Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

They manage to put in roughly 280-300,000 Semi Trucks per annum Gives you an idea how crowded it is when the US produced 269,000 Semis this year
Overall vehicle EU sales 17 million vs 17.6 million in the US
Difference is many European vehicles are sold Globally, not the case in the US
One reason you have the Europeans dominating Semi sales globally as they have a healthy EU market and their trucks can be found anywhere outside NA
Too add insult too injury they own most of the Asian and US heavy truck manufacturers

Ervin Hymer Group is doing well in EU market, broad portfolio, good centralized technology R&D, but their entry to NA is strange.

Since their entry to NA I question their B-class strategy, they could have leverage from their successful Van designs from EU, just like they do with their small trailer, and use Roadtrek for distribution. Instead they are relying on Roadtrek team for B-class design and manufacturing.

Time will tell how good their strategy was, but their Sunlight introduction via Camping World is not an example of a successful intro.

[teck13]

"Strange" is putting it euphemistically. Stakeholders (in our case end users/customers) hope acquisitions result in the best practices of both companies being leveraged and shinning through. Seems a little of this has happened with strong warrantees, power and electrical innovations/advancements and a tiny amount of new Hymer models for N.A. But, unfortunately much of Roadtrek's inertia seems to also be coming through as well such as questionable to very poor quality, focus on RV park and smooth road camping vs adventure use and extremely poor marketing and communications. We are all hoping they reset quickly and get it together.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Travelling high speed on German autobahns could change the perception of travel distances ....

Yeah, supposing you survive it. I was there for business some years ago, with my subcontractor beside me in the back seat of a client's car, and as our host was driving like a bat out of hell, my sub kept slapping me with his iPhone in order to draw my attention to his GPS app which was reading 126 mph. He didn't want to speak out loud lest he distract the mad driver from his essential task, so he just kept hitting me with his stupid phone. Never again...

[Rok]

Is there a "B" out there with a 20 gallon black tank? I would love to be able to dump half as often. We have a 10 gallon one in our Great West Legend SE, and even the 12 gallon one on the Pleasure Way would seem like a luxury.

Originally Posted by Mfturner

Haha, I didn't think about how that sounds, LOL.

Nah I was just thinking of how much longer I can stay in the woods with a 20 gallon black tank than the old pop up we rented with a five gallon cassette. I think it goes back to the discussion of how you camp, if you are always in a developed campground maybe capacity doesn't matter as much.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Rok

Is there a "B" out there with a 20 gallon black tank? I would love to be able to dump half as often. We have a 10 gallon one in our Great West Legend SE, and even the 12 gallon one on the Pleasure Way would seem like a luxury.

Advanced RV's come with 40 gal. fresh water tanks, 26 gal. grey and 18 gal. black. You also have to balance grey and fresh with black or you will be making more frequent stops. We have historically averaged about 13 days between dumps. It could probably be more but we take opportunities when they present themselves if tank capacities are at about 50% because we don't camp at many places that have dump stations. We also carry 3-4 gallons of fresh water in Jugs for making coffee and such.

[Rok]

On the Grass is Greener perspective, Davydd, I really envy your ability to actually afford to buy from Advanced. But you travel much more than we do. And I guess we COULD afford a quarter-mil+ for a "Class B", but we don't wanna.

All indications are that Mike at Advanced is doing things right when he builds a rig (I would love to hear you comment on that issue), and I think this points to why other companies don't seek the higher price point. In order to do it right, Mike HAS to charge a big price tag--one that has been too big for us.

I was shocked when we paid $107K for our GW Legend SE and found tons of half-assed workmanship and things like rusting galvanized screws where for a few pennies more stainless would clearly be better. At the time, just over 4 years ago, $107K was a LOT of money to us.

The entire industry is wrought with companies who make horrible quality products just because it is cost effective. I don't know of any RV Dealers who are yelped in at anything more than 3 1/2 stars. That's deplorable. Do you know of any other companies where quality seems to come first? I can't think of any, although the Airstream Travel Trailers do look nice and are priced quite a bit higher than their competitors. (We didn't like their Class B's, because while they looked a "bit" more higher end, their price was a "lot" more higher end.

I think it is due to the problems outlined very well in the YouTube video "Leighto's Law #47". Also it is due to, as others have mentioned, three things: money, money, and money.

I really admire Mike Nurendorfer (sp?) for being able to maintain the quality and integrity he does in a marketplace populated hugely by scammers and frauds.

By the way, Davydd, is your new rig's bathroom larger, smaller, or about the same in your new rig? I like the design that allows one to stand up for a shower and whatnot where other B's fail in their design.

Thanks in advance for any comments you (or others) make.

.....Rocky

Originally Posted by Davydd

My definition of grass is greener on the other side is drooling.

I've shown my van often to European RV tourist and they drool too.

