Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[Phoebe3]

Can't wait to see what you come up with!

We found 22' was the sweet spot between too cramped and too hard to park at home. Would be delighted to see a usable 20' van!

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

... That's why I have named my effort, Mies, for the architect Mies Van der Rohe, who is famous for the quotation "Less is more."...

Will it have a Barcelona theme?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I've gone from 21'-11" to 22'-9" to 24'-1" in three successive Sprinter vans. They were all over a 20' deep parking stall necessitating some creative parking that I have mostly solved. The most restrictive limit was pulling into a strip center with a curb in the front. Tiny lot parking. Those are the places with coffee shops mostly and my wife does not pass up a Starbucks or Caribou if she can help it. The short Sprinter at 19'-5" would fit in all those instances. It really is a minor thing because no matter what Class B I have, I can't park it at home anyway and now I own a 45' deep condo garage.

So it is really a challenge as an architect in my retirement. I don't like anything on the market today interior wise in a short van and just would like to try something different. And there is a big move to shorter vans. That's why I have named my effort, Mies, for the architect Mies Van der Rohe, who is famous for the quotation "Less is more." I hope to not sacrifice much going 5' shorter than the capability I currently have. Also, I want to design a van that has to not to be configured for daytime and night time use and still give two people living options. My preliminary design actually has a bigger bathroom and everything I currently have in the kitchen. I don't want to go under 800ah of lithium ion batteries and second alternator setup. Solar is a token consideration that in my preliminary design has not one but three skylights occupying roof territory. I've modeled all this in 3D CAD. I guess I can only say, stay tuned, because I want to build on the upcoming generation of Sprinters. That may take a while.

I will give you a hint. I have no idea why Europeans design all their short vans for two people with a third and forth seat that is uncomfortable even for a short ride. It takes up valuable interior real estate for little gain.

I always assumed the European seat layout was to accommodate two adults and two kids with short beds set up in the front for the kids. The table with two adults in the swivel seats and two kids in the bench seats.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I have no idea why Europeans design all their short vans for two people with a third and forth seat that is uncomfortable even for a short ride. It takes up valuable interior real estate for little gain.

Interesting post Davydd. I have spoken with ARV and I really like their commitment to quality and innovative solutions that are well thought out and from what I have read, just work. They also generally look awesome. But Mike shared with me that what I am trying to do would start around a quarter of a million dollars. That's not a typo fair readers. That's one hell of a lot of cheese. I am not saying their vans aren't worth that much, it's just for me it's past the point of diminishing returns.

Outside vans in Oregon seems to occupy a similar price strata. Like other readers, I will be interested and following what you come up with.

Per my original post for this thread, we seem to agree there is a gap in the marketplace for short (around 20 feet), soft-road capable vans with a comfortable and attractively designed interior. If the Revel and Travato had a love child we'd be close on the affordable end. If Roadtrek ditched the grandma interiors and hit head on some design and quality issues they could have an offering that would appeal to those looking for adventure AND comfort. ARV and Outside van are pushing the envelope and bless them for that. Sportsmobile might be able to jump in here?

But as I have been whining about, where the hell is the $100K to $150K van that, per your quoted comment, maximizes the experience for two active people looking to go off the beaten path and for adventure? Everything is either too expensive, has very limited off-road capability, is old fashioned inside (yes I know there must be somebody ponying up big bucks still for those styles or they'd be gone already), or adventure ready but lacking basic comforts and living ability beyond a couple days. Anybody what to start a business? There's a huge unmeet hole. Somebody is going to do it.

[AlexJ]

[QUOTE=teck13;69840]Interesting post Davydd. I have spoken with ARV and I really like their commitment to quality and innovative solutions that are well thought out and from what I have read, just work. They also generally look awesome. But Mike shared with me that what I am trying to do would start around a quarter of a million dollars. That's not a typo fair readers. That's one hell of a lot of cheese. I am not saying their vans aren't worth that much, it's just for me it's past the point of diminishing returns.

Outside vans in Oregon seems to occupy a similar price strata. Like other readers, I will be interested and following what you come up with.

Per my original post for this thread, we seem to agree there is a gap in the marketplace for short (around 20 feet), soft-road capable vans with a comfortable and attractively designed interior. If the Revel and Travato had a love child we'd be close on the affordable end. If Roadtrek ditched the grandma interiors and hit head on some design and quality issues they could have an offering that would appeal to those looking for adventure AND comfort. ARV and Outside van are pushing the envelope and bless them for that. Sportsmobile might be able to jump in here?

