Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Why is this the case?

I would guess it is just like having very wide tires on the snow, you go pretty much nowhere. I think it has to do with having enough concentrated pressure to compress whatever is under the tires into the tread and lugs, while at the same time limiting the width that has to push over whatever is in front of you. EG, dig in instead of float. Long narrow footprint instead of short and wide. And of course getting rocks caught between the duals.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Mat Mobile

BillsPaseo brings up a very important point. As capable as your vehicle can be, unless you designed "the house" specifically from ground up for mild off-roading, you will not WANT to take it there. Just the noise is unbearable and you will always be clenching your teeth.

Just imagine taking your kitchen with all the cabinets and shaking it all at once while you're at the door looking out.

Just try out your rentals on bad dirt roads and you'll understand.

Good tips and advice here. I just want to clarify that we are seeking to get to mountain biking and hiking trailheads. We have no desire or intention to do any kind of hard core off-roading or four wheeling. The trailhead at Gooseberry Mesa is a good example of a road we want to travel successfully. Maybe one day a long trip to Alaska. I am frankly more concerned about the lack of clearance on a Travato and/or the departure angle of a Paseo than the lack of 4X4.

[BillsPaseo]

Yeah the rear departure angle is the reason I'm looking at lift kits for the Paseo. We've dragged the hitch a few times already...

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by BillsPaseo

Yeah the rear departure angle is the reason I'm looking at lift kits for the Paseo. We've dragged the hitch a few times already...

You can get hitch-mount dolly wheels, if that helps.

[BillsPaseo]

Yeah, I actually bought one, but got the wrong kind... I got the kind that goes around the receiver and is held in place by the receiver pin, but the safety chain loops are in the way and it won't work. I need to get the kind that bolt to the hitch itself with u-bolts...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

a true cassette system has it's own flushing liquid supply. in winter instead of water fill with rv antifreeze.

Ours is plumbed into the fresh water supply but it is also winter proof so no problem with using fresh water in the winter.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

Thanks for asking but we haven't made any decisions yet. Both of us work incredibly hectic schedules so I haven't have had as much time as I would like to sort this out. Over the last several months I have looked at many Class Bs. A lot at the Pleasanton RV show, and then several at dealers.

I have checked out, in person, the Aktiv 1.0 and 2.0, Roadtrek Agile and CS Adventurous, Winnebago Revel and Travato 59K and G, Pleasure-way Ascent and Lexor, Airsteam Interstate and Atlas (only as a frame of reference). I have also talked with Outside Van, ARV and Sportsmobile. Online I have checked out the Safari Condos. The only van I have driven is a 59K.

You are correct, and I knew this going in from all the reading and research I had done, it will be about compromise. I just didn't realize how much of a compromise and that is honestly, disappointing. The Revel is a great EXTREME sports van but we are looking for an adventure van for the two of us and our big white dog. We would like a van that facilitates mountain biking - getting to the trailheads all around the west and boondocking once there.

The compromise with the custom vans is time and money - in some case just huge crazy money. So we have essentially narrowed it down (at least for now ) to the Roadtrek Agile and Winnebago Travato 59K.

The Agile is 4X4 and has higher ground clearance which is huge for us but the compromise is an interior that is incredibly old fashioned and claustrophobic. We both really like the layout and openness of the Travato 59K. The large rear bath is a huge plus also. The slightly larger fridge, big galley that's functional enough to actually prepare a nice meal, and long beds all work well for us. The major compromise is not only the front wheel drive (no 4X4 available in the U.S.) but ground clearance of only a bit over 6". I'd really like eight or nine inches. Other than adding SumoSprings to the rear and possibly some slightly larger tires, there is not much that can be done to address this shortcoming for us.

The plan is to rent an Agile and a Travato in the next several weeks. The Agile for rent in this area was being repaired but is just now back and the Travatos available in NorCal seem to all be G's. That will be a good test for us.

What Class B do you have and are you happy with it?

Have you checked out vandoit.com? Customizable, affordable conversions on the Ford Transit platform...but not the one with the incredibly long overhang.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

Have you checked out vandoit.com? Customizable, affordable conversions on the Ford Transit platform...but not the one with the incredibly long overhang.

And you can get the Quigley 4x4 upgrade.

[teck13]

Two weekends ago my wife and I My wife and I spent an long afternoon driving a new 2019 Winnebago Travato 59K and a new 2018 Roadtrek Agile.

It was very illuminating. The Bottom line. The Travato was much more relaxing and enjoyable to be in. The Agile definitely drove better, stronger engine, much more comfortable driving position, but not physically or psychologically relaxing to be inside of it. While some of the materials seem more luxurious, the fit and finish of the Agile was lacking which is even more unacceptable given how much more it costs.

With the open interior and larger bath my wife easily imagined the two of us traveling in the Travato. She thought the Agile felt coffin-like inside and could not believe how old fashioned the interior looked and felt.

