Why are the major class-B manufactures so out of touch and behind in U.S. market?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

a true cassette system has it's own flushing liquid supply. in winter instead of water fill with rv antifreeze.

....exactly, to reduce the displeasure of dumping a bottle of Scotch will suffice.

[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by teck13

Really great information. Thanks for sharing with all of us. Many of the commercially available Promaster vans (e.g. Travato) don't even have one spare so that would be part of any Alaska challenge - adding one or two spares via the hitch and/or a roof rack.

That’s a good point. I didn’t lose any tires when I went, so the “two spares” advice might be dated (I think tires and the roads are both better than they were 40 years ago, but you know how people are, no matter how much technology evolved some people won’t adapt, and their advice stays the same).

Going back, I would take a spare and that handy “tire fix kit” they ship instead of a spare with the RVs. The latter I think just cause it would be more convenient for most issues than switching to the spare.


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[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the Revel. According to some accounts they are selling like hot cakes now but I wonder if people buying them will regret down the line for their limitations. Seriously? Emptying out a bathroom with shelving and storage just to pee? I don't think most once they establish how they will tour will like it. It is way too expensive for the young surfer/biker/climber/hiker/kayaker market that might have done a DIY basic van.

I question too the market for a semi finished basic van by major converters. They would be quickly criticized by lack of amenities because there aren't many people that have the time, inclinations, and skills to finish a van. They would probably cost too much for that crowd anyway. I think anyone undertaking a DIY would also like the freedom of a clean slate design.

I think you may be right that the initial brisk sales are taking care of the pent-up demand for a vehicle like this. I don't get why some foolishly think this is marketed towards millennials - at ~$120k, it clearly is not. It, like all Class B's, are targeted towards the many niches that make up the boomer market. There are MANY empty-nesters and newly retireds that don't consider themselves old and enjoy outdoor sports - some of them extreme like mountain climbing. Are some of them kidding themselves? Maybe, but they are writing those checks!

What I find disappointing in the Revel is the lack of the Pure 3 system and no integrated bike rack system. This vehicle should be made desirable to the mountain biking crowd and I don't see how it would work for them without the door mounted bike rack - putting them inside is tough because there is only one sleeping position on that bed - which is too low to also house a bike.

There are definitely buyers for this thing if they add features - I don't think it's true target demographic is all that price sensitive if they are getting the features they want. But we need to stop with this Millenials talk as the target for anything - even Travato is way too expensive for them. WGO may put fit, pretty 20 & 30-somethings in their advertising materials, but that not who they are going after - it's the 60-70's who still think of themselves as the attractive youngsters in the pictures.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I think you may be right that the initial brisk sales are taking care of the pent-up demand for a vehicle like this. I don't get why some foolishly think this is marketed towards millennials - at ~$120k, it clearly is not. It, like all Class B's, are targeted towards the many niches that make up the boomer market. There are MANY empty-nesters and newly retireds that don't consider themselves old and enjoy outdoor sports - some of them extreme like mountain climbing. Are some of them kidding themselves? Maybe, but they are writing those checks!

What I find disappointing in the Revel is the lack of the Pure 3 system and no integrated bike rack system. This vehicle should be made desirable to the mountain biking crowd and I don't see how it would work for them without the door mounted bike rack - putting them inside is tough because there is only one sleeping position on that bed - which is too low to also house a bike.

There are definitely buyers for this thing if they add features - I don't think it's true target demographic is all that price sensitive if they are getting the features they want. But we need to stop with this Millenials talk as the target for anything - even Travato is way too expensive for them. WGO may put fit, pretty 20 & 30-somethings in their advertising materials, but that not who they are going after - it's the 60-70's who still think of themselves as the attractive youngsters in the pictures.

Amen brother! I could not agree any more with this post. No integrated bike rack, no Pure 3, lowered bed doesn't allow bike storage, limited features, etc. As I have ranted, where the heck is the mountain bike van from a major? Or, as I ask, the Revel 2.0?

They put Millennials in the advertising/PR because they are "aspirational" but as I have written, with the exception of some coders in the S.F. Bay Area, Millennials are not the ones who are buying Revels.

[Robert Ryan]

Originally Posted by teck13

You are emphasizing my POV with your well stated post. It's difficult to get exact figures but the 2016 Top Markets Recreational Transportation Report says this, "Europe is the second largest global RV market after the United States." I know the type and class of vehicles sold differ and that RV numbers include everything from travel trailers to Class A's but lets conservatively assume U.S. and Europe Class B sales are is the same ballpark.

So then, why does Europe have more choice in layouts, designs and platforms. I worked in the automotive industry so I know vehicle regulations are different in the U.S. but still most of this is poor (or none) R&D, lazy product development and design, and little or zero smart marketing.

The bottom line is why are the RV companies in Europe listening to consumers and offering different vans for different customers while the big U.S. companies continue to offer slightly refreshed stuff from the 1970's?

