Why no insulation in Roadtrek

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

WHY don't you go to a dealership and look at the Roadtrek in person?
My 2012 Roadtrek Adventurous is very nicely appointed with a padded ceiling, upholstered walls and cherry wood cabinets... It's remarkably well built... there's soft vinyl siding alongside the windows...

I'm sure there's plenty of people who would rather build their own interior...? I decided to purchase a vehicle just produced at the Roadtrek factory and purchased it last year.. I definitely recommend that you purchase a slightly used vehicle if you can find it...may not be easy to do.....

Here's a link to the actual vehicle I purchased..... don't know where you live? I'm told that the dealership I purchased my rig is one of the highest volume dealers in the United States...a lot of people go there to purchase used and they even sell brand new Winnebago ERA models...

https://www.conejowholesaleauto.com/...beffb59e9eb708

Good luck..

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

I was extremely lucky to have found my 2012 Roadtrek RS Adventurous... last May 2017..... they are not a Roadtrek dealership.... BUT, on occasion, I've heard that they have some Pleasure Way and Airstream models ....

I felt like I got a great deal from these people... Look locally and see if you like one of the Class B models... they're all slightly different....

We were going to originally purchase a Winnebago Navion...some people call it a B plus...
Listen, there's no such thing as a B plus! Marketing baloney....

You have to drive one and evaluate for yourself...for me, once I drove the Class B...I was certain that was what I wanted....

Yeah, it's smaller and has less cargo room... take less stuff with you...
Unless you are going to be a FULL TIMER...who needs to take everything...

It's a lot of fuel....all you need to decide after that is gasoline or diesel.... another big decision.

[dhectorg]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

WHY don't you go to a dealership and look at the Roadtrek in person?
My 2012 Roadtrek Adventurous is very nicely appointed with a padded ceiling, upholstered walls and cherry wood cabinets... It's remarkably well built... there's soft vinyl siding alongside the windows...

I'm sure there's plenty of people who would rather build their own interior...? I decided to purchase a vehicle just produced at the Roadtrek factory and purchased it last year.. I definitely recommend that you purchase a slightly used vehicle if you can find it...may not be easy to do.....

Here's a link to the actual vehicle I purchased..... don't know where you live? I'm told that the dealership I purchased my rig is one of the highest volume dealers in the United States...a lot of people go there to purchase used and they even sell brand new Winnebago ERA models...

https://www.conejowholesaleauto.com/...beffb59e9eb708

Good luck..

I've seen many Roadtreks, even traveled in one, and I think they are decent coaches which is why I was planning on buying one. However, no RT owner that I know would deny that there are definitely some build quality/cost cutting issues.

Also, padded interior surfaces are not insulation. The voids below the interior finishes are where insulation needs to be and the lack of sound deadening is a problem too. At the price point Sprinter based RTs sell at, I expect better. We all have to decide for ourselves what we expect to get in a coach at a given price point and I've decided that I can do better than Roadtrek for the money...but that's just me.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Dhectorg,

OK, for us, the Roadtrek works fine... I don't think it's particularly noisy driving... The diesel is pretty quiet...I've been in many gasoline vehicles and climbing mountains the gas engines screaming high RPMs to climb up to the summit...

IDK.... quality is a matter of perception...I don't live in my RV....we use it on vacation and tour. So, all of the concerns about perfect insulation is not an issue..... we're camping!

[GeorgeRa]

DIY fellow shared this video in the Sprinter Forum. 5 years too late for us, had to do my own DIY. Imagine this van at VW dealer for $60-70K. VW would have done “a little better” financially selling Californias in California instead cheating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=1UrqFc3VaDk

[Reed]

We purchased Aluminet 7’ x 8’ last year and used it on our fifth wheel. We used it on our Roadtrek Versatile 190 on beach in Yucatan for four months. The chassis behind it was noticeably cooler than metal exposed to direct sub
Aluminet is a aluminized mesh that permits wind to blow through so there is no heat buildup behind it. It is rated at 70% reflective and comes with eyelets every 2’ so ir can be easily connected to our solar panel mounts by bungie cord. Bungie cords are then used with normal ground stakes.

A number of folks we met in Yucatan and then while in San Miguel de Allende said they plan to buy such.

We have purchase three 12’ x 7’ sheets for summer use with 34’ fifth wheel. One 12’ x 7’ and our original 8’x7’ will be sufficient to totally protect Roadtrek from sun.

