Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I like outsiders’ questions but, in this case, I am not sure it makes much sense. One advantage would be that a heavy cassette would not need to be removed, but, attaching, cleaning, and storing a macerator pump with hoses would be time consuming.

What struck me was that if it had a quick or auto connect fitting, the macerator would not need cleaning, just like they don't in our regular setups. If he had said gravity backup, yep, the cleanup would negate the benefit.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

What do you find wrong with the Revel?

I actually like the Revel and am psyched about what Winnebago is doing with the Revel and the new lithium Travatos too - kudos to them.

Obviously, the 4X4 configuration rocks. I like the rough an tumble materials used inside and the colors. The green might be hard to live with long term but I like it, and the gray interior is very nice. Like the diesel heat. The bed, while a tad on the smallish side, seems comfortable and the fact it raises up and down is cool.The ladder and rack system seems smart.

But there are a few important areas where the Revel doesn't quite work of us. In general it is simply too spartan. Winnebago's launch literature and videos talk about it being for EXTREME sports and outdoor adventurers - rock climbers and white water runners.

I could manage with the cassette toilet. The cooking situation is a turn off. One induction cooktop and no microwave. When we are on holiday or enjoying our weekends, cooking and enjoying good food is part of what we look forward to. Not impossible but it would be tough to make a nice pasta dinner with one burner.

The bench seat up front, as Davydd has just recently reinforced on this thread, seems good in theory but in practice is only good for one person and is REALLY uncomfortable. The bath, while very small is just on this side of usable.

And then I come to the garage. Again, I can see how for rock climbers with tons of gear or maybe a single mountain biker it would work great. But there is not enough room under the bed, when it is down, to keep more than one bike inside, so the bikes have to go outside. Where exactly, on a hitch bike rack? That's all fine and good but then all that space for us would just be wasted. No opportunity to lounge in that space or permanantly store things. I guess our big dog would love all that garage space but that would be a pretty extravagant use of super valuable indoor real estate.

I am a big mountain biker and we both love to hike and explore. We'd like to see a Revel 2.0 version that had a few more creative comforts and was more for outdoor adventure versus extreme adventure and sports.

But that's us, and i get who Winnebago is targeting with the Revel. The Revel, compared to tent camping is luxurious, so it's all in your perspective.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

What struck me was that if it had a quick or auto connect fitting, the macerator would not need cleaning, just like they don't in our regular setups. If he had said gravity backup, yep, the cleanup would negate the benefit.

Indeed, a quick disconnect would help a lot if the macerator could be sealed on both ends.

A potential solution would be to have a system which could dump in a dump station or a toilet. Installation would be more complex.
A system would have:
1. A black tank with a macerator dump.
2. A 5 gal. tank on wheels with a nozzle for toilet dumping. Similar to Smart tote but light enough for dumping in a toilet. SmartTote2

It is possible but am not sure if benefits would justify implementation and usage complexity.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think the "adventure" market is a big as many of us may think it is, and by practicality limitations in the build, the vans can't be very flexible in use. They have to be relatively basic, short wheel base, single rear wheel, 4wd or AWD, high clearance. Small but with room for stuff like bikes, climbing gear, etc. Plus they have to be within the budget of the most often younger, free spirit types.

I think this is where the major van builders are getting tripped up. The whole world is so focused on younger free spirit Millennials it's like the other cohorts don't exist.

It's clear the major van builders are targeting the older Boomer generation with their offerings that feel a little like a time warp living room from the 1970's. Vans designed primarily for RV park camping. That's a very social and fun lifestyle but my point is that's not the only lifestyle or camping approach folks are looking for.

I think targeting Millennials, with the exceptions of coders here in California, might NOT be profitable because most don't have the disposable income to buy a van that can easily cost six figures - so I concur, that market is probably not that large.

BUT this leaves a staggering number of Gen X'ers and younger Baby Boomer who would like a more fully equipped and comfortably furnished adventure/camper van. Thats the market I am talking about that no major is satisfying currently.

[teck13]

I also very much like the Revel's four season capability. I forgot the mention that. Insulated walls, dual pane windows, and heated drainage and fresh water tank.

[MsNomer]

We are mid-70's, yet we come close to the lifestyle the Revel is aimed at--and yes, they got the cooking all wrong. When you've been out all day doing strenuous stuff--hiking, biking, whatever--you want food with the least amount of hassle. This is when the microwave really shines. We use ours for nearly every meal.

[avanti]

Remind me again what is being gained with cassette rather than black tank + macerator.
Does anybody really ever have trouble finding a dump station when needed? Note also that it is easy to extend a macerator with a length of garden hose to dump at arbitrary distances. Not that I have ever found this necessary.

As for seals and odor: Although I totally believe George when he reports that his does not smell, it is nonetheless true that plumbed toilets are inherently gas-tight and cassettes are not. As a statistical statement, they have GOT to be more problematic in this regard, especially as they get older. If this were not true, why would they all come with optional vent fans?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by teck13

I actually like the Revel and am psyched about what Winnebago is doing with the Revel and the new lithium Travatos too - kudos to them.

