Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[teck13]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

Exactly. Italian design, Mexican build, American motor, Canadian conversion, French grill.

And ugly in all five languages but sure seems functional.

[MsNomer]

Beauty is the eye of the beholder.

[teck13]

So in this exploratory of ours to find an appropriate Class B for our journeys and wondering about U.S. Class B manufacturers I just discovered that Midwest Automotive does indeed make a short (144) Sprinter van called the Passage that looks like it can be ordered with 4X4.

Does anyone have any first hand experience with this brand? I remember going through one of their Day Cruisers at a dealer a little while back and being impressed with the fit and finish and the apparent quality of the build. The salesperson incorrectly informed me, at the time, there were no other layouts available than the Day Cruiser - how can they be so uninformed? (A other topic I know.)

I have no doubt a 4X4 Passage would be lots more money than the Travato 59K we are zeroing in on but curious what the range of prices actually paid might
be? I am assuming Roadtrek Agile range but not sure about it.

Make take, looking at their website and the Day Cruiser I remember seeing, is that it's a little like a slightly more refined and modern Pleasure-Way Ascent but with 4X4 available. Could be an appealing option.

Appreciate any info you all might have.

[Mat Mobile]

It's the first time I hear of them. But I was just wondering where you were planning on putting your bikes in this layout. Or do they build custom?



It just doesn't really seem "rugged" and easy to clean.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Mat Mobile

It's the first time I hear of them. But I was just wondering where you were planning on putting your bikes in this layout. Or do they build custom? It just doesn't really seem "rugged" and easy to clean.

A very relevant question re the bike rack. Either my Thule dual bike rack that goes into the hitch or find a rack that can be attached one of the rear doors.

I agree the interior feels more luxurious than outdoorsy but it's ultra leather so easier to clean and more durable than real leather at least.

After all the time I have spent looking at the Travatos now the Passage seems (and is) smaller inside. But I dig the four wheel drive capability, MB chassis and possibly more clearance if I can get one without the hideous plastic side running boards and steps and front air dam.

[mumkin]

I've only checked them out at my dealer while waiting for work to be done on my rig. They are very plush... rather over the top to me. Their reputation is good, but I must admit that I know no one who has owned one of them.

They make many different floor plans and models. They have even made some on the longest Promaster. I had talked to them about whether they would consider doing a shorter Promaster, but they said not at this time.

[teck13]

Thought I'd share a few additional thoughts on a Midwest Passage. First, I called and emailed the company directly several days ago and never heard a peep back - not encouraging when you look at the premium costs of their coaches. How many other categories have such high priced products and lackluster customer service?

I also spoke several times with one of their largest dealers and they have been very helpful providing information and answering questions about the Passage.

I confess I am back on my heels a bit looking at the actual MSRP on a Passage. With 4X4, no lithium and only the front and rear screen option selected were talking in the ballpark of $138K. Wow, that's a chuck of cheese even if a dealer is willing to come down some. I am not saying it isn't worth it but I don't think we want to spend that kind of money for our first motorhome. Maybe in five years, if we love it - and hopefully we will, we'll upgrade but the Travato is ticking a lot of boxes for us right now except the 4X4 one. Plus, I can buy one and one half Travatos for the same money or one Travato and a hell of a lot of fuel.

The other issue is, Midwest like all the coach builders, has very long wait time for 4X4 Sprinters - I learned it would be around 8 months for delivery. That kind of time frame then begs the question of do you wait even a little longer and have a coach built on the new 2019 Sprinter chassis that is launching 4th quarter of this year. I know there will be some lag between the 2019 Sprinter launch and coaches being built but a 2019 chassis and coach is going to depreciate far less than a 2018 chassis and coach.

Looking for a class B coach in the U.S. has been quite a journey so far and we don't even have wheels yet.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by teck13

Thought I'd share a few additional thoughts on a Midwest Passage. First, I called and emailed the company directly several days ago and never heard a peep back - not encouraging when you look at the premium costs of their coaches. How many other categories have such high priced products and lackluster customer service?

I also spoke several times with one of their largest dealers and they have been very helpful providing information and answering questions about the Passage.