Our 315 W and 100 W panels on Roadtrek and 6 x 225 W panels on 5th wheel provide tropical covers

Reed and Elaine

Aluminet is primarily sold by Harden supply companies

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Reed

We purchased Aluminet 7’ x 8’ last year and used it on our fifth wheel. We used it on our Roadtrek Versatile 190 on beach in Yucatan for four months. The chassis behind it was noticeably cooler than metal exposed to direct sub
Aluminet is a aluminized mesh that permits wind to blow through so there is no heat buildup behind it. It is rated at 70% reflective and comes with eyelets every 2’ so ir can be easily connected to our solar panel mounts by bungie cord. Bungie cords are then used with normal ground stakes.

A number of folks we met in Yucatan and then while in San Miguel de Allende said they plan to buy such.

We have purchase three 12’ x 7’ sheets for summer use with 34’ fifth wheel. One 12’ x 7’ and our original 8’x7’ will be sufficient to totally protect Roadtrek from sun.

Our 315 W and 100 W panels on Roadtrek and 6 x 225 W panels on 5th wheel provide tropical covers

Reed and Elaine

Aluminet is primarily sold by Harden supply companies

Very interesting material, thank you for sharing. Amazon sells it as well.

[dhectorg]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

Dhectorg,

OK, for us, the Roadtrek works fine... I don't think it's particularly noisy driving... The diesel is pretty quiet...I've been in many gasoline vehicles and climbing mountains the gas engines screaming high RPMs to climb up to the summit...

IDK.... quality is a matter of perception...I don't live in my RV....we use it on vacation and tour. So, all of the concerns about perfect insulation is not an issue..... we're camping!

You are right that not all buyers need or want the same things in a class B. Some want a bargain and will overlook parts of the build accordingly, while others want every detail to be covered. It's just about individual preferences/expectations and, I admit, my expectations are high...because the cost of these many of these vans is high. Also, I intend to do extended travel in mine and, after I retire, I'll be living in it full time for a few years, so it must be well insulated and built to withstand constant use. Considering my personal needs, Roadtrek falls short.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

...

IDK.... quality is a matter of perception...I don't live in my RV....we use it on vacation and tour. So, all of the concerns about perfect insulation is not an issue..... we're camping!

In what part of California do you reside? (Your ID tile says CA).

On the upper Texas coast, even with my existing window protection in place and the Fantastic fan running to circulate air, the interior of my van can easily reach 107 degrees in summer. There's no "matter of perception" concerning that condition - it's not only unlivable, it's dangerous.

Of course, I usually don't attempt to camp when conditions are that extreme (although I have done it), but it doesn't take anywhere near Houston's southern-hinges-of-hell summer climate to cause a serious heat burden inside the van. This past weekend, we exceeded 90 degrees inside the van for the first time this year as I was doing some DIY in preparation for the travel season. It has been an unusually cool spring.

So yes, I go to great lengths to reduce that burden. I don't know where vacation stops and living begins, but I live in mine for up to a month at a time, without air conditioning. Extra insulation measures really do make a big difference.

[InterBlog]

Multiple comments here... this is proving to be an unusually good thread.

(1) I sure would like to see some photos of the Aluminet and the mylar solutions. Those are both innovations of which I was previously unaware.

Edit: I'd also like some info on how the Aluminet packs down. I'm looking on sellers' websites but I'm not seeing that information. How bulky is it?

(2) As for the window surface getting hot, "Reflectix on the inside is great, but the window still gets very hot on the inside", yes, absolutely. That's why I've been experimenting with a multi-layer solution that includes Insul-bright. Heat still makes it through to the inside of the window, but then its transmission is slowed down considerably by the Insul-bright, which is the same textile used in the core of kitchen pot holders. Think of your window being like a hot pot on the stove or in the oven. It doesn't matter how hot it is if you use a pot holder. In the window insulation context, this is not a miracle solution by any means, but it's certainly superior to Reflectix alone.

(3) A note regarding 3M Thinsulate - there are multiple products bearing the same trademark. The thick wooly insulation is what DIY people are putting in void spaces in their vans, and that is probably one of the measures that I would choose if I were doing a DIY or even a retrofit (I'd try to combine it with a radiant barrier). Prices seem to have come down in the past few years.

There's also a more cohesive textile-like Thinsulate product which is used in clothing and similar applications and which appears quite similar to Insul-bright. I was surprised to find that it, too, seems to have come down in price, and its cost per yard may even be a little better than Insul-bright at this point. I started using Insul-bright when it reached a price tipping point about a year ago, but I could be swayed into using Thinsulate instead, if I saw convincing data.

[Doneworking]

This is a great thread! I have owned two Roadtreks over the years and two other Class Bs. Thinking about this and having 10 of the mylar emergency blankets discussed in this thread due to arrive from Amazon tomorrow, it suddenly occurs to me just how strange it is to discuss how to insulate a vehicle that often costs north of a hundred grand so that it is tolerable on a hot day. Or, even a not so hot day if parked in full sun.