It'a a matter of being a leader and getting in front of prospective customers versus inertia and just slightly refining what the current customers keep buying. Younger customers, including younger Boomers, Gen X and Millennials, want a van tipped more for couples and adventure. Not interested in the zillionth of a millimeter cherry "wood" floor to ceiling paneling and cabinetry and low hanging big "plastic" running boards and steps. Please. Give us a little ground clearance so we can get up and down forest service roads or better still 4X4 options. Realize there are two emerging groups of prospects. Weekenders and vacationers and those living part or full-time in their vans. These two groups have very different needs and requirements. Just bazaar that with the exception of Winnebago, the majors don't seem to understand or acknowledge any of this.

Thanks of listening, my frustration and rambling of the day.

Something that you want: compact, well finished and pretty good Off Road is what this Class C Builder has done using the NON-NA Ford Ranger
https://www.explorermotorhomes.com.au/gallery/
Another Class C but longer 20ft, Off Road/Dirt Road compatible and well finished is the Sunliner Habitat H1. NOT A Class Bhas a lot of the qualities that you want
http://www.australianmotorhomes.com....home-habitat-2

multiple image upload

[Mat Mobile]

Just curious if you made your choice teck13.

To me, it seems you have two choices: compromise or have a smaller van upfitter build a custom vehicle for you.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Mat Mobile

Just curious if you made your choice teck13.

To me, it seems you have two choices: compromise or have a smaller van upfitter build a custom vehicle for you.

Thanks for asking but we haven't made any decisions yet. Both of us work incredibly hectic schedules so I haven't have had as much time as I would like to sort this out. Over the last several months I have looked at many Class Bs. A lot at the Pleasanton RV show, and then several at dealers.

I have checked out, in person, the Aktiv 1.0 and 2.0, Roadtrek Agile and CS Adventurous, Winnebago Revel and Travato 59K and G, Pleasure-way Ascent and Lexor, Airsteam Interstate and Atlas (only as a frame of reference). I have also talked with Outside Van, ARV and Sportsmobile. Online I have checked out the Safari Condos. The only van I have driven is a 59K.

You are correct, and I knew this going in from all the reading and research I had done, it will be about compromise. I just didn't realize how much of a compromise and that is honestly, disappointing. The Revel is a great EXTREME sports van but we are looking for an adventure van for the two of us and our big white dog. We would like a van that facilitates mountain biking - getting to the trailheads all around the west and boondocking once there.

The compromise with the custom vans is time and money - in some case just huge crazy money. So we have essentially narrowed it down (at least for now ) to the Roadtrek Agile and Winnebago Travato 59K.

The Agile is 4X4 and has higher ground clearance which is huge for us but the compromise is an interior that is incredibly old fashioned and claustrophobic. We both really like the layout and openness of the Travato 59K. The large rear bath is a huge plus also. The slightly larger fridge, big galley that's functional enough to actually prepare a nice meal, and long beds all work well for us. The major compromise is not only the front wheel drive (no 4X4 available in the U.S.) but ground clearance of only a bit over 6". I'd really like eight or nine inches. Other than adding SumoSprings to the rear and possibly some slightly larger tires, there is not much that can be done to address this shortcoming for us.

The plan is to rent an Agile and a Travato in the next several weeks. The Agile for rent in this area was being repaired but is just now back and the Travatos available in NorCal seem to all be G's. That will be a good test for us.

What Class B do you have and are you happy with it?

[BillsPaseo]

Another option is to get a Paseo, send it to Quadvan and have it converted to 4WD (which also lifts it 2.5"), put some Alcoa rims on it to allow bigger tires (which gets you another inch of ground clearance) for a total clearance gain of 3.5".

[teck13]

Originally Posted by BillsPaseo

Another option is to get a Paseo, send it to Quadvan and have it converted to 4WD (which also lifts it 2.5"), put some Alcoa rims on it to allow bigger tires (which gets you another inch of ground clearance) for a total clearance gain of 3.5".

This is why I really value and enjoy this forum. I had not even considered a Winnebago Paseo option. At 22' city and town parking would be more of a problem but I like the layout/openness, bath size, four seasons capability, large fridge, etc. I also like the Ford engine a lot.

A while back I looked at having Whitefeather convert a Pleasure-Way to 4X4 and it was going to be $25,000 plus so I gave up on that idea. Now I will have to check to see how much to convert a Ford Transit to 4X4. Hopefully less?

Something new to think about now.

[BillsPaseo]

I think the Quadvan conversion is more like $15-16K. There is a lot of info on this conversion on the fordtransitusaforum.com forum. Paseos are selling for under $90K so when you add in the conversion cost, you still come in well under the cost of a Revel.

[BillsPaseo]

Also, if you are tall enough that the Paseo bed doesn't work for you, there is the Coachman CrossFit on the same chassis...

[Mat Mobile]

Originally Posted by teck13

What Class B do you have and are you happy with it?

I have a 1999 Roadtrek Versatile 200 on a Chevy Express platform. It's being heavily upgraded (suspension lift, roof rack, solar panels, etc.). Check out the link in my signature for latest on the build. I estimate only having about another month to finish most of the build.

We planned on taking it down the Pan American highway but have since decided to ship it to Europe next year instead with a side trip to Morocco.

I'm not a mountain biker but I can't wait to spend my time surfing and/or kayaking.