I confess I am back on my heels a bit looking at the actual MSRP on a Passage. With 4X4, no lithium and only the front and rear screen option selected were talking in the ballpark of $138K. Wow, that's a chuck of cheese even if a dealer is willing to come down some. I am not saying it isn't worth it but I don't think we want to spend that kind of money for our first motorhome. Maybe in five years, if we love it - and hopefully we will, we'll upgrade but the Travato is ticking a lot of boxes for us right now except the 4X4 one. Plus, I can buy one and one half Travatos for the same money or one Travato and a hell of a lot of fuel.

The other issue is, Midwest like all the coach builders, has very long wait time for 4X4 Sprinters - I learned it would be around 8 months for delivery. That kind of time frame then begs the question of do you wait even a little longer and have a coach built on the new 2019 Sprinter chassis that is launching 4th quarter of this year. I know there will be some lag between the 2019 Sprinter launch and coaches being built but a 2019 chassis and coach is going to depreciate far less than a 2018 chassis and coach.

Looking for a class B coach in the U.S. has been quite a journey so far and we don't even have wheels yet.

I had the opportunity to side by side compare a Xantrex lithium equipped Midwest Weekender MD2 (similar to the Passage) with the Coachmen Galleria FL24 3i with the same Xantrex lithium package. Both were very well built and a cut above Roadtrek build quality. Remarkably, they looked like they came off the same production line. The one exception was cabinetry joinery (not the facings) which was substantially more refined in the Galleria.

I know everybody has different preferences but for me I would gladly trade off a $12,000 4 x 4 option which would get rare use, for the Xantrex lithium package which you would appreciate and enjoy every day. IMO, any class B has too long a wheel base, too little road clearance and unacceptable approach and departure angles for a 4 x 4 to be a viable feature.

Since this is your first RV your best choice might well be one you mentioned: the Travato which is indisputably the best bang for the buck in a class B today. It's so popular that if at some point you want to go upward and onward you'll be able to sell it in a heartbeat. That said, be sure to audit the Promaster driver and passenger seats to ensure that they're to your liking. There doesn't seem to be any middle of the road opinion regarding them. Folks seem to either love 'em or hate 'em.

If you're veering toward a Sprinter, I agree that it makes sense to wait for the next generation 2019 version, if for no other reason, I think you'll be able to choose between a diesel or gas engine.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by teck13

.... With 4X4, no lithium and only the front and rear screen option selected were talking in the ballpark of $138K. Wow, that's a chuck of cheese even if a dealer is willing to come down some. I am not saying it isn't worth it but I don't think we want to spend that kind of money for our first motorhome. ...

Pardon me if I've said this before - it's a 200-comment older thread and I cannot recall what I may have posted.

Rather than DIY your entire build (massive job!) as one of the recent posters suggested, have you considered the middle ground - buying moderately used and doing your own upgrades?

Better-built older but well-maintained Sprinter-based Bs with less than 50K miles on them are around $50K. Get up around 100K miles and you're looking at maybe $35K - $45K range. If you got one of those and put another $10K - $20K into it, you'd have the functional equivalent of a $120K rig for half that price or less, supposing you were willing to invest your own sweat equity. And 50K or 100K miles is still relatively low for a well-cared-for Sprinter, especially if you get one of the older ones (T1Ns).

My husband and I fell onto that pathway by accident, and I'm glad we did because it was absolutely the right choice for us. We have an 11-year-old rig that we wouldn't give up supposing someone offered us a straight trade for any new unit on the market.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

That said, be sure to audit the Promaster driver and passenger seats to ensure that they're to your liking. There doesn't seem to be any middle of the road opinion regarding them. Folks seem to either love 'em or hate 'em.

We took a long test drive in a Travato and I am actually one of the rare in the middle people regarding the Promaster driving position. No doubt I like the Sprinter seat and driving position better. But a long time ago I grew up with Fiat and Alfa sports cars with the f’d up horizontal and far away steering wheels. Never grew to like it but did get used to it.

Why they can’t add a tilt function to the Promaster is beyond me.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Pardon me if I've said this before - it's a 200-comment older thread and I cannot recall what I may have posted.