Here’s how I summarized it to my wife. I’d much rather drive the Agile but would way more prefer to travel and live out of the Travato. If the Agile’s price came down to the Travato’s I think I’d STILL pick the Travato. And I'd choose a Travato 59KL all day long over an Agile but I do not feel the "L" is worth the extra money they are asking for it today.

Just like I started this thread, I remain surprised and even a bit shocked how out of touch the majors are regarding the rapidly shifting RV market place. Anybody see the recent WSJ article about how younger/non-retired Boomers are a huge market for luxury [camper] vans?

Winnebago, to their credit, is two thirds of the way there with the new Revel and the two Travoto layouts are strong entries. But come on, offer an Adventure Package complete with roof and bike racks, SumoSprings, and T/A K02 tires. Maybe even some cool outdoorsy color.

And Roadtrek and Winnebago, how about building in a place in the galley for garbage and/or recycling. We've never owned an RV but even we can see that's a weird obvious miss.

Hymer, I hope you invest the profits from the highly priced Roadtrek's wisely because without significant changes that deep pocketed older Boomer target audience is not going to be replaced.

We are hoping to order something in the next week or two. It will be interesting to evaluate the quality first hand then. I will keep you all posted.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by teck13

...............................She thought the Agile felt coffin-like inside and could not believe how old fashioned the interior looked and felt.....................

This was our experience in 2013, we walked in and rushed out. Great accommodation for a lot of stuff but it seems Roadtrek forgot about space for people, the ones still moving around.

[booster]

We are likely in the minority on this one, but for us it is much more important to have room for our stuff without having to be 24' long having it piled everywhere. Hauling around a bigger box full of air didn't interest us as much as utility. We rarely spend more than a little bit of time in the morning and evening in the van when traveling, so space is not an issue for us.

We have an 07 Roadtrek 190P on a Chevy, with the add on armoire in place of the third seat. Full time bed in back with full clear space underneath. It certainly is full of cabinets and such, but has windows on one side or the other all the way front to rear and light maple cabinets with tan upholstery and Van trim. I think the light colored interior is a big deal to a lot of folks as it makes the space much less confining. DW is moderately claustrophobic and has no trouble in our van, but put her in van with one side solid wall floor to ceiling and on the other side a counter top, and she feels uncomfortable, probably because of the asymmetrical layout. If the finish is dark she is out of there, and would even have trouble in our van, as she does not like the newer ones with the dark interiors.

Everyone has their own tastes and needs, so there definitely is no one size fits all in RVs. The units that I saw while spending time in England a few years ago were very confining, with every nook and cranny used for something, and nearly all with white or other very light colored interiors.

[avanti]

Yes, it is interesting how there are two schools concerning the importance of openness. We are on the wide-open-spaces side of the spectrum. Our current rig has windows all the way around, except for the bathroom area. We even took down the arm-mounted TV because it was blocking the view. We have even fantasized about rebuilding the shower walls using those clear glass panels that can be made opaque electrically. Every RT I have ever been in has seemed like a cave. Apparently there is a market for both styles.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by teck13

Two weekends ago my wife and I My wife and I spent an long afternoon driving a new 2019 Winnebago Travato 59K and a new 2018 Roadtrek Agile.

It was very illuminating. The Bottom line. The Travato was much more relaxing and enjoyable to be in. The Agile definitely drove better, stronger engine, much more comfortable driving position, but not physically or psychologically relaxing to be inside of it. While some of the materials seem more luxurious, the fit and finish of the Agile was lacking which is even more unacceptable given how much more it costs.

With the open interior and larger bath my wife easily imagined the two of us traveling in the Travato. She thought the Agile felt coffin-like inside and could not believe how old fashioned the interior looked and felt.

Here’s how I summarized it to my wife. I’d much rather drive the Agile but would way more prefer to travel and live out of the Travato. If the Agile’s price came down to the Travato’s I think I’d STILL pick the Travato. And I'd choose a Travato 59KL all day long over an Agile but I do not feel the "L" is worth the extra money they are asking for it today.

Just like I started this thread, I remain surprised and even a bit shocked how out of touch the majors are regarding the rapidly shifting RV market place. Anybody see the recent WSJ article about how younger/non-retired Boomers are a huge market for luxury [camper] vans?

Winnebago, to their credit, is two thirds of the way there with the new Revel and the two Travoto layouts are strong entries. But come on, offer an Adventure Package complete with roof and bike racks, SumoSprings, and T/A K02 tires. Maybe even some cool outdoorsy color.

And Roadtrek and Winnebago, how about building in a place in the galley for garbage and/or recycling. We've never owned an RV but even we can see that's a weird obvious miss.

Hymer, I hope you invest the profits from the highly priced Roadtrek's wisely because without significant changes that deep pocketed older Boomer target audience is not going to be replaced.

