Who services your Mercedes Sprinter?

[booster]

I have said this several times before, but it bears repeating, I think.


If you really want to increase your engine life, which may or may not be worth the effort depending on how long the rest of the vehicle will last, the best, proven, and tested for decades, method is the add a prelubing system to the engine.


Essentially all high life engines, especially diesels as that is their niche, use prelubing so they are never oil starved at cold starts. Most of the data on engine wear report 50-80% reduction in engine wear, but and I have never seen any testing that said there wasn't a significant improvement.


I personally like the pump type prelubers, but the accumulators work well also. The pumps are more work to install because you have to get an oil source which means a pan fitting, and the accumulators require a much larger amount of oil in the system as a lot of it sits in the accumulator while driving.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

What we are hearing all the time is mostly conjecture, as Avanti says, but even the "measureables" in the oil debate are not really that much different. You can get oil analysis and an opinion from the test company as to remaining life of the oil, but exactly what the limits are for what they measure are pretty much the same type of thing as the mileage recommendations. At least he measurements of the oil are repeatable, though.


The only way to really tell if an interval is better than another is to have both intervals run in controlled circumstance with a large sample size, which even the OEMs and oil companies very likely don't even do.


The oil life monitors in vehicles are getting better, but they still don't take into account all of the things that vehicles see in daily life. They don't actually measure anything about the oil itself, just the conditions it is being run in, with the results into an algorithm. How well do the algorithms actually take into account "harsh conditions" which used to be the buzz for doing oil changes twice as often?


Do I trust engineers? Nope, because I am one I can tell you from personal experience, tested, that oil company and OEM vehicle manufactures have missed badly on oil in the past. When the change to SL, then SM, oil took place there was a reduction in antiscuff components like zinc to help prevent catalytic converter fouling. Scuffing is a big deal for metal on metal parts like non roller valve trains and camshafts, timing chains, oil pumps, etc so the older vehicles were most susceptible to lowered anitscuff additives. Those of us that had muscle car type hotrods were very concerned when it happened, and I personally called at least a half dozen oil manufacturers and Chrysler, as that was the vehicle brand I had. All said that there was no issue with the new oils because the "oil is better" and replacement additives just as good. My car ate 3 valvetrains in year that required full teardowns to repair on SM oil. It cost me many thousands of dollars and lots and lots of hours of work because you have to completely tear down an engine to scrub out metal particles from that kind of failure. At the time, both motorcycle oil and diesel oils were still high in antiscuff, so I changed to motorcycle oil at the last repair and had no problems after that, nor did anyone else I knew who did similar. Oil companies denied any responsibility, but then slowly started introducing "old car oils", "small engine oils", "high mileage oils" etc that had the old antiscuff additives, so they knew the caused the issues. Now they say not to use the latest oils on any engines with flat tappets or unrollerized valve trains, which is just the opposite of what they used to say.


I have no idea what the maximum amount of time that you can go between changes is, especially with a diesel. The whole concept of oil dilution from fuel in it would certainly indicate caution, I think. Doesn't MB even say to keep an eye on the oil level as an indicator of fuel in the oil? It would be very interesting to see if oil that was removed as soon as the level increased to noticeable levels would pass an oil analysis.


A couple of decades ago, I worked with an engineer who had worked at the local Ford assembly plant and he claimed that he was there for several the increases in oil change intervals and that is was all marketing as long intervals were good for sales, and the vehicles would still make it through the warranty period. I have no idea if that is true, but I wouldn't be surprised.



As for the time between "rules", I don't know that there really are any that can be truly counted on, but here in the frozen north, one of the best ways to tell is to pull off a breather hose or pcv valve and look for condensation and white glop buildup. If you are getting buildup, you need to change oil more often, or do a lot more high speed driving. I have seen fairly new vehicles with enough glop in the valve covers that it is kind of molded around the rockers.


I think a good test for those with diesels, especially, is to drain your oil into a clean container, preferably glass or transparent plastic, and let it sit for week. Look for fuel and/or water separation and if the darkening from top to bottom is quite uniform, by shining a bright light through the bottle. Sometimes you can get a real surprise that way, especially if you have a leaky injector or cylinder that isn't firing, or maybe a small coolant leak at a head gasket or intake manifold.

I don't know about you guys but, I'm following what's in my owner's manual. If that means I'm paying a little more, I'm OK with that.

I really do think that all this "tinkering" with the intervals making them longer is a hype to sell more cars to people and lure them into thinking it's lower maintenance.



https://www.machinerylubrication.com.../oil-breakdown

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I don't know about you guys but, I'm following what's in my owner's manual. If that means I'm paying a little more, I'm OK with that.