Rather than DIY your entire build (massive job!) as one of the recent posters suggested, have you considered the middle ground - buying moderately used and doing your own upgrades?

Better-built older but well-maintained Sprinter-based Bs with less than 50K miles on them are around $50K. Get up around 100K miles and you're looking at maybe $35K - $45K range. If you got one of those and put another $10K - $20K into it, you'd have the functional equivalent of a $120K rig for half that price or less, supposing you were willing to invest your own sweat equity. And 50K or 100K miles is still relatively low for a well-cared-for Sprinter, especially if you get one of the older ones (T1Ns).

My husband and I fell onto that pathway by accident, and I'm glad we did because it was absolutely the right choice for us. We have an 11-year-old rig that we wouldn't give up supposing someone offered us a straight trade for any new unit on the market.

I did persue used Class B vans but pursuit was not fruitful. Very very few, if any, used 4X4 Sprinters available. A non 4X4 Sprinter makes no sense for us - significant premium and little added functionality over a Promaster. And noticeable less room and flexibility.

Second, here in California, both private sellers and dealers think used camper vans should demand prices close to new ones. I’ll pass on that bad deal.

Finally, I wish I had construction skills but alas I do not. I can take apart a bike and put back together and even do basic automotive maintance but carpentry gene I don’t possess.

[Mat Mobile]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Pardon me if I've said this before - it's a 200-comment older thread and I cannot recall what I may have posted.

Rather than DIY your entire build (massive job!) as one of the recent posters suggested, have you considered the middle ground - buying moderately used and doing your own upgrades?

Better-built older but well-maintained Sprinter-based Bs with less than 50K miles on them are around $50K. Get up around 100K miles and you're looking at maybe $35K - $45K range. If you got one of those and put another $10K - $20K into it, you'd have the functional equivalent of a $120K rig for half that price or less, supposing you were willing to invest your own sweat equity. And 50K or 100K miles is still relatively low for a well-cared-for Sprinter, especially if you get one of the older ones (T1Ns).

My husband and I fell onto that pathway by accident, and I'm glad we did because it was absolutely the right choice for us. We have an 11-year-old rig that we wouldn't give up supposing someone offered us a straight trade for any new unit on the market.

I think I'm the one who suggested this.

Originally Posted by teck13

I did persue used Class B vans but pursuit was not fruitful. Very very few, if any, used 4X4 Sprinters available. A non 4X4 Sprinter makes no sense for us - significant premium and little added functionality over a Promaster. And noticeable less room and flexibility.

Second, here in California, both private sellers and dealers think used camper vans should demand prices close to new ones. I’ll pass on that bad deal.

Finally, I wish I had construction skills but alas I do not. I can take apart a bike and put back together and even do basic automotive maintance but carpentry gene I don’t possess.

But this is not exactly what I was suggesting.

My idea is to purchase a lightly used and have it upgraded by 2-3 choice "tradesmen/mechanics".

In my case, I bought a 1999 Roadtrek and had it upgraded by 3 key "suppliers".

• I ordered the suspension lift system and front bumber from Weldtec Designs.
• I have a commercial truck upfitter building and installing: a roof rack, solar panels, electrical sytem, rear bumper, refrigerator and do all the installation.
• I had a local 4x4 shop install the suspension (PJF4X4).

I have the ability to do all of this but I do not have the time and I no longer have the work space.

Basically, I did all the research (the fun part!), ordered all the parts and had them delivered to the appropriate "supplier". The commercial truck upfitter (who deals with utility companies, mines and even the army) is in charge of the finished product and coordination to deliver a turnkey van.

The only thing I did was help out the garage with removing the grey water tank (up on a lift, so much easier) and I plan on painting the cabinetry with my wife.

I admit I had to do a little more follow-up and phone calls than expected but I think it's similar to having a house built.

Rough prices

My project van (Canadian $ and includes taxes):
- 1999 Roadtrek : 20,000$
- Suspension+bumper+wheels+winch : 12,000$
- Suspension installation + tires : 11,000$
- Roof Rack + Line-X + Solar + Electrical + various : 20,000$

Final price: 65,000$

(I’m aware that I might have to do a motor swap in 100,000Km so add 10,000$ to my price for the worst case scenario.)