We are hoping to order something in the next week or two. It will be interesting to evaluate the quality first hand then. I will keep you all posted.

The slightly greater width and ideal length of the Promaster (Safari Condo XL Flex) won us over. The drive-ability and awesome turning radius are certainly appreciated. This is coming from someone who has never owned an American vehicle. We actually love the seating position.

[mumkin]

It may have a Ram on the front, but it is really just a tweaked Italian Ducato... built in Mexico... LOL I don't even think of it as American.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by mumkin

It may have a Ram on the front, but it is really just a tweaked Italian Ducato... built in Mexico... LOL I don't even think of it as American.

Exactly. Italian design, Mexican build, American motor, Canadian conversion, French grill.

[angelmroman]

Hey AlexJ and teck13. Admittedly, I haven’t read the entire Thread, so this may have been addressed. Have you considered a DIY Project? Build exactly what what you want on your preferred Chassis? If you have, then my apologies.

I’m doing exactly that. My current RT 210 is for sale. Just bought a 2017 Chevy Passenger Van on extended Chassis. The Target is the WGO Revel. All the best Features of the 210 and the Revel are the inspiration for the Build. 9000 Watts (750 AHs) of stored energy, 500 Watts of Solar, 4000 Watt Inverter/Charger/Transfer Relay is the Heart of the electrical system, upgraded 250 Amp Alternator. Everything will be inside the Van. Nothing underneath. A true Four Season, off-the-grid Van. She has an appointment at Quigley in November (Earliest available) for a full 4x4 Conversion. Custom Exterior Paint. This will keep me busy for the next few months.

I like the Safari Condo offerings. The wait list was the deal-breaker for me.

Good luck in your search .

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

Hey AlexJ and teck13. Admittedly, I haven’t read the entire Thread, so this may have been addressed. Have you considered a DIY Project? Build exactly what what you want on your preferred Chassis? If you have, then my apologies.

I’m doing exactly that. My current RT 210 is for sale. Just bought a 2017 Chevy Passenger Van on extended Chassis. The Target is the WGO Revel. All the best Features of the 210 and the Revel are the inspiration for the Build. 9000 Watts (750 AHs) of stored energy, 500 Watts of Solar, 4000 Watt Inverter/Charger/Transfer Relay is the Heart of the electrical system, upgraded 250 Amp Alternator. Everything will be inside the Van. Nothing underneath. A true Four Season, off-the-grid Van. She has an appointment at Quigley in November (Earliest available) for a full 4x4 Conversion. Custom Exterior Paint. This will keep me busy for the next few months.

I like the Safari Condo offerings. The wait list was the deal-breaker for me.

Good luck in your search .

Might as well go for the Volta lithium system...

[angelmroman]

“Might as well go for the Volta lithium system.... ”

Well, Greg. Just like the Movie, it’s “All about the BENJAMINS. I’m doing the entire Van for about $65K. All in. At a minimum, a Volta Package would run $20K more than what I’m proposing.That buys a LOT of gas. I’m sticking with my plans. But hey, thanks anyway. See you on the Road .

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

“Might as well go for the Volta lithium system.... ”

Well, Greg. Just like the Movie, it’s “All about the BENJAMINS. I’m doing the entire Van for about $65K. All in. At a minimum, a Volta Package would run $20K more than what I’m proposing.That buys a LOT of gas. I’m sticking with my plans. But hey, thanks anyway. See you on the Road .

Good choice, I was being a little facetious. The Volta is not a very good value for the money at the moment compared to an AGM battery system but the prices will be coming down on lithium battery systems. I don’t even know what the prices are on the Volta aftermarket retrofit kits and how they compare to the option cost for the similar Volta system on the Winnebagos. Not sure if anyone has gotten the retrofit prices that I have seen.

Hopefully we will meet each other on the road...

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

………………………..
I’m doing exactly that. My current RT 210 is for sale. Just bought a 2017 Chevy Passenger Van on extended Chassis. The Target is the WGO Revel. All the best Features of the 210 and the Revel are the inspiration for the Build. 9000 Watts (750 AHs) of stored energy, 500 Watts of Solar, 4000 Watt Inverter/Charger/Transfer Relay is the Heart of the electrical system, upgraded 250 Amp Alternator. Everything will be inside the Van. Nothing underneath. A true Four Season, off-the-grid Van. She has an appointment at Quigley in November (Earliest available) for a full 4x4 Conversion. Custom Exterior Paint. This will keep me busy for the next few months. …………………..

Good news for you is to know exactly what you want, this will speed up your conversion. “9000 W (unit of power) of energy” you likely meant 9000 Watthour of energy is good but why?

“Next few months” to do the conversion seems a little optimistic, doable with full effort. I calculated my total conversion time at 10hrs/day of about 4 months but my effort was spread over 2 years. Some of the CAD time was not included in this calculation and 6 month of these 2 years we were travelling in EU.