Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[Robert Ryan]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Australia alone sold more Hilux than that.

If only that was true. It appears to be race between the Hilux ( leading model) and the Ranger. For best selling "car "in Australia . Plenty of new models and brands entering the race.As this is a Class B forum, it is a side issue
One Interesting fact is the Isuzu Ute is the second best selling none US brand Globally with 300,000. Ranger on a Global scale sells 100,000. It is hampered by it''s small prescience in Asia.

[gregmchugh]

Toyota sold 200,000 Tacomas in the US in 2017.

Are those considered distinct from the HiLux?

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Toyota sold 200,000 Tacomas in the US in 2017.

Are those considered distinct from the HiLux?

They are different machines.

HiLux is smaller.
Just a tiny bit smaller.

[teck13]

This discussion kind'a took a little detour to talk about pickup trucks - a topic near and dear to my heart but I stated this thread asking the question, "Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?" Thanks to all the smart people on this forum I learn more everyday about Class B vans. I just read several dozen posts regarding folks taking delivery of new Hymer Aktiv’s (one of the vehicles we are considering) and I must say the poor design and quality of Hymer and Roadtrek products delivered in the U.S. is absolutely shocking. I totally get these are very complicated vehicles and I don't expect perfection but for something that costs $100,000+ I don't understand the lack of smart design, testing, quality control and seemingly haphazard dealer pre-delivery protocols. For example, did Hymer not real world test their inverters before installing them? I understand suppliers not making components sometimes up to spec but it seems many of these are failing immediately. Something seriously wrong there. I am encouraged, from reports on this forum, that Hymer is AGGESSIVELY working with new owners to remedy the inverter and other delivery issues but wow.

On the topic of this thread, most everything I read about Hymer RVs manufactured in Europe suggests they are some the highest quality and best designed RVs. Doesn't seem to be translating to their initial offerings here. I am watching closely if they can quickly address Roadtrek's quality issues (lights not attached to the ceiling, cushions flying all over the coach and especially all the electrical gremlins) which are inexcusable. The six-year warrantee is a very positive step but if there are ongoing and non-stop issues a strong warrantee is not enough.

I am so anxious about the quality issues that it is now making me revisit the Revel because Winnebago seems to build consistently quality products even though the unit is way to spartan for our needs and the bed is too small. As I said in my initial posting, the Revel is a rare example of a U.S. company taking a new and encouraging tack.

It’s a little baffling to me why Hymer doesn’t simply build the European 4X4 Grand Canyon [Sprinter] here (or in Canada), modifying the electrical system for 112, and with “German” build quality.

[BBQ]

.

Regarding the inverter... this is an RT legacy (pre-Hymer). They chose a Chinese no-name supplier, and they stuck with it. Probably because they have committed to a large volume for better pricing.

[BBQ]

.

Hymer is trying hard. They have built a new factory for the Aktiv line.

I am surprised that they are not hiring all new people to run the new shop. You can definitely see the same problems carry over from the RT products.

[teck13]

My sense is that they are trying hard to get everything pointed in the right direction. I hope we start seeing results pretty soon.

[booster]

As was mentioned by some, I really don't think they will get the entire thing resolved until the hangover "our stuff doesn't stink" (regardless of how bad it works) attitude of the old Roadtrek carryover administration is sent packing. Many of us cannot understand how they can still be there considering how poorly Roadtrek was run and how the rollouts of the Hymers got handled. It is mystifying. We were all hoping for better.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by teck13

My sense is that they are trying hard to get everything pointed in the right direction. I hope we start seeing results pretty soon.

In addition I hope they start marketing and communicating much more clearly what their intentions are in the U.S. with the two brands now under the Hymer Umbrella. If the Aktiv brand is going to be their more European designed line then they quickly need a 4X4 offering so a buyer can truly be "Aktiv" with one of them.