But as I have been whining about, where the hell is the $100K to $150K van that, per your quoted comment, maximizes the experience for two active people looking to go off the beaten path and for adventure? Everything is either too expensive, has very limited off-road capability, is old fashioned inside (yes I know there must be somebody ponying up big bucks still for those styles or they'd be gone already), or adventure ready but lacking basic comforts and living ability beyond a couple days. Anybody what to start a business? There's a huge unmeet hole. Somebody is going to do it.[/QUOTE

XL Flex 4x4 22’9”. A little wait to get but still shorter than waiting for something else to come along.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I always assumed the European seat layout was to accommodate two adults and two kids with short beds set up in the front for the kids. The table with two adults in the swivel seats and two kids in the bench seats.

That is a pretty good assumption. They are also probably suited to weekender holidays. However, I attend many Class B rallies and social gatherings and meet people around the country as well as many on this forum and Facebook groups and it seems overwhelmingly single or couples mostly older that have Class Bs in North America. Also, very few people "entertain" inside their vans to require two additional seats. Those two extra usually cramped upright uncomfortable seats probably stifle short Class B designs.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by teck13

Interesting post Davydd. I have spoken with ARV and I really like their commitment to quality and innovative solutions that are well thought out and from what I have read, just work. They also generally look awesome. But Mike shared with me that what I am trying to do would start around a quarter of a million dollars. That's not a typo fair readers. That's one hell of a lot of cheese. I am not saying their vans aren't worth that much, it's just for me it's past the point of diminishing returns.

Outside vans in Oregon seems to occupy a similar price strata. Like other readers, I will be interested and following what you come up with.

Per my original post for this thread, we seem to agree there is a gap in the marketplace for short (around 20 feet), soft-road capable vans with a comfortable and attractively designed interior. If the Revel and Travato had a love child we'd be close on the affordable end. If Roadtrek ditched the grandma interiors and hit head on some design and quality issues they could have an offering that would appeal to those looking for adventure AND comfort. ARV and Outside van are pushing the envelope and bless them for that. Sportsmobile might be able to jump in here?

But as I have been whining about, where the hell is the $100K to $150K van that, per your quoted comment, maximizes the experience for two active people looking to go off the beaten path and for adventure? Everything is either too expensive, has very limited off-road capability, is old fashioned inside (yes I know there must be somebody ponying up big bucks still for those styles or they'd be gone already), or adventure ready but lacking basic comforts and living ability beyond a couple days. Anybody what to start a business? There's a huge unmeet hole. Somebody is going to do it.

A few years back we were looking for a spacious (not a cage like), 360 view, maximum 20’ long, good road clearance (no skirts), modern camper van. Our cash out limit was set so went for a hunt. Visited Outside Van, Van Specialties, Roadtrek, Airstream, and a few online. Safari Condo was the only choice for us but purchasing to Oregon was difficult so we took the DIY route.

We spent a few months every year in EU and it was very frustrating to see the product there not available here. I guess there are different markets hence different products. EU camper vans are tuned for young families while her for retires so we have a few companies here just milking the max. Much higher sales in EU allow companies for better investment in engineering and manufacturing.

I was hoping for the Hymer Company to come with their EU product but except their trailer the leverage from Roadtrek. I very much doubt if any accompany will step up providing a van camper for, to be developed for young family market in NA; short wheel base, better road clearance, and just base equipment.

So, good luck, we are very happy with our Voilà, but I had time to do it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

We spent a few months every year in EU

Ah, so THAT's where you acquired this preternatural tolerance for cassette toilets.

[jaak1993]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I've gone from 21'-11" to 22'-9" to 24'-1" in three successive Sprinter vans. They were all over a 20' deep parking stall necessitating some creative parking that I have mostly solved. The most restrictive limit was pulling into a strip center with a curb in the front. Tiny lot parking. Those are the places with coffee shops mostly and my wife does not pass up a Starbucks or Caribou if she can help it. The short Sprinter at 19'-5" would fit in all those instances. It really is a minor thing because no matter what Class B I have, I can't park it at home anyway and now I own a 45' deep condo garage.