This is exactly what I have been advocating. I'm glad we agree on something. Everything Booster says about all sources of data being dubious is true. But, of all these sources, the OEM has (by far) access to the most data, and so is the least dubious.

I really do think that all this "tinkering" with the intervals making them longer is a hype to sell more cars to people and lure them into thinking it's lower maintenance.

Doesn't this directly contradict what you just said above? Or do you somehow believe that only the MY2011 manual is accurate?

https://www.machinerylubrication.com.../oil-breakdown

What is the relevance of this link?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I don't know about you guys but, I'm following what's in my owner's manual. If that means I'm paying a little more, I'm OK with that.

I really do think that all this "tinkering" with the intervals making them longer is a hype to sell more cars to people and lure them into thinking it's lower maintenance.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com.../oil-breakdown

I think if you read what I said, you will not find any recommendation to go longer than the recommended interval, but some comments that would indicate a need for more frequent oil changes, depending on conditions.



Mostly what I said is that IMO nobody really knows for sure how long you can go between changes as every case will be different. If you are in an area where vehicles rust out in 15 years, and you drive 10K miles a year, it is a waste of money to try to increase the engine life as you won't wear it out anyway. Similarly, if you are a service rep or traveling sales rep and putting on 40K miles a year, increasing life might be worth it, if more frequent really does extend life. Or it might be cheaper to extend past the interval if the long life oil crowd are right.



Personally, I tend pretty heavily to the more often side, but only because historically the cars I have been able to follow that were changed more often lasted longer, from what it appears. Miles at changes are all over the place for us, with DW's CRV getting two changes a year at 3-4K miles and my old Roadmaster once a year at 2-3K miles. The Roadtrek normally will get changed twice a year at about 3-5K miles plus a change before a long trip so I don't have to change it on the road. We have gone 7K on trips before it got changed when we got home, as quickly accumulating miles collect less stuff in the oil and the oil is at operating temps for a much higher % of the time compared to shorter trips around home.


The link you give is a pretty good description of of how industrial oil analysis goes. It is used a lot in big gearboxes and hydraulic systems a lot, as well as pumps, compressors, etc.


What is different from the vehicle oil analysis is the combustion products and fuel contaminations in most cases. What is also done differently is when you get a new piece of equipment and have it broken in properly, you then change the oils and send out a sample to be tested. I always wanted to use oil from the freshly changed and run a while crankcase as baseline because it had the leftover oil and contamination in it, where new oil doesn't and skews your baseline. Then you send a sample to be analyzed at regular intervals of hours that are recommended by the gearbox manufacturer. As the oil ages, you will usually get a "dogleg" of oxidative stress, viscosity loss, additive loss, etc, so when you see that point, you just go back a couple of intervals and use that for your preventative maintenance oil change interval. I used to like to send in a sample at every other oil change from then on, just to watch for consistency and to get some warning of upcoming failures.


One thing that I have noticed in the last few years is that there seems to be a fairly rapid increase in the number of vehicles that have to get the timing chains replaced. Some of it, I am sure, is because there are more engines with chains now than there used to be, but many are at pretty low mileage, often not much more than the timing belts would at.


I can't say what the causes may be for sure, but lubrication has always been a failure point on timing chains, so that is one possibility. Others could be the use of plastic guides, sprockets, and tensioners instead of metal or sprockets. The variable valve timing hardware may also be a contributor as tensions can change a lot.


Whatever the causes for the faster failures is, it wasn't supposed to happen. Customers were complaining about the excessive costs of changing timing belts every 60-90K miles, so they went to chains and claimed the never would need changing, but it just hasn't worked out that way in many cases.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by avanti

This is exactly what I have been advocating. I'm glad we agree on something. Everything Booster says about all sources of data being dubious is true. But, of all these sources, the OEM has (by far) access to the most data, and so is the least dubious.

Doesn't this directly contradict what you just said above? Or do you somehow believe that only the MY2011 manual is accurate?

What is the relevance of this link?

Mercedes Benz just arbitrarily increased the interval to 15k then 20k to sell vehicles to people who wanted less maintenance on the Sprinter. In my view.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

I think if you read what I said, you will not find any recommendation to go longer than the recommended interval, but some comments that would indicate a need for more frequent oil changes, depending on conditions.