[GeorgeRa]

Friend of mine just send me pictures of his Mercedes Camper imported from Germany to US in the early seventies. These were the days when importing a car was possible, so, we just need a lithium battery powered flux capacitor to bring a Hymer’s Grand Canyon here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9__CHZXlCE

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by Rok

Is there a "B" out there with a 20 gallon black tank? I would love to be able to dump half as often. We have a 10 gallon one in our Great West Legend SE, and even the 12 gallon one on the Pleasure Way would seem like a luxury.

AFIK, the Winnebago Paseo on the Ford Transit platform currently offers 18/21 black/gray capacity. In some parts of the country, you can find last year's model for under $80K.

[Davydd]

Rok,

Advanced RV's philosophy is they will build the best Class B with the best materials, systems and equipment found at the time and if something comes up better they will change over as soon as practical. And they don't cut corners to make it less expensive. Yes, it cost more, but they have satisfied customers and they treat them well with the life of the van. They don't have dealers to satisfy first before the customer. If possible they will satisfy the desires of the customer. That's how I got my articulating beds. They took it on as a challenge and then parlayed it for other customers. However, with their philosophy they will only have about 50 customers a year to capablely accomplish it. I know that is not for everyone. Cost, time and compromise take priorities and that is not the customers they seek.

I previously bought a Great West Van Legend because I felt it was the best available at the time. And that was from the original owner of the company, Martin Geurtz who himself was an innovator. Mike Neundorfer bought one as well right after mine. That's how I knew about Advanced RV because the general manager at GWVan was making me jealous because Mike was getting them to install a compressor refrigerator, and a diesel-fired glycol heating and hot water system I never heard of at the time, and a few other things. Then the company was sold and didn't last long.

Neundorfer was in the process of turning over his company and looking for a new venture. We were his first visitors in May, 2012 before he got his first van for conversion but they already had it designed in 3D Solidworks CAD. I was immediately taken to it because I progressed from a Pleasure-way Plateau to Great West Van Legend as Mike did so the basic design elements were to my liking. Still, I waited two years to pull the trigger on a new van in May, 2014.

[teck13]

I'd very much like to have a flux capacitor. And like you, I'd like the Grand Canyon (built to European Quality specs) to show up here yesterday. Also, did you happen to note the interesting headless person in the second to last shot of the photos.

[Robert Ryan]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Yeah, supposing you survive it. I was there for business some years ago, with my subcontractor beside me in the back seat of a client's car, and as our host was driving like a bat out of hell, my sub kept slapping me with his iPhone in order to draw my attention to his GPS app which was reading 126 mph. He didn't want to speak out loud lest he distract the mad driver from his essential task, so he just kept hitting me with his stupid phone. Never again...

No doubt loitering Notice they cannot escape the Big Trucks on the Autobahn.
If you have an accident on the Abahns you pay for EVERYTHING!

[Robert Ryan]

Originally Posted by teck13

I'd very much like to have a flux capacitor. And like you, I'd like the Grand Canyon (built to European Quality specs) to show up here yesterday. Also, did you happen to note the interesting headless person in the second to last shot of the photos.

We have problems with European”quality” but US built rigs are as bad if not worse.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by teck13

I'd very much like to have a flux capacitor. And like you, I'd like the Grand Canyon (built to European Quality specs) to show up here yesterday. Also, did you happen to note the interesting headless person in the second to last shot of the photos.

Sorry, her name is Alice but not my pictures so I photoshopped her head a little, perhaps more than just a little .

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by teck13

... Also, did you happen to note the interesting headless person in the second to last shot of the photos.

... and she is sitting on the environmentally-friendly composting Air-Loo

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by BBQ

... and she is sitting on the environmentally-friendly composting Air-Loo

If I would place people I know on a Bell probability curve Alice, myself, my wife and many others would be on the 3 sigma for out side of “through my dead body”. So, I am convinced she is not sitting on the composting or any other toilet.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Rok

Is there a "B" out there with a 20 gallon black tank? I would love to be able to dump half as often. We have a 10 gallon one in our Great West Legend SE, and even the 12 gallon one on the Pleasure Way would seem like a luxury.

The first generation Airstream Interstates had fairly large tanks. Ours is a 2007 RS model and has an 18 gallon gray, 20 gallon black, and 26.5 gallon fresh.

[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by Rok

Is there a "B" out there with a 20 gallon black tank? I would love to be able to dump half as often. We have a 10 gallon one in our Great West Legend SE, and even the 12 gallon one on the Pleasure Way would seem like a luxury.

Do check out the Winnebago ERA 70M. That particular model has huge tanks for a class-B, and is priced like a Winnebago. Fresh is 44, Black is 22, grey is 25 on that unit.

[Rok]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

Do check out the Winnebago ERA 70M. That particular model has huge tanks for a class-B, and is priced like a Winnebago. Fresh is 44, Black is 22, grey is 25 on that unit.