So it is really a challenge as an architect in my retirement. I don't like anything on the market today interior wise in a short van and just would like to try something different. And there is a big move to shorter vans. That's why I have named my effort, Mies, for the architect Mies Van der Rohe, who is famous for the quotation "Less is more." I hope to not sacrifice much going 5' shorter than the capability I currently have. Also, I want to design a van that has to not to be configured for daytime and night time use and still give two people living options. My preliminary design actually has a bigger bathroom and everything I currently have in the kitchen. I don't want to go under 800ah of lithium ion batteries and second alternator setup. Solar is a token consideration that in my preliminary design has not one but three skylights occupying roof territory. I've modeled all this in 3D CAD. I guess I can only say, stay tuned, because I want to build on the upcoming generation of Sprinters. That may take a while.

I will give you a hint. I have no idea why Europeans design all their short vans for two people with a third and forth seat that is uncomfortable even for a short ride. It takes up valuable interior real estate for little gain.

Davydd: thank you for such thorough clarity. I'm really eager to see what you cause to be created.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

We spent a few months every year in EU and it was very frustrating to see the product there not available here. I guess there are different markets hence different products. EU camper vans are tuned for young families while her for retires so we have a few companies here just milking the max. Much higher sales in EU allow companies for better investment in engineering and manufacturing.

You are emphasizing my POV with your well stated post. It's difficult to get exact figures but the 2016 Top Markets Recreational Transportation Report says this, "Europe is the second largest global RV market after the United States." I know the type and class of vehicles sold differ and that RV numbers include everything from travel trailers to Class A's but lets conservatively assume U.S. and Europe Class B sales are is the same ballpark.

So then, why does Europe have more choice in layouts, designs and platforms. I worked in the automotive industry so I know vehicle regulations are different in the U.S. but still most of this is poor (or none) R&D, lazy product development and design, and little or zero smart marketing.

The bottom line is why are the RV companies in Europe listening to consumers and offering different vans for different customers while the big U.S. companies continue to offer slightly refreshed stuff from the 1970's?

It'a a matter of being a leader and getting in front of prospective customers versus inertia and just slightly refining what the current customers keep buying. Younger customers, including younger Boomers, Gen X and Millennials, want a van tipped more for couples and adventure. Not interested in the zillionth of a millimeter cherry "wood" floor to ceiling paneling and cabinetry and low hanging big "plastic" running boards and steps. Please. Give us a little ground clearance so we can get up and down forest service roads or better still 4X4 options. Realize there are two emerging groups of prospects. Weekenders and vacationers and those living part or full-time in their vans. These two groups have very different needs and requirements. Just bazaar that with the exception of Winnebago, the majors don't seem to understand or acknowledge any of this.

Thanks of listening, my frustration and rambling of the day.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by teck13

... Anybody what to start a business? There's a huge unmeet hole. Somebody is going to do it.

"Somebody" who considers that market entry better run their numbers very carefully and honestly. I've been in business for myself for 12 years now, but I'm running an intentionally-simplified micro-operation. I know what my overhead looks like; I know my cash flow. I know just enough to have an idea what this business would look like financially, this hole-filling business of which you speak. Assuming that honest arm's length business is to be done (taxes paid, insurances including Worker's Comp in place, etc.), the capitalization required of such an initiative would be breathtaking.

The point being, there's a reason why it's so damned obvious but nobody has stepped up. There are far less risky and less expensive ways to make a good living.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

"Somebody" who considers that market entry better run their numbers very carefully and honestly. I've been in business for myself for 12 years now, but I'm running an intentionally-simplified micro-operation. I know what my overhead looks like; I know my cash flow. I know just enough to have an idea what this business would look like financially, this hole-filling business of which you speak. Assuming that honest arm's length business is to be done (taxes paid, insurances including Worker's Comp in place, etc.), the capitalization required of such an initiative would be breathtaking.

The point being, there's a reason why it's so damned obvious but nobody has stepped up. There are far less risky and less expensive ways to make a good living.

I agree with of all the points in the first paragraph. Absolutely.