Mostly what I said is that IMO nobody really knows for sure how long you can go between changes as every case will be different. If you are in an area where vehicles rust out in 15 years, and you drive 10K miles a year, it is a waste of money to try to increase the engine life as you won't wear it out anyway. Similarly, if you are a service rep or traveling sales rep and putting on 40K miles a year, increasing life might be worth it, if more frequent really does extend life. Or it might be cheaper to extend past the interval if the long life oil crowd are right.



Personally, I tend pretty heavily to the more often side, but only because historically the cars I have been able to follow that were changed more often lasted longer, from what it appears. Miles at changes are all over the place for us, with DW's CRV getting two changes a year at 3-4K miles and my old Roadmaster once a year at 2-3K miles. The Roadtrek normally will get changed twice a year at about 3-5K miles plus a change before a long trip so I don't have to change it on the road. We have gone 7K on trips before it got changed when we got home, as quickly accumulating miles collect less stuff in the oil and the oil is at operating temps for a much higher % of the time compared to shorter trips around home.


The link you give is a pretty good description of of how industrial oil analysis goes. It is used a lot in big gearboxes and hydraulic systems a lot, as well as pumps, compressors, etc.


What is different from the vehicle oil analysis is the combustion products and fuel contaminations in most cases. What is also done differently is when you get a new piece of equipment and have it broken in properly, you then change the oils and send out a sample to be tested. I always wanted to use oil from the freshly changed and run a while crankcase as baseline because it had the leftover oil and contamination in it, where new oil doesn't and skews your baseline. Then you send a sample to be analyzed at regular intervals of hours that are recommended by the gearbox manufacturer. As the oil ages, you will usually get a "dogleg" of oxidative stress, viscosity loss, additive loss, etc, so when you see that point, you just go back a couple of intervals and use that for your preventative maintenance oil change interval. I used to like to send in a sample at every other oil change from then on, just to watch for consistency and to get some warning of upcoming failures.


One thing that I have noticed in the last few years is that there seems to be a fairly rapid increase in the number of vehicles that have to get the timing chains replaced. Some of it, I am sure, is because there are more engines with chains now than there used to be, but many are at pretty low mileage, often not much more than the timing belts would at.


I can't say what the causes may be for sure, but lubrication has always been a failure point on timing chains, so that is one possibility. Others could be the use of plastic guides, sprockets, and tensioners instead of metal or sprockets. The variable valve timing hardware may also be a contributor as tensions can change a lot.


Whatever the causes for the faster failures is, it wasn't supposed to happen. Customers were complaining about the excessive costs of changing timing belts every 60-90K miles, so they went to chains and claimed the never would need changing, but it just hasn't worked out that way in many cases.

Without proper and clean lubrication... timing chain failure is disastrous.... timing chains are supposed to last the life of the vehicle.....

At least with a timing belt...it's a scheduled item....

I think it's once a year or mileage...in my case 10,000

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

Mercedes Benz just arbitrarily increased the interval to 15k then 20k to sell vehicles to people who wanted less maintenance on the Sprinter. In my view.

So, you are saying that it was done without underlying data to support it?

Why would you think this?

I understand the theory that automakers cynically just build to the warranty. But I have never seen any reason to believe this. There are at least two counter-arguments: (1) A reputation for reliability is generally considered to have a lot of value in the marketplace, especially for a marque like Mercedes; and (2) It is my understanding that dealer service is a huge profit center for the automakers. Increasing service intervals directly impacts this revenue stream. This weakens the "only care about the bottom line" argument.

I honestly believe that these changes are data driven, which is why I agree with your other argument that one should follow the OEM recommendations.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by booster

If you really want to increase your engine life, which may or may not be worth the effort depending on how long the rest of the vehicle will last, the best, proven, and tested for decades, method is the add a prelubing system to the engine.

Essentially all high life engines, especially diesels as that is their niche, use prelubing so they are never oil starved at cold starts.

How much wear do you think occurs after the oil & filter is changed and it takes several seconds for the oil filter to fill before pressure builds and the rest of the engine gets lubricated? This is one reason I do my own oil changes and I fill the filter with oil before I put it on the engine. This minimizes the amount of time the engine is oil starved.

[Ray B]

I am based out of Las Vegas and have a 2012 Sprinter 3500. I drive about 15,000 miles a year.

My Mercedes-Benz manual says 10,000-mile services (alternating A & B) with fuel filter changes at BOTH.

To answer the question of competence and charges, I have taken it once to the Mercedes-Benz Authorized Sprinter Service Center and once to a good independent shop which came highly recommended. The charges for an A-Service at the Sprinter Center was $901. The charges for a B-Service at the independent shop was $854. I found both to be equally competent.

