Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[BBQ]

.

If you want to go off paved road, there are certain qualities you must have:

short wheelbase
high clearance

There is no point in having a long wheelbase 4x4 for off paved road use because you might get high-centered.

If you go for the short wheelbase, the interior space will be small. There are no two ways about it.



Life is a compromise.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

Last weekend my wife and I (plus our big white dog) returned to a large dealer near Sacramento, CA. It was interesting and illuminating to compare side by side the Hymer Active, the Travato 59K and Roadtrek Agile. The Roadtrek Agile, rationally and on paper, has all the goods. But inside it feels cramped, and as I experienced previously, terribly old fashioned. It costs significantly more than the other two vans but does not seem to be of any higher quality. The paneling and cabinets look and feel cheap. I had never checked out the Roadtrek Agile windows and they are awful. Only a tiny section at the bottom opens and the mechanism is super cheap. In addition, the design only allows the tiny bottom section to open an inch or two – not much cross breeze going to happen with those windows. Super cheap feeling mechanism that was jammed already on one window in the brand-new coach. You can just tell those cheesy knobs and mechanisms won’t last. The cabin, being a Mercedes, is the nicest by a wide margin – about the only thing that seemed premium. The kitchen area is nice and offers the most counter space. The wardrobe at the rear, on the passenger side is just ridiculous. It should be an option. I guess a few full timers might want/need hanging clothes space but we for sure would gladly get rid of that big box for more seating space and just opening up the interior to not feel so claustrophobic. We haven’t been able to rent an Agile yet but the bath is probably the smallest I have seen in any B Class van. Really tight. I am over six feet tall and not skinny. Any shower would be sitting – not a preference. Inside latch on Bath just screams afterthought and poor quality. Tank capacities of Agile are impressive for a B. But for us, really the only plus of the Agile is that it can be ordered as a 4X4.
The Hymer Aktiv. Both of us liked the thick, real mattress on the rear bed and the bathroom looked large enough to be usable to her. Per my last checking out of the Aktiv, the quality was so-so. The more European color choices appealed to both of us. The dinette up front looks inviting, and while the bench is more comfortable than the Revel’s, I would not want to sit there for any extended periods of time – kind’a defeating the purpose of the up-front dinette seating/lounge area. Wife’s main concern was there was no place large enough for the dog to spread out and sleep which is not a design or quality issue in any way. So, we moved on to the Travato 59K.
After being in the Agile and Aktiv 1.0, stepping into the Travato 59K is like a blast of fresh air. Open and welcoming feeling. Not claustrophobic at all. Wife and I both love the rear bath layout. Actually, large enough to comfortably take a shower in. Kitchen is great too. Slightly larger fridge than the other two, similar two burner cooktop, but a larger sink with a gooseneck faucet. And microwave is convection, as is the one in the Agile. Twin beds seemed comfortable and I like that the head section can be raised slightly like a chaise lounge. Doesn’t come across as luxurious but seemed the best screwed together of the three coaches we were looking at. We’re not looking for luxurious, we want comfortable and durable. Ducted heating is a plus (Aktiv also had). Cabinets and latches felt robust. None of the three vans we were looking at are four seasons ready but the Travato 59K is probably the closest – especially if ordered with the optional dual pane windows and tank heaters.
Only a few negatives, some workable one perhaps not. The tank capacities are small and even smaller on the new 59KL. Also, there is no inverter included in the standard 59K – Really??? There would be work-arounds for charging our laptops and phones but we would have to fire up generator every time wanted to use the microwave, let alone the AC. The Lithium version is going to be a huge (like $20K) upcharge. But the biggest issue is there is no 4X4 option. Plus, the rear axle runs all the way across the back and is only a little more than six inches off the ground. That is not good clearance. Added on top of a slightly longer wheelbase (159” vs. 144”) than the Sprinter van this unit is not going to excel on forest service back roads.
So where do we want to make the huge compromises? Give up 4X4 and the ability to get to many of the trailheads we want to get but have a comfortable open van with a usable bathroom or keep looking at the overpriced Agile with 4X4 but be claustrophobic interior and struggle with the small bath? As many have recommended, we are trying to rent both which is really the only way to get the definitive information we need to decide.
Unfortunate nobody makes a van even close to what we, and I suspect many others, are looking for. Which is the point of my originally creating this thread discussion. Where the heck is the Revel 2.0 with some comfort and livability. Or a Travato with 4X4?
The exploration continues …

The Safari Condo Sprinter XL Flex 4x4 (22’8” on a 170 WB) may be your best option. An 18 month wait, but a beautiful, well thought out, quality build.