Cost of a new Roadtrek (with comparable options): 140,000$ + tax

Please note that the new Roadtrek still needs a lift so you probably have to add another 20,000$ to that cost.

The point is, the van we’re building will suit our needs perfectly whereas the new one does not suit our needs and is twice the cost.

Our van will still be 2WD but will have a locking differential, plenty of ground clearance and all parts are brand new. If ever I get stuck I have MaxTraxs and a winch to get me out of trouble. If ever a place requires a 4x4, we'll rent one. I expect to be able to do 98% of what we want to do. Originally, we had planned to do the pan-American highway but we will probably end up shipping it to Europe with side trips to Morocco, Turkey and beyond. I think our vehicle is very capable with the added advantage of not looking “brand new/expensive” (but who am I kidding, it will stick out for sure).

My suggestion to you

- You will never find the perfect van for your needs from the major manufacturers. They are always a compromise to reach the broadest market.

- And it is very unlikely you will find a used 4x4 in good condition.

So why not look at a gently used Ford Pleasure-Way and have it upgraded to 4x4 by U-Joint? Or a gently used chevy Roadtrek and have it upgraded by Weldtec Designs.

If you don’t like the interior, have a local carpenter re-do your drawer and doors. Then have the bed in the back lifted by 6” or more to store bikes underneath. Follow that by a quick paint job to your liking. I doubt it would be more than $5-10k...

About Midwest vans
BTW, I never got your interest in the Midwest vans. To me they’re like limousines with a big bathroom.
And, pardon if this sounds critical, I don’t understand why you would want to leave your bikes on a rear bike rack. I’m assuming your mountain bikes are expensive. Spending for a new van with 4x4 to get to “the best” trailheads implies that the bikes are worth the effort. I would not want to leave them on a bike rack while having lunch, going sightseeing, grocery shopping, etc. Or simply leaving them out in the rain. Having interior storage (similar to the Revel) is so worth it! You can even leave them inside the van a couple nights before heading out for the weekend. Makes the Friday night rush so much easier. Also, it make it easier to unpack on Monday night instead of Sunday evening.

Anyways, my intention is simply to help you think of other possibilities in your quest. Good luck and keep us posted!

[Mat Mobile]

How about a 2000 Chinook Baja 4x4 and more info?

[Mat Mobile]

Have you looked into the Overland Explorer Sprinter vans?

They can do custom work BTW. Plus they are based in Canada so you could get a "boost" with the exchange rate.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Mat Mobile

...
My idea is to purchase a lightly used and have it upgraded by 2-3 choice "tradesmen/mechanics".

In my case, I bought a 1999 Roadtrek and had it upgraded by 3 key "suppliers".
...
Final price: 65,000$

(I’m aware that I might have to do a motor swap in 100,000Km so add 10,000$ to my price for the worst case scenario.)

The point is, the van we’re building will suit our needs perfectly whereas the new one does not suit our needs and is twice the cost.
...
My suggestion to you

- You will never find the perfect van for your needs from the major manufacturers. They are always a compromise to reach the broadest market.

- And it is very unlikely you will find a used 4x4 in good condition.

So why not look at a gently used Ford Pleasure-Way and have it upgraded to 4x4 by U-Joint? Or a gently used chevy Roadtrek and have it upgraded by Weldtec Designs.

About Midwest vans
BTW, I never got your interest in the Midwest vans. To me they’re like limousines with a big bathroom.
And, pardon if this sounds critical, I don’t understand why you would want to leave your bikes on a rear bike rack. I’m assuming your mountain bikes are expensive. Spending for a new van with 4x4 to get to “the best” trailheads implies that the bikes are worth the effort. I would not want to leave them on a bike rack while having lunch, going sightseeing, grocery shopping, etc. Or simply leaving them out in the rain. Having interior storage (similar to the Revel) is so worth it! You can even leave them inside the van a couple nights before heading out for the weekend. Makes the Friday night rush so much easier. Also, it make it easier to unpack on Monday night instead of Sunday evening.