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

How much wear do you think occurs after the oil & filter is changed and it takes several seconds for the oil filter to fill before pressure builds and the rest of the engine gets lubricated? This is one reason I do my own oil changes and I fill the filter with oil before I put it on the engine. This minimizes the amount of time the engine is oil starved.

I do the same with the oil filter as it is just plain silly not to. The longer you run without oil in the internals of the engine, the more wear you get. With a prefilled filter, my guess would be that wear would not be much, if any, more than a cold start because the engine has usually not been sitting as long as it normally would draining back.


The real bad for the engine starts are the ones at really cold temps. It is normal around here to have 5 seconds or more before the oil light goes out when it is -20F. You know it is not good for things when you hear the lifters clatter before the oil pressure comes up.


People would often laugh at the quite loud prelubing pump I had in my old Escort (it was a test for the pump manufacturer) as it would grind away for upwards of 10-15 seconds or more before the oil light went out in very cold weather. When the engine started, though, most everyone noticed that it ran totally silently immediately, with no internal engine noise.


The pump was put on that Escort very early on, within the first 1K miles, and I commuted it for 18.5 years and 210K miles without any engine repairs except wear items like timing belts, water pumps, and an alternator. At 200k, my jack stands broke through the rusty rear frame on both sides, so I knew time was running out for it, but continued to drive it as it was still safe. I did quit changing the oil at that point, though, just to see how much it would use as I had never had to add between changes. It went over 10K without adding oil, which is better than many new vehicles do, so pretty interesting. One day I came out to go to work and the Escort was sitting in middle of a big wet spot on the driveway. The rear brake lines had rusted bad enough to fail. At that point, I drove it carefully for the couple of miles to the junkyard. It was a totally used up vehicle with an engine that still tested as near new. Compression was mid spec and with 5 psi, oil pressure mid spec, no noises from engine.

[Belzar]

Low mileage is a "risk" factor so if only drive 10K or less per year, or leave van sitting for weeks at a time, additional maintenance beyond recommendation might be a good idea.

As far as "Mercedes Benz just arbitrarily increased the interval,,,": Much of their sales comes from "fleets", such as FedEx etc. who buy and maintain vehicles by the thousands. If data did not support MB procedures it would become apparent very quickly.

[engnrsrule]

My Dodge Dealership does 2 prepaid oil changes for $180. Haven't done much else with them yet but they also give me a nice printout of what is due and/or recommended, plus check for any recalls. I don't really mind if they cost a bit more because the size of the investment is much more than the family car...The size of the Sprinter is a challenge for a lot of independent places.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by avanti

So, you are saying that it was done without underlying data to support it?

Why would you think this?

I understand the theory that automakers cynically just build to the warranty. But I have never seen any reason to believe this. There are at least two counter-arguments: (1) A reputation for reliability is generally considered to have a lot of value in the marketplace, especially for a marque like Mercedes; and (2) It is my understanding that dealer service is a huge profit center for the automakers. Increasing service intervals directly impacts this revenue stream. This weakens the "only care about the bottom line" argument.

I honestly believe that these changes are data driven, which is why I agree with your other argument that one should follow the OEM recommendations.

DATA....OK.... maybe if you your vehicle was a FED EX....or driven 20,000 miles per year on the highway.... There's so many factors here... obviously highway miles are quite different...

What's your annual mileage?

As for increased mileage.... when you are out of warranty like I am.... more frequently servicing the engine especially is a good idea....tell me it's a bad idea...you can't..

Besides, your 2014 is probably a 2013 Mercedes ??? And isn't that part of the 10,000 miles interval?

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Belzar

Low mileage is a "risk" factor so if only drive 10K or less per year, or leave van sitting for weeks at a time, additional maintenance beyond recommendation might be a good idea.

As far as "Mercedes Benz just arbitrarily increased the interval,,,": Much of their sales comes from "fleets", such as FedEx etc. who buy and maintain vehicles by the thousands. If data did not support MB procedures it would become apparent very quickly.

For me...it's once per year or 10,000 miles.... besides, my owners manual says 10,000 ...

FEDEX has very deep pockets...they can afford to pay for whatever comes up....

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Ray B

I am based out of Las Vegas and have a 2012 Sprinter 3500. I drive about 15,000 miles a year.

My Mercedes-Benz manual says 10,000-mile services (alternating A & B) with fuel filter changes at BOTH.