[teck13]

Thanks for the reminder. I had looked at the Flex online several months ago but rejected at the time due to the length. Perhaps I need to reconsider since an extra couple feet may be less of an "off-road penalty" than a low clearance 2-wheel drive van.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

If you want to go off paved road, there are certain qualities you must have:

short wheelbase
high clearance

There is no point in having a long wheelbase 4x4 for off paved road use because you might get high-centered.

If you go for the short wheelbase, the interior space will be small. There are no two ways about it.



Life is a compromise.

I agree with both of these thoughts. But why doesn't one of the major manufacturers make a short van that's more tipped for an active lifestyle. For example a Pleasure-Way Ascent with 4X4 and running boards instead of plastic low steps or the Fiat Ducato (i.e. Dodge Promaster) is going to be mane in Europe with 4x4 why not here? The Winnebago Revel is very cool but just too Spartan.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

Thanks for the reminder. I had looked at the Flex online several months ago but rejected at the time due to the length. Perhaps I need to reconsider since an extra couple feet may be less of an "off-road penalty" than a low clearance 2-wheel drive van.

Durango RV Rentals has one now to rent (not sure if it's 2 or 4WD).

[Technomadness]

If you liked the TRAVATO 59k, and the layout of the Activ but not the quality, check out the TRAVATO 59G— its a copy of the Hymer Grand Canyon (on which the activ is based too).

I wanted 4x4 originally but there were too many negatives to the sprinter for me... and I realized it’s not as much of s priority as I thought. I won’t be bouldering, and 2WD will work on the Haul Road to Proudhoe Bay— when I drove it before I had 4x4 but didn’t really need it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scottbaldassari]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

If you liked the TRAVATO 59k, and the layout of the Activ but not the quality, check out the TRAVATO 59G— its a copy of the Hymer Grand Canyon (on which the activ is based too).

I wanted 4x4 originally but there were too many negatives to the sprinter for me... and I realized it’s not as much of s priority as I thought. I won’t be bouldering, and 2WD will work on...

Agreed.
I have a Travato G and take it in a lot of places others would not dare. I Added Sumo Springs, larger off road tires, and removed the genny (that I never use), all for additional clearance . Front wheel drive does surprisingly well and the weight of the van helps immensely for traction on most reasonably "solid surfaces". It will sink in deep mud or loose sand.

I live in a lush wooded area, so tree limbs and brush scraping the van because of its size and height are usually stop me before traction (in which case 4wd makes no difference. If you're in the desert or wide open areas, it might be a different story. I don't see much snow either, but many with Travatos report excellent results with snow or AT Tires.

[InterBlog]

I agree with the compromise statements, and how. No one vehicle will do it all, unless you have over $400K to cough up for an Earth Roamer. And even those seem claustrophobic to me. The earlier interiors were very short on style, but they do seem to be improving now (I told them that they needed to).

Unless you are wealthier than all of us, identify your most dominant primary need, buy to satisfy that need, and then find workarounds for the rest.

For instance, my husband and I routinely drive back and forth from Houston to far eastern Canada. We had to buy based on the primary need for the vehicle to be optimized for long-haul freeway travel.