Anyways, my intention is simply to help you think of other possibilities in your quest. Good luck and keep us posted!

Hey, your intentions and thoughts have been helpful as we think through this whole thing.

The used thing works better in theory than in reality for us. There is a very limited supply of later model units available in the SF Bay Area. I simply don't have the time to chase down units that might be more appropriate and affordable around the rest of the country. Plus, as I mentioned, construction ability I have is a tiny step above none so, likewise, finding competent experienced folks who could do all that work required would take a lot of time we don't have.

I did look at possibly finding and purchasing a lightly used Pleasure-Way Ascent and having it converted to 4X4 but that's $25,000 plus just for the conversion. This makes used get expensive fast.

As for the mountain bikes. I would prefer to carry and keep them inside but as you and many other have very correctly hammered into me, Class B Vans are all about compromise. The Revel would carry the bikes inside but you can't store them inside with the bed down. The Safari bed is high enough to store the bikes but it's a very long wait to get one and complicated with the purchaser needing to supply the van all the way in Canada. Two bikes would fit in an Activ or a Travato G but the Activ quality worries me and my wife simply did not like the interior layout including not enough room for our large dog. The Travato G's bed is too small for us.

So I intend to order a Travato K with the bike rack and secure it best I can. In some cases I will move the more valuable bike inside if we are hiking but I know from having my SUV broken into many times - because something is inside doesn't slow down an A$$hole criminal much. Mountain bikes are designed for some degree of wet and muddy weather so I'm not too concerned about that. Again, not ideal but I think the rack on the back will work with a couple of cables and locks.

As for the Midwest Passage. I agree, it's like a limousine with a bathroom. I like the outdoorsy feel of other vans better like the Revel, Outside Vans, Travatos, Sportsmobiles. I simply looked at the Passage because it DOES include a workable and usable layout AND you can order it with 4X4. It's like the Pleasure-Way with the galley on the proper side and room in back for four to sit comfortably. But besides being too limo like, it is simply stupid money and at least an 8 month wait. If we waited that long I'd want a build on the 2019 Sprinter not the current one and that would push the timing out even more.

So I just keep coming back the Travato 59K. It's far from perfect and the lack of 4X4 and crap clearance is a real issue but I'll put on SumoSprings and add T/A K02 tires and just have to accept it wont go everywhere I'd like to go.

But the places it will go, which will be 90% of where we want to go, we will be able to travel in relative comfort.

The Travato just seems to make the best compromises for us. Realizing everyone's needs and desires are different.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Mat Mobile

Have you looked into the Overland Explorer Sprinter vans?

They can do custom work BTW. Plus they are based in Canada so you could get a "boost" with the exchange rate.

I have not looked into Overland Sprinter Vans and thanks for the link. They look awesome, I shudder to think of the costs. But they, like Outside Vans, ARV and some of the other "customs" look fantastic and appear to be of very high quality. With the non-existent availability of 4X4 Sprinters any custom build for us would not only be expensive but a very long wait - and as i mentioned in my other posts we'd be bumping into building on an the current/old Sprinter chassis while the new Sprinter launches 4th qtr. of this year.

Maybe in five years or so, assuming we love the whole van concept, we'll upgrade to a Overland or something similar.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

Hey, your intentions and thoughts have been helpful as we think through this whole thing.

The used thing works better in theory than in reality for us. There is a very limited supply of later model units available in the SF Bay Area. I simply don't have the time to chase down units that might be more appropriate and affordable around the rest of the country. Plus, as I mentioned, construction ability I have is a tiny step above none so, likewise, finding competent experienced folks who could do all that work required would take a lot of time we don't have.

I did look at possibly finding and purchasing a lightly used Pleasure-Way Ascent and having it converted to 4X4 but that's $25,000 plus just for the conversion. This makes used get expensive fast.

As for the mountain bikes. I would prefer to carry and keep them inside but as you and many other have very correctly hammered into me, Class B Vans are all about compromise. The Revel would carry the bikes inside but you can't store them inside with the bed down. The Safari bed is high enough to store the bikes but it's a very long wait to get one and complicated with the purchaser needing to supply the van all the way in Canada. Two bikes would fit in an Activ or a Travato G but the Activ quality worries me and my wife simply did not like the interior layout including not enough room for our large dog. The Travato G's bed is too small for us.