If Aktiv is going to be more of an entry-level/family offering then that's cool but then again they'll need more than one and a half models (Aktiv and Aktiv 2.0). Plus, if Hymers are more entry-level then then they need to offer their expensive Roadtreks with dramatically more contemporary finishes and designs (more open) and bring the quality level up to, at least, the German standards.

This is business and marketing 101.

[BBQ]

.

They need to get the pink slips out. First, they need to fire a few useless people. Especially those who are entrusted with customer resolutions. They have been creating more bad will and anger and frustrations than happy customers. Some of these customers are retirees. They are old people. They don't have much time or energy to deal with a non-working hi-tech RV. Some of the customers spent $150k+ on essentially a paperweight, a lawn ornament.
These heartless customer service staff got to go.


ps. I wonder if there are any internal communication between depts. Do the customer service speak to the engineering dept at all? Do the engineers know the problems out in the field? They seem to be so disconnected.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

They need to get the pink slips out. First, they need to fire a few useless people. Especially those who are entrusted with customer resolutions. They have been creating more bad will and anger and frustrations than happy customers. Some of these customers are retirees. They are old people. They don't have much time or energy to deal with a non-working hi-tech RV. Some of the customers spent $150k+ on essentially a paperweight, a lawn ornament.
These heartless customer service staff got to go.


ps. I wonder if there are any internal communication between depts. Do the customer service speak to the engineering dept at all? Do the engineers know the problems out in the field? They seem to be so disconnected.

One thing that the internal communications would probably show is the effort to intimidate customers from complaining or publicizing their issues with threats of lawsuits and threats of moving their claims to the end of the warranty que. That has to be the lowest of low for anyone to do to their customers who spent big bucks and trusted the "reputation" of Roadtrek.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by booster

As was mentioned by some, I really don't think they will get the entire thing resolved until the hangover "our stuff doesn't stink" (regardless of how bad it works) attitude of the old Roadtrek carryover administration is sent packing. Many of us cannot understand how they can still be there considering how poorly Roadtrek was run and how the rollouts of the Hymers got handled. It is mystifying. We were all hoping for better.

I agree, it is truly mystifying. The introduction and rollout of the Aktiv's seems like it was total amateur hour.

I am also mystified by simple things like why are all the Roadtrek interior offerings so dark in color? Their design is claustrophobic to start with but I appreciate for many that's a worthwhile trade-off. I get that "just" changing the cabinet design from the current old fashion "grandmother" look is big task but offering a laminate color that's not depressing would be easy.

Another thing, specifically about the Agile, that is mystifying ... I contacted Roadtrek Corporate and asked if I could simply delete the long wardrobe on the passenger side rear. Roadtrek was very cordial but essentially the answer was that is something I'd have to work with a Roadtrek dealer on - yeah right. I appreciate it would involve a slightly different build in the rear area but I can not be the only one that would like the ability to comfortably seat four in the rear with the corresponding extra openness and additional light. Auto companies with automated production lines allow for options like five or seven passenger seating in an SUV, completely different engine choices including hybrids, running bars, transmission choices, captain's chairs or a bench, etc. From what I gather and have read about RV and Van manufacturing is dramatically less automated, especially outside of Winnebago. It shouldn't be that difficult to delete an item, move a small TV mount and modify the wall material/siding so it looks professional and high quality. It seems like Roadtreks are only a few steps above being individually hand pieced together as it is.

Guess it's time we visited some van RV factories. I am sure it's more involved than I think it is but probably also easier than they are telling me it would be.

These van companies can and should limit the total number of models but then within the models there should be REAL options - not just tiny choices of one ugly fake wood laminate over another or propane cooktop vs. induction.

[booster]

We hear you on the dark interiors. We have one of the very last of the Chevy 190s with the light maple cabinets, and are very glad we didn't wait any longer as the cherry would certainly not be as nice.