I do have a different take on the second paragraph however. it implies there are sound BUSINESS reasons no one has stepped up to fill the gap in the market. I worked with GM in the mid to late 1990's and while a few there saw and worried about the gab in the market the incentive, compensation, will and courage just wasn't there to make the necessary changes. We all know what happened to GM and Chrysler - it's spelled B-A-I-L-O-U-T. Around the same period I was briefly involved with Blockbuster. They knew streaming was threat but that wasn't their entrenched business model. My point is, target audience needs/wants and technology change. I believe part of your point is that keeping up with that change is terrifyingly expensive and that I agree with completely. But the cost of not changing can be much higher and companies that don't adapt perish.

To offer a really specific example here. How hard would it be for Roadtrek to make a more adventure slanted/oriented Agile. These coaches are half "hand-built" anyway. Create a MB (Mountain Bike) Agile. It would have 4x4 complete with some off road wheels and tires, come standard with a bike and roof rack, interior would include light colored and modern looking paneling and cabinets but using the existing layout. Seats and sofa fabric would be a color that doesn't show dirt - same for the counter top color. Nuke the ridiculous wardrobe to open up the space a bit in the rear. Get rid of the magazine racks on the bathroom doors (when is the last time you even saw a printed magazine?) and slightly modify the doors to open just that extra inch the magazine racks currently take up during a shower.

Make 100 of them as a test. It would not be very disruptive or expensive to do this. Keep in mind the current wait for a Winnebago Revel is one year. The market IS there.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

I agree with of all the points in the first paragraph. Absolutely.

I do have a different take on the second paragraph however. it implies there are sound BUSINESS reasons no one has stepped up to fill the gap in the market. I worked with GM in the mid to late 1990's and while a few there saw and worried about the gab in the market the incentive, compensation, will and courage just wasn't there to make the necessary changes. We all know what happened to GM and Chrysler - it's spelled B-A-I-L-O-U-T. Around the same period I was briefly involved with Blockbuster. They knew streaming was threat but that wasn't their entrenched business model. My point is, target audience needs/wants and technology change. I believe part of your point is that keeping up with that change is terrifyingly expensive and that I agree with completely. But the cost of not changing can be much higher and companies that don't adapt perish.

To offer a really specific example here. How hard would it be for Roadtrek to make a more adventure slanted/oriented Agile. These coaches are half "hand-built" anyway. Create a MB (Mountain Bike) Agile. It would have 4x4 complete with some off road wheels and tires, come standard with a bike and roof rack, interior would include light colored and modern looking paneling and cabinets but using the existing layout. Seats and sofa fabric would be a color that doesn't show dirt - same for the counter top color. Nuke the ridiculous wardrobe to open up the space a bit in the rear. Get rid of the magazine racks on the bathroom doors (when is the last time you even saw a printed magazine?) and slightly modify the doors to open just that extra inch the magazine racks currently take up during a shower.

Make 100 of them as a test. It would not be very disruptive or expensive to do this. Keep in mind the current wait for a Winnebago Revel is one year. The market IS there.

What do you find wrong with the Revel?

[booster]

I don't think the "adventure" market is a big as many of us may think it is, and by practicality limitations in the build, the vans can't be very flexible in use. They have to be relatively basic, short wheel base, single rear wheel, 4wd or AWD, high clearance. Small but with room for stuff like bikes, climbing gear, etc. Plus they have to be within the budget of the most often younger, free spirit types.

We have stopped to watch and chat with some of the "day climbers" in some of the climbing hotspots, who mostly had very basic DIY, water jug, mattress, maybe porta-potti, vans. Almost all wished they could spend more for a nicer unit, but had limited funds do to doing more adventuring than working, by choice.

I do think that simpler, lower cost, but relatively completely equipped vans will do well, especially with the first time buyer market.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think the "adventure" market is a big as many of us may think it is, and by practicality limitations in the build, the vans can't be very flexible in use. They have to be relatively basic, short wheel base, single rear wheel, 4wd or AWD, high clearance. Small but with room for stuff like bikes, climbing gear, etc. Plus they have to be within the budget of the most often younger, free spirit types.

We have stopped to watch and chat with some of the "day climbers" in some of the climbing hotspots, who mostly had very basic DIY, water jug, mattress, maybe porta-potti, vans. Almost all wished they could spend more for a nicer unit, but had limited funds do to doing more adventuring than working, by choice.

I do think that simpler, lower cost, but relatively completely equipped vans will do well, especially with the first time buyer market.

Agree.