So I intend to order a Travato K with the bike rack and secure it best I can. In some cases I will move the more valuable bike inside if we are hiking but I know from having my SUV broken into many times - because something is inside doesn't slow down an A$$hole criminal much. Mountain bikes are designed for some degree of wet and muddy weather so I'm not too concerned about that. Again, not ideal but I think the rack on the back will work with a couple of cables and locks.

As for the Midwest Passage. I agree, it's like a limousine with a bathroom. I like the outdoorsy feel of other vans better like the Revel, Outside Vans, Travatos, Sportsmobiles. I simply looked at the Passage because it DOES include a workable and usable layout AND you can order it with 4X4. It's like the Pleasure-Way with the galley on the proper side and room in back for four to sit comfortably. But besides being too limo like, it is simply stupid money and at least an 8 month wait. If we waited that long I'd want a build on the 2019 Sprinter not the current one and that would push the timing out even more.

So I just keep coming back the Travato 59K. It's far from perfect and the lack of 4X4 and crap clearance is a real issue but I'll put on SumoSprings and add T/A K02 tires and just have to accept it wont go everywhere I'd like to go.

But the places it will go, which will be 90% of where we want to go, we will be able to travel in relative comfort.

The Travato just seems to make the best compromises for us. Realizing everyone's needs and desires are different.

Just an idea. Order your Safari Condo Sprinter XL Flex 4x4 today. Buy a Travato K now, enjoy it, and sell it when your Flex is ready. If you decide the K is all you need, then sell the new XL Flex (at a premium I'm sure secondary to its uniqueness and scarcity). The Flex sounds like what you truly want.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

Just an idea. Order your Safari Condo Sprinter XL Flex 4x4 today. Buy a Travato K now, enjoy it, and sell it when your Flex is ready. If you decide the K is all you need, then sell the new XL Flex (at a premium I'm sure secondary to its uniqueness and scarcity). The Flex sounds like what you truly want.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by BBQ

What we talked about is ordering a Travato and seeing how it goes. Does it get us to 90% of the trailheads we want to hike or ride? Or does it turn out to be more like 60%? Or perhaps 95%?

How do we like the whole thing. How easy is it to be off the grid for a long weekend? How much, if any, time do we end up spending in RV Parks? How easy or difficult is it to find out-of-the-way places to set up camp for a few days?

The Travato by my evaluation and reckoning is just a whole lot of bang for the buck. It doesn't have the luxury of a Pleasure-Way, or Midwest Auto or arguably a Roadtrek but I like the more rugged and outdoorsy look you can configure one with. The 2019 K comes with 200 watts solar, an inverter, usable bathroom, fridge large enough for more than six ice cubes, flexible and comfortable bed set-up, sound system and TV for movie night , a nice place to use the computer as the passenger seat flips around, a sink big enough to actually wash pots and pans in, and did I mention a bath with a usable shower? The quality while not perhaps top of the heap, is higher than most. Every one we looked at was reasonably well put together and stuff was not falling off or rattling in brand new units.

If we love it and it gets us where we want to be then we're set. If we love the layout and "Vanlife" but it falls down getting us to our desired trailheads and spots then in a few years we'll look for something else with more ground clearance and 4X4.

I will bet money, or a six pack or beer, that is a few year there are lots more and better 4X4 options available. Winnebego, ARV, Sportsmobile, Outside Van and others are seeing the demand and know the market is changing. Hell, maybe even Roadtrek will wake up and offer something cool - it wouldn't be hard to modify an Agile to make it outdoorsy and adventure oriented versus "old fashioned living room" replica.

And sure, we could end up down the road with a Safari? It will be fun to figure it all out.

[mlts22]

I feel the same way about the Travato. It has the best price point out there, and the non-L models should be fairly serviceable if some component breaks outside of the warranty.

The strange thing is that once you get above the Travato's price point, you can start getting custom van upfits for the same price or less than what other makers sell on their lots.