What I do wonder about, though, is that there seems to be conflicting desires in a lot of the wants of everyone lately. The "openness" drive has been going on a while, and is a big factor in why so many Bs are now 24' long and on duals, I think, especially with the want of a big bathroom too. The other thing we are seeing more recently is a desire for more "active" people designs, including 4 wheel drive, indoor bike storage, etc, along with more connectivity and electrical power instead of propane. I think to truly get a 4 wheel drive that is useful for going hard to get at places, it needs to be single rear wheels and probably not much more than 20" long tops. If you start to try to couple that with openness, it just doesn't work very well because there isn't enough room for it all.

Our 07 190P is also near the end of when they had a cabinet on the driver side behind the kitchen, as well as the one on the passenger side, and also an aisle shower with the toilet facing the center so it is a tiny amount of space used. We had the third seat and replaced it with another armoire. We certainly don't have an open floorplan, but with the window midship in the kitchen we get light and width all the way back to front down the aisle. DW is claustrophobic, and it does not bother her at all, so looks can be deceiving, I think. She does get uncomfortable in a van with a full height of cabinets and such from front to rear on one side but with the other side open, presumably because it makes her feel unbalanced like walking very close to a full wall. What we do have is plenty of storage good for months at a time with room to spare. I can carry a full size folding mountain bike under the now full time bed and still have room for lots of other stuff there. We are about 20.5' to the bumper and a bit longer with the continental spare, single rear wheels with 9600# capacity.

I would not be surprised to see a movement back to the shorter, single wheel vans, like the Promaster, short Transit, and short Sprinter, both with 4 wheel and 2 wheel drive and less open, more versatile interiors.

[Robert Ryan]

They are different machines

Probably the only correct statement in your post. Payload , (2700lbs is the max payload) GVWR is considerably heavier, both are very good Off Road. Current Hilux is primarily diesel a 2.8 litre. Towing is 3.5 tonne (7,700lbs). It is as big as the current Ranger, US Colorado think 2003 F150 in size.

[Robert Ryan]

Greg
Yes very different. Primarily Diesel, much heavier GVWR and payload ( HD F150 area). Similar in size to your Colorado

[mumkin]

I too had high hopes that Hymer would come in with German efficiency and their reputation for quality... and get a start on fixing the deficiencies in Roadtrek's system.

But, their emphasis since the takeover has been on building their new factory and pushing out new - often poorly thought out new options. The Carado line of cheap shoddy construction is the most glaring example. The Sonne never did make it to dealers and has finally been scrubbed from their website for even special orders. (and any minute... as promised for the last year and a half, their small travel trailers are supposed to be coming out)

I nearly bought an Activ and had negotiated a good deal, but my long time dealer, Lake Region, stepped up and put together a Roadtrek rig with everything I wanted. Some of which the factory agreed to do and some of which the dealer will do... plus a few tweaks at Waldoch. Coming away with a well functioning vehicle means that you need a good dealer who can overcome the factory problems.

That 6 year warranty is their best selling point to me.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Toyota sold 200,000 Tacomas in the US in 2017.

Are those considered distinct from the HiLux?

Originally Posted by BBQ

They are different machines.

HiLux is smaller.
Just a tiny bit smaller.

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Probably the only correct statement in your post. Payload , (2700lbs is the max payload) GVWR is considerably heavier, both are very good Off Road. Current Hilux is primarily diesel a 2.8 litre. Towing is 3.5 tonne (7,700lbs). It is as big as the current Ranger, US Colorado think 2003 F150 in size.

Duh. Big guy. What is your point?

[Robert Ryan]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Duh. Big guy. What is your point?

They are very different Pickups built for NA in the case of the Tacoma and Global in the case of the Hilux and it's variants. Although both are similar is size.

[mumkin]

I'm thinking that if you two want to discuss pick-up trucks, you might use the private message system.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I'm thinking that if you two want to discuss pick-up trucks, you might use the private message system.

Hold on, pickup trucks are potential rv's.

Bud