So, my eleven year old RT may soon be draped like the first lunar module and sitting in some nice NF campground at 8 or 9,000 feet above sea level in Colorado while I try to survive. It is almost humorous. I guess that is the reason we carry a nice little screen house with us and wait out the afternoons in camp.

Paul

[avanti]

I have hesitated to enter the "quality" discussion. We should all enjoy what we own and the last thing I would want to do would be to dilute anyone's enjoyment. "Quality" is multi-dimensional, and different dimensions are important to different people.

I will say this, though: One's perception of quality tends to evolve with experience. We owned a 2005 Airstream Interstate for almost a decade. It was a truly great rig with truly awful build quality. The former was obvious on day one. It took me a long time to recognize the latter. That little puddle of water that mysteriously appeared (only) at the beginning of each trip was puzzling but no big deal. It took me three years to discover that Airstream never tightened a hose clamp on the fresh tank vent, and a completely full tank would slosh water out into the insulation, soaking it until it slowly leaked out onto the floor. That is one example of literally dozens of instances of inexcusable sloppiness. None of it was obvious up front.

When I shopped for our second rig, I knew EXACTLY which panels to look behind. As a result, vans that I would have called very well-built the first time around, became non-starters for us the second time.

[booster]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Multiple comments here... this is proving to be an unusually good thread.

(1) I sure would like to see some photos of the Aluminet and the mylar solutions. Those are both innovations of which I was previously unaware.

Edit: I'd also like some info on how the Aluminet packs down. I'm looking on sellers' websites but I'm not seeing that information. How bulky is it?

(2) As for the window surface getting hot, "Reflectix on the inside is great, but the window still gets very hot on the inside", yes, absolutely. That's why I've been experimenting with a multi-layer solution that includes Insul-bright. Heat still makes it through to the inside of the window, but then its transmission is slowed down considerably by the Insul-bright, which is the same textile used in the core of kitchen pot holders. Think of your window being like a hot pot on the stove or in the oven. It doesn't matter how hot it is if you use a pot holder. In the window insulation context, this is not a miracle solution by any means, but it's certainly superior to Reflectix alone.

We have over 20 years of experience and testing with mylar solar shades in our sticks and bricks house, and we are certainly big time fans of them. Putting them on two patio doors reduced our air conditioning costs nearly 30% (Minnesota).

The mylar shades reflect solar energy back out of the window, they don't insulate at all for the most part (good ones will even reflect heat back out of a low E window because they don't disrupt the light's frequency enough to make it get blocked). The fact that this is how they work is why they are so good, and also why they are not as good sometimes.

The tinted windows in our vans from the factory are just tinted glass, nothing really special unless things have changed recently, so they just absorb the solar energy due to their dark color, that is why they get hotter than clear windows. The heat is then either radiated and convected into the van, or from the outside to the atmosphere. You get a heat reduction this way, but not a big heat reduction. If you put a mylar shade on the inside of the dark tint window, whatever solar energy makes it though the window will be reflected back towards the window. At that point, the same thing happens as when the energy came in through the window, some goes out though the window and some is absorbed by the glass and then distributed to either the van or the outside air from the hot glass. The double absorbing of heat in the glass is why the glass gets hotter.

From what I have seen, a dark tinted window with a mylar shade will get substantially hotter than a clear glass one.

So where does this leave you with a van? You will get a reduction in heat from the mylar shade, and more reduction on lower tint than darker tint ones. It will be better than curtains, for certain, by a reasonable amount, but may not net out much better than Reflectix, which also has some small amount of insulating value that helps if it is tight to the glass. The biggest benefit would be on the front doors and windshield which are clearer.

DW's brother winters in Mesa, in a park model trailer that sits empty all summer. In the geezer park he is in, when the people leave, they put a reflecting cover on the outside of the windows, as it works much, much, better because it reflects the solar energy, and it doesn't even get as hot as the paint on the trailer, per him.

We live in the northland, and stay away, for the most part, from really hot weather. We were in Zion for a week at 99*, though. Our biggest issue was how hot it was in the front seats when driving because of the very large door windows in our Chevy, plus the van got very hot in the front when in the sun, regardless of where we were. Very early on we added an accordion style reflecting shade on the windshield for when we were parked, and it works very well. A few years ago, we had the door windows tinted with all state legal 3M Crystalline window tint, which is very effective blocker of solar heat (but you do pay for very good performance compared to other tints). It does not get nearly as hot as other tints I have seen, so has to be reflecting most of the heat. It made a big difference in the comfort and heat in the front of the van.

Personally, if I were trying to get the solar heat gain from windows reduced as far as practical, I would tint all the windows with Crystalline film, even the tinted windows. It would likely be as effective as the mylar, or close to it, and you still have room for an insulating shade for cooler weather or insulating, and you don't have to take it on and off. The largest eyebrow that you could reasonably put on the windshield would also help, especially when driving, and a reflecting solar accordion shade the windshield when parked.