But then when we get to Canada, we have a lakefront property which was initially undeveloped. I actually had to spec a private road that was scaled to our Class B. I couldn't put in a crummy Forest-Service-style cheap cow path of a road that perhaps a Jeep could handle - I had to do it right. But that was OK because the numbers worked. It was cheaper for me to spec the road to the Class B than it would have been to spec our Class B to a crappy road.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by teck13

I agree with both of these thoughts. But why doesn't one of the major manufacturers make a short van that's more tipped for an active lifestyle. For example a Pleasure-Way Ascent with 4X4 and running boards instead of plastic low steps or the Fiat Ducato (i.e. Dodge Promaster) is going to be mane in Europe with 4x4 why not here? The Winnebago Revel is very cool but just too Spartan.

You can. I'm currently designing my on short Sprinter hoping Advanced RV can build it with more capability for touring than the Ascent, Agile or Revel. It has to be on a Sprinter platform and isn't cheap. Advanced RV has just recently gotten into the short Sprinter game. They produced a rather spartan van for a customer last year and they have a roll-out soon of two more capable touring vans for customers intending to full-time that I know of.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

...

...It was cheaper for me to spec the road to the Class B than it would have been to spec our Class B to a crappy road.

I like that.

[Mat Mobile]

I don't think 4x4 is necessary for MOST of your usage: "Where the heck is the 4X4 Class B van made to get to mountain bike trail heads and then allow two to be comfortable and recharge after a long ride. No rock crawling or serious off-roading but a van that can easily go down most fire roads and forest service roads. White Rim Trail capable in Utah or maybe exploring Alaska one day meaning it’s also four seasons."

Other than the White Rim Trail which seems to require 4x4, you can probably get by with a 2X4 with high clearance and a winch. That's the option I'm choosing.

That being said, did you check out Nomad Vanz?


BTW, I'm building my van for the same purpose as you (see links in signature).

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

If you liked the TRAVATO 59k, and the layout of the Activ but not the quality, check out the TRAVATO 59G— its a copy of the Hymer Grand Canyon (on which the activ is based too).

I wanted 4x4 originally but there were too many negatives to the sprinter for me... and I realized it’s not as much of s priority as I thought. I won’t be bouldering, and 2WD will work on the Haul Road to Proudhoe Bay— when I drove it before I had 4x4 but didn’t really need it.

Thanks for the thoughts. We have checked out the 59G but the bed is just too small for two tall, one larger (me), people. Your information on Haul Road is most helpful, that is one of my questions - would a front wheel drive Promaster do OK in Alaska. And could it get to the trailhead at Gooseberry Mesa in UT?

[teck13]

[QUOTE=Scottbaldassari;69721]Agreed.
I have a Travato G and take it in a lot of places others would not dare. I Added Sumo Springs, larger off road tires ... [QUOTE]

The SumoSprings seem mandatory - Winnebago should include them standard. I read somewhere else folks saying there is little room to add much larger tires - maybe just slightly wider. What size tires were you able to add and how has it worked out?

[Scottbaldassari]

Originally Posted by teck13

The SumoSprings seem mandatory - Winnebago should include them standard. I read somewhere else folks saying there is little room to add much larger tires - maybe just slightly wider. What size tires were you able to add and how has it worked out?

Yes, you can't add MUCH larger tires. BFGoodrich KO2 All Terrain 245's work without the mudflaps - Anything larger will require some body work, but everything helps with ground clearance when combined together. The Genny was near an 1", The Sumos added a bit, the tires a bit more.. but 2 more inches of additional clearance under the Van makes quite a difference. The rear "axle" is basically unmoveable, so that becomes the stopping the point.

[teck13]

Cool, 245's but what is the series? Are you using the stock wheels or aftermarket? And as a frame of reference what are the specs for the stock tires? Thanks.

[mlts22]

Originally Posted by teck13

I agree with both of these thoughts. But why doesn't one of the major manufacturers make a short van that's more tipped for an active lifestyle. For example a Pleasure-Way Ascent with 4X4 and running boards instead of plastic low steps or the Fiat Ducato (i.e. Dodge Promaster) is going to be mane in Europe with 4x4 why not here? The Winnebago Revel is very cool but just too Spartan.

I would probably consider a 144" Sprinter as something close to the ideal base for a 4x4 van. Alternatively, a QuadVan or Quigley Transit might be useful, but the cost of the 4x4 upfit makes the Transit cost as much as the Sprinter... and if you are comparing apples to apples, might at well buy the van with the factory option.