I purchased the van $20k and plan on putting $40k of upgrades because I'm having it done by reputable shops. Like you, I don't have time to do it myself. Plus we downsized to a condo so without a garage, it's just too much hassle going the DIY route (learned from experience).

For us, this was the best compromise. I can't afford a new RV and even if I did, it would not meet my requirements (lifted suspension, not "fancy looking", simple to maintain).

Would a similar route be good for you? For example, buying a gently used SS Agile (2015 or less), having the suspension upgraded and having a local woodworker/design team update the interior design to your liking.

There are tons of people doing updates on old RVs that require much more than a SS agile. Pinterest is full of them! Just search for RV remodel.

One thing is for sure, finding the "perfect rv" is pretty much impossible. When we started seriously looking we started with the idea of a Dodge Ram diesel pick-up with a Four Wheel Camper flat bed and couldn't find a decent used pick-up. Then we thought about a putting a Palomino camper on a service bed. Finally, my wife said "Why don't you just buy that Roadtrek you always wanted?" Isn't she the best?!?

And, BTW, the perfect RV now, won't necessarily be the perfect RV in 3-5 years. You have to be ready to change or adapt it to your needs along the way.

Hopefully my story helps you in your thought process. Keep us posted!

[Phoebe3]

Well, I was going to say that because the Paseo and Crossfit are on dual rear wheels, I don't believe they are suitable for conversion to 4WD, but I see Quigley will do it for about $13,000 USD.

Okanagan makes a B-class on the Transit single rear wheel, but I would add heavier springs. Perhaps that is part of the 4WD conversion from Quigley.

Note that the price from Quigley was for a new, unregistered van. http://www.quigley4x4.com/Portals/0/...-10-143426-897

Also, Ford sells AWD Transits in Europe and I expect they will be here in the US in a year or two.

[BillsPaseo]

Phoebe, there are two converters that I know of that will convert the Transit to 4WD - Quigley and Quadvan. I think Quigley has stopped doing conversions on used vans, and now only does vans ordered directly from Ford with their conversion. Quadvan will convert a used van. Both are similarly priced from what I've heard.

Also, DRW vs. SRW shouldn't matter since the conversion does not touch the rear axle. The front drivetrain is the same for both. The only thing that might be different is the rear driveshaft (just guessing on that), which likely has to be replaced as part of the conversion since a transfer case has to be added between the output of the transmission and the driveshaft.

[BillsPaseo]

BTW, I used to be really into rock crawling and had a highly modified Jeep, so I have lots of experience with offroading on difficult terrain. And I have no desire to take our Paseo onto trails that require that kind of offroading capability, but I do want to be able to access campsites along well graded forest roads where sometimes the access into the site is a little rough.

So my long term plan is the following:

1. Either the Foes Racing 2" lift or the VanCompass 2.5" lift
2. Alcoa rims
3. 30" all terrain tires (stock are 28" so this adds 1" of clearance)

This combined with the factory Limited Slip Differential that comes on the Paseo should get me anywhere I would be willing to take it. If I find I need just a little bit more, I might add an aftermarket front bumper and winch.

[Mat Mobile]

Originally Posted by BillsPaseo

BTW, I used to be really into rock crawling and had a highly modified Jeep, so I have lots of experience with offroading on difficult terrain. And I have no desire to take our Paseo onto trails that require that kind of offroading capability, but I do want to be able to access campsites along well graded forest roads where sometimes the access into the site is a little rough.

BillsPaseo brings up a very important point. As capable as your vehicle can be, unless you designed "the house" specifically from ground up for mild off-roading, you will not WANT to take it there. Just the noise is unbearable and you will always be clenching your teeth.

Just imagine taking your kitchen with all the cabinets and shaking it all at once while you're at the door looking out.

Just try out your rentals on bad dirt roads and you'll understand.

[Mat Mobile]

Here's another suggestion from Canada (so you save on currency): Overland Explorer.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Well, I was going to say that because the Paseo and Crossfit are on dual rear wheels, I don't believe they are suitable for conversion to 4WD, but I see Quigley will do it for about $13,000 USD.

Okanagan makes a B-class on the Transit single rear wheel, but I would add heavier springs. Perhaps that is part of the 4WD conversion from Quigley.

Note that the price from Quigley was for a new, unregistered van. http://www.quigley4x4.com/Portals/0/...-10-143426-897

Also, Ford sells AWD Transits in Europe and I expect they will be here in the US in a year or two.

As others have said, there are 4wd vans with dual rear wheels, factory and aftermarket. The comments that have been made about not choosing a duallie van for a rough road excursion type vehicle are because the dual rear wheels don't do as well for traction as single rear wheels do in four wheel drive vehicles. Nearly all serious excursion and military vehicles will have single wheels for that reason

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

the dual rear wheels don't do as well for traction as single rear wheels do in four wheel drive vehicles.

Why is this the case?

[Mfturner]

Tech13, +1 on renting.

Renting may feel like a lot of money that could be put towards purchase, but we have learned a lot about both ourselves and the equipment on each rental that research didn't tell us.