I checked it out online. It looks like a redo of the old Leisure Travel Van Free Spirit. It looks like the bed is not wide enough for two, and I wonder if you could deploy it without the slide-out being out? If not, that would hinder stealth sleeping.

I haven't been able to see one of these IRL, but I've always wanted to see one.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Rok

I checked it out online. It looks like a redo of the old Leisure Travel Van Free Spirit. It looks like the bed is not wide enough for two, and I wonder if you could deploy it without the slide-out being out? If not, that would hinder stealth sleeping.

I haven't been able to see one of these IRL, but I've always wanted to see one.

The FreeSpirit is on the short Sprinter chassis (19')

The ERA is on the long XL Sprinter chassis (24')

You cannot get a bigger Class B than the ERA.
They have one model without the slideout.

If you are on a budget, you can pick up a used one for a very good price.

[teck13]

Last weekend my wife and I (plus our big white dog) returned to a large dealer near Sacramento, CA. It was interesting and illuminating to compare side by side the Hymer Active, the Travato 59K and Roadtrek Agile. The Roadtrek Agile, rationally and on paper, has all the goods. But inside it feels cramped, and as I experienced previously, terribly old fashioned. It costs significantly more than the other two vans but does not seem to be of any higher quality. The paneling and cabinets look and feel cheap. I had never checked out the Roadtrek Agile windows and they are awful. Only a tiny section at the bottom opens and the mechanism is super cheap. In addition, the design only allows the tiny bottom section to open an inch or two – not much cross breeze going to happen with those windows. Super cheap feeling mechanism that was jammed already on one window in the brand-new coach. You can just tell those cheesy knobs and mechanisms won’t last. The cabin, being a Mercedes, is the nicest by a wide margin – about the only thing that seemed premium. The kitchen area is nice and offers the most counter space. The wardrobe at the rear, on the passenger side is just ridiculous. It should be an option. I guess a few full timers might want/need hanging clothes space but we for sure would gladly get rid of that big box for more seating space and just opening up the interior to not feel so claustrophobic. We haven’t been able to rent an Agile yet but the bath is probably the smallest I have seen in any B Class van. Really tight. I am over six feet tall and not skinny. Any shower would be sitting – not a preference. Inside latch on Bath just screams afterthought and poor quality. Tank capacities of Agile are impressive for a B. But for us, really the only plus of the Agile is that it can be ordered as a 4X4.
The Hymer Aktiv. Both of us liked the thick, real mattress on the rear bed and the bathroom looked large enough to be usable to her. Per my last checking out of the Aktiv, the quality was so-so. The more European color choices appealed to both of us. The dinette up front looks inviting, and while the bench is more comfortable than the Revel’s, I would not want to sit there for any extended periods of time – kind’a defeating the purpose of the up-front dinette seating/lounge area. Wife’s main concern was there was no place large enough for the dog to spread out and sleep which is not a design or quality issue in any way. So, we moved on to the Travato 59K.
After being in the Agile and Aktiv 1.0, stepping into the Travato 59K is like a blast of fresh air. Open and welcoming feeling. Not claustrophobic at all. Wife and I both love the rear bath layout. Actually, large enough to comfortably take a shower in. Kitchen is great too. Slightly larger fridge than the other two, similar two burner cooktop, but a larger sink with a gooseneck faucet. And microwave is convection, as is the one in the Agile. Twin beds seemed comfortable and I like that the head section can be raised slightly like a chaise lounge. Doesn’t come across as luxurious but seemed the best screwed together of the three coaches we were looking at. We’re not looking for luxurious, we want comfortable and durable. Ducted heating is a plus (Aktiv also had). Cabinets and latches felt robust. None of the three vans we were looking at are four seasons ready but the Travato 59K is probably the closest – especially if ordered with the optional dual pane windows and tank heaters.
Only a few negatives, some workable one perhaps not. The tank capacities are small and even smaller on the new 59KL. Also, there is no inverter included in the standard 59K – Really??? There would be work-arounds for charging our laptops and phones but we would have to fire up generator every time wanted to use the microwave, let alone the AC. The Lithium version is going to be a huge (like $20K) upcharge. But the biggest issue is there is no 4X4 option. Plus, the rear axle runs all the way across the back and is only a little more than six inches off the ground. That is not good clearance. Added on top of a slightly longer wheelbase (159” vs. 144”) than the Sprinter van this unit is not going to excel on forest service back roads.
So where do we want to make the huge compromises? Give up 4X4 and the ability to get to many of the trailheads we want to get but have a comfortable open van with a usable bathroom or keep looking at the overpriced Agile with 4X4 but be claustrophobic interior and struggle with the small bath? As many have recommended, we are trying to rent both which is really the only way to get the definitive information we need to decide.
Unfortunate nobody makes a van even close to what we, and I suspect many others, are looking for. Which is the point of my originally creating this thread discussion. Where the heck is the Revel 2.0 with some comfort and livability. Or a Travato with 4X4?
The exploration continues …