From there, I would probably go with a local upfitter. I plug Sportsmobile, for the sole reason that they are four miles from where I live. There are other places which are just as good, and if you have the dosh, ARV will make anything.

I personally am a fan of a Spartan interior, but the Revel is a tad extreme for even me. For flooring, I'd go with Loncoin rubber, since that stuff can handle extreme conditions, and you can get it in a color that doesn't look like an institutional freight elevator. For the cabinet finish, something woodgrain isn't bad, even if isn't extremely shiny. The countertops, I've found Corian a decent compromise.

Of course, insulation comes to mind. Some vans seem to have little to no insulation. Even a layer of Hushmat/Dynamat/Fatmat plastered on the inside of the walls is a lot better than nothing, and for a 4x4 needs insulation. I have read good things about Thinsulate, and it is a lot safer and easier to deal with compared to other insulation types (I would NEVER insulate with fiberglass, for example.)

The Revel is a good start. It just needs a few tweaks, just like anything new.

[Scottbaldassari]

OEM Tires are 225-75-16. These have been used on several PM 3500's:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes
I am running 225-75-16 (which are by their nature, slightly larger than the OEMs). I like them; it's a softer rubber, smoother ride, much better traction on gravel/grass etc, no notable noise to my ears.
Google info on OEM tires if you want to compare specs or "series" or whatever..

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by teck13

... And could it get to the trailhead at Gooseberry Mesa in UT?

Another possible workaround is renting a Jeep locally near your target destination. I've resolved to do that in a couple of locations, just for day trips.

For instance, West Texas is chock full of roads that look something like this, and worse. Even if I could get our van down them, I'm not sure that I would choose to do so. I might cough up the $190/day just to take a Jeep instead. Similar story with some areas in Nova Scotia.

[jaak1993]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You can. I'm currently designing my on short Sprinter hoping Advanced RV can build it with more capability for touring than the Ascent, Agile or Revel. It has to be on a Sprinter platform and isn't cheap. Advanced RV has just recently gotten into the short Sprinter game. They produced a rather spartan van for a customer last year and they have a roll-out soon of two more capable touring vans for customers intending to full-time that I know of.

Hey Davydd: I'm curious about your desire for a shorter van, what do you wish to achieve that your current van doesn't allow or makes difficult?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by jaak1993

Hey Davydd: I'm curious about your desire for a shorter van, what do you wish to achieve that your current van doesn't allow or makes difficult?

I've gone from 21'-11" to 22'-9" to 24'-1" in three successive Sprinter vans. They were all over a 20' deep parking stall necessitating some creative parking that I have mostly solved. The most restrictive limit was pulling into a strip center with a curb in the front. Tiny lot parking. Those are the places with coffee shops mostly and my wife does not pass up a Starbucks or Caribou if she can help it. The short Sprinter at 19'-5" would fit in all those instances. It really is a minor thing because no matter what Class B I have, I can't park it at home anyway and now I own a 45' deep condo garage.

So it is really a challenge as an architect in my retirement. I don't like anything on the market today interior wise in a short van and just would like to try something different. And there is a big move to shorter vans. That's why I have named my effort, Mies, for the architect Mies Van der Rohe, who is famous for the quotation "Less is more." I hope to not sacrifice much going 5' shorter than the capability I currently have. Also, I want to design a van that has to not to be configured for daytime and night time use and still give two people living options. My preliminary design actually has a bigger bathroom and everything I currently have in the kitchen. I don't want to go under 800ah of lithium ion batteries and second alternator setup. Solar is a token consideration that in my preliminary design has not one but three skylights occupying roof territory. I've modeled all this in 3D CAD. I guess I can only say, stay tuned, because I want to build on the upcoming generation of Sprinters. That may take a while.

I will give you a hint. I have no idea why Europeans design all their short vans for two people with a third and forth seat that is uncomfortable even for a short ride. It takes up valuable interior real estate for little gain.