It might be useful to go to a tint shop on a hot sunny day. The should be able to give you a piece of the Crystalline that you could hold up to various windows to see how much you would actually improve. It will work a small amount better when tight to the glass, but holding up isn't too bad. The shop would probably just squeegy on section for you to test. You should be able easily feel the difference in solar heat on you hand.

I would have to look it up, but the company that made our solar shades for the house will send you samples of their materials, so you can test them also. They were the highest solar reflectance I could find at the time. IIRC, it comes in a copper or grey color that you can see through from the inside.

I would be very interested to hear how the Crystalline compared to good mylar shade material like we have. It is one test that we have not been able to run.

[wincrasher]

For the hot months, the best thing you can do is get the external window covers. Keeping the sun off the glass in the first place is a tremendous improvement. Eurocampers.com carries very nice windshield & cab covers for Promaster & Sprinter.

I don't think the exterior color matters much as far as heating the interior goes. People have measured both the surface and interior temps and the effect is negligable inside, even though the skin temps vary. It's still a large metal box, and there really isn't a way of getting around that no matter how much insulation you install.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I don't think the exterior color matters much as far as heating the interior goes. People have measured both the surface and interior temps and the effect is negligable inside, even though the skin temps vary.

I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect, on both thermodynamic and empirical bases.

https://phys.org/news/2011-10-silver...rs-cooler.html

The researchers had two cars in the sun for an hour, one black and the other silver, parked facing south, in Sacramento, California. The silver Honda Civic (shell SR 0.57) had a cabin air temperature of about 5-6°C (9-11°F) lower than an identical black car.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

For the hot months, the best thing you can do is get the external window covers. Keeping the sun off the glass in the first place is a tremendous improvement. Eurocampers.com carries very nice windshield & cab covers for Promaster & Sprinter.

I don't think the exterior color matters much as far as heating the interior goes. People have measured both the surface and interior temps and the effect is negligable inside, even though the skin temps vary. It's still a large metal box, and there really isn't a way of getting around that no matter how much insulation you install.

Agree with external window covers, anything to block IR from windows or sheet metal is the best line of defense for IR exposure heating. Window covers, double tropical roof or solar panels will help.

In regards to the external color I agree with Pete comment. In our universe color matters a lot. Dark colors will absorb IR much more than pure white.

[booster]

The color doesn't matter thing went around maybe a decade ago, with a number of people jumping all over anyone who said color mattered. They appeared all over the place on the forums and blogs.

Even when confronted with the actual solar heat and IR absorption/reflection test data, they would continue to attack and ridicule people. It was very bizarre to me.

IIRC, the solar gain was while least, silver next, and then parading down to the browns and blacks on the most solar gain end, based on the test data.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by booster

The color doesn't matter thing went around maybe a decade ago, with a number of people jumping all over anyone who said color mattered. They appeared all over the place on the forums and blogs.

Even when confronted with the actual solar heat and IR absorption/reflection test data, they would continue to attack and ridicule people. It was very bizarre to me.

IIRC, the solar gain was while least, silver next, and then parading down to the browns and blacks on the most solar gain end, based on the test data.

That test data related to the skin of the vehicle. Not the heat transferred to the interior of the vehicle. The differences are negligible inside, and pale compared to the contribution of the glass area.

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

That test data related to the skin of the vehicle. Not the heat transferred to the interior of the vehicle. The differences are negligible inside, and pale compared to the contribution of the glass area.

Data for that would be nice to see. Heat transfer would indicate that the input heat would be higher (less reflected) to heat the surface, then the insulation value of the wall will determine the temp difference between the internal and external wall sides, and that temp difference will be nearly the same for hotter or cooler outside surface, so the inside also goes up about the same amount.


Just take a black coffee mug and set it outside upside down, so sealed up, and compare it to a white one next to it, taking the inside air temps.



Totally agree on the glass area being a very large contributor, but a lot of folks use insulation them to help. All sources add up very quickly.



We painted our sand colored Roadtrek fiberglass roof down to the steel body with sparkle silver paint, and it made a very noticeable difference.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

The color doesn't matter thing went around maybe a decade ago, with a number of people jumping all over anyone who said color mattered. They appeared all over the place on the forums and blogs.

Even when confronted with the actual solar heat and IR absorption/reflection test data, they would continue to attack and ridicule people. It was very bizarre to me.

IIRC, the solar gain was while least, silver next, and then parading down to the browns and blacks on the most solar gain end, based on the test data.

I didn’t know that, for me it was just obvious. This discussion could venture to believing or knowing territory, believing doesn’t require data nor technical explanation but knowing does.