper van options, so today I am not sure I would go to DIY route. We are in Europe about 3 month every year, and I am drooling there visiting some camper van dealers. Next year we are planning about 2 month trip to Greece, hopefully I will be able to finely visit Adria manufacturing plant in Slovenia, so I can drool more.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

I’m curious. How many total hours of your time from initial planning to final product? Also the Fiat RV’s in Europe have smaller/less HP engines, smaller tires and other differences. So not apples to apples. The market ultimately decides what is overpriced. Most people in the market don’t fall in the DIY camp. I personally got a great deal on my Safari Condo Promaster XL Flex (checked all our boxes fortunately and total price under $80K thanks to a favorable CDN exchange rate), but there was extra hoops to jump through and a 12 month wait. Again few would be willing to hassle, but it worked well with my time table. My profession’s hourly wage makes that a better option than spending those hours fumbling through a DIY project.

I didn’t track it, the van was “campabale” in 3-4 month of work. My engineering time was equivalent to about 3-4 months 8hrs per day so let’s say $40K. Building a second one would take me about $20K, 20 units would cost about $2-3K of engineering per unit.

Campervans in Europe are less expensive because they don’t use black tanks, they usually combined water and space heating into one cheaper unit, they use cheap LPG systems, they drive slower, they have smaller engines with 3 gears manual transmissions, they use cheap plastics instead of quality hardwood, they don't use staples except upholstery, and many, many more reasons, right.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

The primary reason for us taking the DIY route was lack of product on the market which we wanted, short wheel base, 360-degree windows and Westfalia like layout. Safari Condo came very close but in 2013 it would be a major headache to bring one to Oregon. I copied their cassette verbatim.

Since 2013 we have Promaster and Ford an many more camper van options, so today I am not sure I would go to DIY route. We are in Europe about 3 month every year, and I am drooling there visiting some camper van dealers. Next year we are planning about 2 month trip to Greece, hopefully I will be able to finely visit Adria manufacturing plant in Slovenia, so I can drool more.

We brought ours all the way to Texas (empty van was delivered to Vermont, four hours from the factory, drove it south after conversion) and now to Bend. 😎

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I didn’t track it, the van was “campabale” in 3-4 month of work. My engineering time was equivalent to about 3-4 months 8hrs per day so let’s say $40K. Building a second one would take me about $20K, 20 units would cost about $2-3K of engineering per unit.

Campervans in Europe are less expensive because they don’t use black tanks, they usually combined water and space heating into one cheaper unit, they use cheap LPG systems, they drive slower, they have smaller engines with 3 gears manual transmissions, they use cheap plastics instead of quality hardwood, they don't use staples except upholstery, and many, many more reasons, right.

Sounds like you are in a great position to take on Winnebago and their inflated prices.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

Sounds like you are in a great position to take on Winnebago and their inflated prices.

I did in my own little world, just like many other DIY folks do, being retire for a while I had time. What is amazing that there are no DIY folks making Chevy Malibu, it could cost more, I think. So what is the difference?

In 1977 my VW Westfalia was $7k, so was the Volvo. In 1985 my VW Westfalia was $20K, so was the Volvo, today Volvo is $50K, well, VW Westfalia is missing in action but close cousin from Winnebago is $96K.

[CalVan]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My bare cargo van cost over $55,000 so you can blow that DIY cost dream out of the water....

Due to our oversea trips, we have postponed our search for a brand new cargo van for conversion. I found an individual who did a fantastic job for his own camper and he would do the conversion for me. I am thinking of getting a Sprinter for about $50K and spending 20 to 30K for conversion. Now compare that with the Revel that starts from $185,838....

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I did in my own little world, just like many other DIY folks do, being retire for a while I had time. What is amazing that there are no DIY folks making Chevy Malibu, it could cost more, I think. So what is the difference?

In 1977 my VW Westfalia was $7k, so was the Volvo. In 1985 my VW Westfalia was $20K, so was the Volvo, today Volvo is $50K, well, VW Westfalia is missing in action but close cousin from Winnebago is $96K.

Educated buyers aren’t paying MSRP, but rather ~ 30% off.