To answer the question of competence and charges, I have taken it once to the Mercedes-Benz Authorized Sprinter Service Center and once to a good independent shop which came highly recommended. The charges for an A-Service at the Sprinter Center was $901. The charges for a B-Service at the independent shop was $854. I found both to be equally competent.

My independent garage just changed all my engine, transmission, all filters, including the air filter for $825 using all OEM parts.... that was a 20,000 miles service....

At 10,000 miles would have been closer to $250 or $300 and wouldn't need transmission service....

My independent mechanic charges me $100 per hour labor... while the local dealership charges $205 per labor... same parts higher cost.....

As long as I can get quality service why NOT??? He's been working on my other cars for over 20 years.... very qualified mechanic....

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

As for increased mileage.... when you are out of warranty like I am.... more frequently servicing the engine especially is a good idea....tell me it's a bad idea...you can't..

Actually, I think I can:
1) Waste of time
2) Waste of money
3) Environmentally irresponsible.

Besides, your 2014 is probably a 2013 Mercedes ??? And isn't that part of the 10,000 miles interval?

Nope. MY2014, as I have been specifying. OCI is 15K, which I do religiously.

As I have been saying repeatedly, you should most certainly do what you think best. We all got it the first time that you think that number is 10K miles. Fine with me. But, constantly repeating the unsupported and inconsistent advice to others that "I do what my manual says, buy you should do 10K" just isn't all that helpful.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

For me...it's once per year or 10,000 miles.... besides, my owners manual says 10,000 ...

FEDEX has very deep pockets...they can afford to pay for whatever comes up....

From what I understand and have heard, the fleets like Fedex don't have follow any of the big OEM rules. They just negotiate out of if when the sign their huge contracts. My guess would be that Fedex either does most warranty work themselves and gets reimbursed or they get a big reduction in price to self warranty. Their mechanics probably have more Sprinter experience than any MB shop. I would bet a lot that Fedex even has access to all the proprietary software and flashing tools that MB gaurds so closely.



You also would have to believe that all the fleets set their intervals by how they are used. A Sprinter used in a big northern city is going to need more frequent changes than one in Montana rural areas. The intervals would be determined by oil analysis and maybe an algorithm of use pattern.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

From what I understand and have heard, the fleets like Fedex don't have follow any of the big OEM rules. They just negotiate out of if when the sign their huge contracts. My guess would be that Fedex either does most warranty work themselves and gets reimbursed or they get a big reduction in price to self warranty. Their mechanics probably have more Sprinter experience than any MB shop. I would bet a lot that Fedex even has access to all the proprietary software and flashing tools that MB gaurds so closely.



You also would have to believe that all the fleets set their intervals by how they are used. A Sprinter used in a big northern city is going to need more frequent changes than one in Montana rural areas. The intervals would be determined by oil analysis and maybe an algorithm of use pattern.

Yes, exactly. And if I had access to that kind of data, I would ignore the OEM and follow the numbers, too. But I don't. My belief is that the average user has two rational options: (1) Oil analysis and (2) following the OEM recommendations. Both of these are rational, reality-based courses of action. Picking a random number out of the air because it feels good is not.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by avanti

Actually, I think I can:
1) Waste of time
2) Waste of money
3) Environmentally irresponsible.

Nope. MY2014, as I have been specifying. OCI is 15K, which I do religiously.

As I have been saying repeatedly, you should most certainly do what you think best. We all got it the first time that you think that number is 10K miles. Fine with me. But, constantly repeating the unsupported and inconsistent advice to others that "I do what my manual says, buy you should do 10K" just isn't all that helpful.

OK.... that's not the norm...as far as I know...

Most of the time you'll see that a company like Roadtrek uses last years vehicle to do the conversion.... could be an exception for you?

When did Mercedes Benz expand the mileage? What year??

You didn't mention anything about the FOUR CYLINDER or the 7 speed transmission??

How do you like it and what's your MPG??

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

OK.... that's not the norm...as far as I know...

Most of the time you'll see that a company like Roadtrek uses last years vehicle to do the conversion.... could be an exception for you?

My rig was a semi-custom build by Great West. I placed the order long in advance. They gave me a choice of a MY2013 or MY2014 chassis (at different prices, of course). I chose the latter because of the then-new safety features.

When did Mercedes Benz expand the mileage? What year??

You didn't mention anything about the FOUR CYLINDER or the 7 speed transmission??

How do you like it and what's your MPG??

The OM-651 drivetrain is a dream. It is a shame it is no longer available. I average just about 20MPG, a bit less in the mountains, a bit more on the plains.