Obviously, the 4X4 configuration rocks. I like the rough an tumble materials used inside and the colors. The green might be hard to live with long term but I like it, and the gray interior is very nice. Like the diesel heat. The bed, while a tad on the smallish side, seems comfortable and the fact it raises up and down is cool.The ladder and rack system seems smart.

But there are a few important areas where the Revel doesn't quite work of us. In general it is simply too spartan. Winnebago's launch literature and videos talk about it being for EXTREME sports and outdoor adventurers - rock climbers and white water runners.

I could manage with the cassette toilet. The cooking situation is a turn off. One induction cooktop and no microwave. When we are on holiday or enjoying our weekends, cooking and enjoying good food is part of what we look forward to. Not impossible but it would be tough to make a nice pasta dinner with one burner.

The bench seat up front, as Davydd has just recently reinforced on this thread, seems good in theory but in practice is only good for one person and is REALLY uncomfortable. The bath, while very small is just on this side of usable.

And then I come to the garage. Again, I can see how for rock climbers with tons of gear or maybe a single mountain biker it would work great. But there is not enough room under the bed, when it is down, to keep more than one bike inside, so the bikes have to go outside. Where exactly, on a hitch bike rack? That's all fine and good but then all that space for us would just be wasted. No opportunity to lounge in that space or permanantly store things. I guess our big dog would love all that garage space but that would be a pretty extravagant use of super valuable indoor real estate.

I am a big mountain biker and we both love to hike and explore. We'd like to see a Revel 2.0 version that had a few more creative comforts and was more for outdoor adventure versus extreme adventure and sports.

But that's us, and i get who Winnebago is targeting with the Revel. The Revel, compared to tent camping is luxurious, so it's all in your perspective.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the Revel. According to some accounts they are selling like hot cakes now but I wonder if people buying them will regret down the line for their limitations. Seriously? Emptying out a bathroom with shelving and storage just to pee? I don't think most once they establish how they will tour will like it. It is way too expensive for the young surfer/biker/climber/hiker/kayaker market that might have done a DIY basic van.

I question too the market for a semi finished basic van by major converters. They would be quickly criticized by lack of amenities because there aren't many people that have the time, inclinations, and skills to finish a van. They would probably cost too much for that crowd anyway. I think anyone undertaking a DIY would also like the freedom of a clean slate design.

[BBQ]

.

Sad to say, there are lots of "bad" people in this World.
Call me a pessimist; I can envision people dumping their cassette in the bush where they think it would not bother people (or the environment). Desperate situations call for desperate moves, and there will be lots of self-righteous desperate situations.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

We are mid-70's, yet we come close to the lifestyle the Revel is aimed at--and yes, they got the cooking all wrong. When you've been out all day doing strenuous stuff--hiking, biking, whatever--you want food with the least amount of hassle. This is when the microwave really shines. We use ours for nearly every meal.

It seems that microwaves are one of those binary things. People either use them all the time or take them out to free up more space. I'd prefer a microwave but could live without one if there were two burners.

If good outdoor cooking is handy then what's inside to cook is less important but if the weather is foul or one is in a spot with no outside cooking available/allowed then the Revel set-up, frankly, blows. I like the Revel enough I even tried to figure out how to add a microwave and/or a second burner (and enough storage to at least have somewhere to secure some larger cast iron cookware). It's just not easily or affordably feasible.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the Revel. According to some accounts they are selling like hot cakes now but I wonder if people buying them will regret down the line for their limitations. Seriously? Emptying out a bathroom with shelving and storage just to pee? I don't think most once they establish how they will tour will like it. It is way too expensive for the young surfer/biker/climber/hiker/kayaker market that might have done a DIY basic van.

I question too the market for a semi finished basic van by major converters. They would be quickly criticized by lack of amenities because there aren't many people that have the time, inclinations, and skills to finish a van. They would probably cost too much for that crowd anyway. I think anyone undertaking a DIY would also like the freedom of a clean slate design.

As I posted, if somebody is coming from tent camping then they will probably love their Revel. But for others, who are not into Extreme Sports but looking for adventure in the back country, I am with you in that they are likely to find the Revel limiting and hard/expensive to retrofit. You can't run the optional air conditioning unless you are plugged in or carry a stand alone generator. So where to you put the generator while moving? In the garage where it's stinky and not healthy, on the roof rack which would be very inconvenient, or in a box slid into the hitch - thereby reducing the advantages of a short van. And how does one secure the generator from walking away while it is in use and you are away from the van? Manageable perhaps but a lot of inconvenient "extra" steps.

Similar issues arise with cooking more than one pot meals or, as you noted, converting the bath storage for bathroom use. Even seating to hang out is limited to only three adults.

It feels to me like it would be fun, useful, and appropriate for a single person but even for a couple it starts to demand too many compromises - compromises that at least for us are not the ones we want to make.