My theory is that the upfitters should offer a "roughed out" b-van, with windows, plumbing, heat, ceiling fan and not much else. The hardest part of a DIY project is installing a good bathroom. Such a van could be used immediately, with sleeping bags on the floor, and incrementally built-out from there.

Such a product would be trivial to add to an existing product line, and I bet it would be incredibly popular.

[GeorgeRa]

After finishing DIY conversion, I can look back and from my own experience state that the most difficult and critical part of conversion is completing the design ahead of cutting metal or ordering appliances or parts. Tanks, batteries, galley, bath/toilet placements, windows, cabinetry, day and night time living spaces, appliances, dining, sleeping arrangement are all intertwined in the final design. Starting with a bathroom and design from there is asking for a likely failure.

The bottom of my van is FULL with 12+4 gal. fresh/hot water, 14-gal grey water tanks. A black tank could go under but fresh would need to go up. All these questions need to be answered upfront. 20’ van is big on a paper but small to fit appliances or tanks or galley etc.

I wouldn’t find designing and building a gravity or macerator dump bathroom any more difficult than a galley or hydronic heating.

Back to lack of EU style family camper vans in NA, this market vanished from here 20 years ago, it would need to be nurtured to rebirth, but I don’t see Hymer or Winnebago are gutsy enough to do it while mom and pop shops are busy milking.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by avanti

Agree.

My theory is that the upfitters should offer a "roughed out" b-van, with windows, plumbing, heat, ceiling fan and not much else. The hardest part of a DIY project is installing a good bathroom. Such a van could be used immediately, with sleeping bags on the floor, and incrementally built-out from there.

Such a product would be trivial to add to an existing product line, and I bet it would be incredibly popular.

And insulation. Not having insulation would be a deal breaker for us. If a product like that was available, I'd be very tempted and probably would have bought one instead of the Trend since we could have found away to squeeze in enough sleeping spots for the family.

Right now our family of 5 is doing fine with a 4Runner and Trend. When our oldest starts driving, we'll probably get another vehicle and it'll be a cargo van or a partially upfitted van if a company not named Roadtrek or Hymer starts selling them.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Ah, so THAT's where you acquired this preternatural tolerance for cassette toilets.

I am not sure I would call it preternatural tolerance, just a tolerance to an optimized camping van for a few days of camping in a sub 20’ long skirt-less camper van.

I don’t like dumping our waste by any dumping style and had them all except mixed black with grey which has its advantages and disadvantages.
Would I have a cassette toilet in an A Class, definitely not I would have a 150 gal. black tank. But, I don’t want an A class RV.

For OUR camping life our van is almost perfect, did I mention OUR camping life, yes, I did.

[booster]

A non RV type friend was wondering about dumping and how bad it was the other day, and I explained the standard gravity setup, the now common macerator, and cassettes. I also mentioned the combination systems like ours that have a macerator and backup gravity dump.

His new eyes, looking for outside, came up with what I thought was a really interesting question. His asked that if it is a good and practical idea to have an easy to use macerator setup but also have a gravity dump in case of failure, why wouldn't it be just as good an idea to have a macerator that would pump out a cassette toilet for dumps at a dump station, but that would also allow you to use the cassette as a cassette when no dump station was available. It sure looked to be a good idea for those that want the ability to toilet dump if needed, but don't like hauling the cassette all the time and even at the dump stations.

Seems pretty simple to do, but I wonder why it never has been done, that I know of anyway.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

A non RV type friend was wondering about dumping and how bad it was the other day, and I explained the standard gravity setup, the now common macerator, and cassettes. I also mentioned the combination systems like ours that have a macerator and backup gravity dump.

His new eyes, looking for outside, came up with what I thought was a really interesting question. His asked that if it is a good and practical idea to have an easy to use macerator setup but also have a gravity dump in case of failure, why wouldn't it be just as good an idea to have a macerator that would pump out a cassette toilet for dumps at a dump station, but that would also allow you to use the cassette as a cassette when no dump station was available. It sure looked to be a good idea for those that want the ability to toilet dump if needed, but don't like hauling the cassette all the time and even at the dump stations.

Seems pretty simple to do, but I wonder why it never has been done, that I know of anyway.

I like outsiders’ questions but, in this case, I am not sure it makes much sense. One advantage would be that a heavy cassette would not need to be removed, but, attaching, cleaning, and storing a macerator pump with hoses would be time consuming.