I'm in your camp re a minimally finished basic van. The majors are not going to make any money on those so it is just not going to happen anytime soon when there is such a strong market for fully featured vans with much larger margins.

[GeorgeRa]

Cassette discussion can be, and often is, a very polarizing subject as stated in this review

http://www.truckcamperadventure.com/...nd-a-few-tips/.

For anyone interested in this subject for personal needs I would suggest to read it, I agree with this review, as it resonates well with my own experience. But, his points are made over and over and will likely not be taken by the black tank favoring community.

Cassettes toilets are slowly gaining market share in NA and this trend will likely continue. Small trailers, vans, or truck campers will use them most. Any design is a balance of tradeoffs to achieve desire goals. A question which one is better, cassette or black tank is just like asking - which vehicle is better: Ford 350 or Corvette, it depends on your needs.

We designed our conversion from scratch based on almost 40 years of camping experience from tents, Westfalias, through larger RVs.

This was the set of driving objectives:
20’ length max, 360 views, spacious, 54”x76” sofa bed, all utilities except inside shower, factory road clearance – nothing below rocker panels.

A lot of tradeoffs during the design but the first ones to go were an LPG tank and a black tank. We could have designed a vacuum waste system, or incinerator waste system, or even a Borg like beds with direct plumbing but we chose the best option for us from the reasonable dumping options.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Sad to say, there are lots of "bad" people in this World.
Call me a pessimist; I can envision people dumping their cassette in the bush where they think it would not bother people (or the environment). Desperate situations call for desperate moves, and there will be lots of desperate situations.

I would say there are likely no more than those that do the same with their regular black tanks...

[gregmchugh]

One advantage of the cassette is for a true 4 season vehicle it is located in the heated area of the vehicle and handles freezing temps with no issues.

[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by Scottbaldassari

Agreed.

I have a Travato G and take it in a lot of places others would not dare. I Added Sumo Springs, larger off road tires, and removed the genny

Would you mind telling me a bit about the tires you chose? How large? Did you have to modify the wheel wells? What do Sumo springs get you? Was that necessary for the tires?

The ProMaster is a really interesting platform for an RV, but hadn’t considered its off-roading could be enhanced.



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[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by teck13

Your information on Haul Road is most helpful, that is one of my questions - would a front wheel drive Promaster do OK in Alaska. And could it get to the trailhead at Gooseberry Mesa in UT?

In Alaska in general, a ProMaster will do fine. All of the roads south of the arctic circle you will do fine— sometimes they are gravel, usually while under construction, so be aware of what you have underneath your rig (but that’s not a ProMaster problem.)

Alaska is generally pretty tough on commercial RVs. So it’s a fair bet something might break or take damage.

My haul road experience, north of the arctic circle is limited to my time there awhile back. I’m assuming the road is better now, rather than worse. It was gravel the whole way with few stops, and only cold foot had gas at that time. The promaster’s tank is a bit small to my liking so I would take extra gas. A second spare is always recommended for that road.

As for the traction, I had very limited periods where I needed 4WD and I believe they can be overcome with a ProMaster using more care and slower speed than when I went before.

I’m planning to visit prudehoe bay in a ProMaster in the summer of 2019, or maybe even this summer, depending on how things go.



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[teck13]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

In Alaska in general, a ProMaster will do fine. Call of the roads south of the arctic circle you will do fine— sometimes they are gravel, usually while under construction, so be aware of what you have underneath your rig (but that’s not a ProMaster problem.)

Alaska is generally pretty tough on commercial RVs. So it’s a fair bet something might break or take damage.

My haul road experience, north of the arctic circle is limited to my time there awhile back. I’m assuming the road is better now, rather than worse. It was gravel the whole way with few stops, and only cold foot had gas at that time. The promaster’s tank is a bit small to my liking so I would take extra gas. A second spare is always recommended for that road.

As for the traction, I had very limited periods where I needed 4WD and I believe they can be overcome with a ProMaster using more care and slower speed than when I went before.

I’m planning to visit prudehoe bay in a ProMaster in the summer of 2019, or maybe even this summer, depending on how things go.



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Really great information. Thanks for sharing with all of us. Many of the commercially available Promaster vans (e.g. Travato) don't even have one spare so that would be part of any Alaska challenge - adding one or two spares via the hitch and/or a roof rack.

[JakeyLee]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

One advantage of the cassette is for a true 4 season vehicle it is located in the heated area of the vehicle and handles freezing temps with no issues.

That's a great point that I hadn't really given much thought... frozen poop is no laughing matter.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by JakeyLee

That's a great point that I hadn't really given much thought... frozen poop is no laughing matter.

I solved that problem using our Espar glycol loop as part of my four season conversion. I do admit, though, that sewage is the only freeze issue, then the cassette solution is a lot simpler.

[gerrym51]

a true cassette system has it's own flushing liquid supply. in winter instead of water fill with rv antifreeze.